The WoV Thread

[kewlJ]

In response to KewlJ:

1.) Unlike MDawg, Professor Slots is directly selling something, namely his book, online course (or whatever the hell you would call it) and hourly one-on-ones for $297/hour. Also, in my opinion, he is targeting perhaps the most myth-oriented segment of gamblers out there---slot machine players.

Ok so Singer sold a book (or was it two)? He also claims to have trained hundreds of people, although he can produce not a one. If he did train anyone of give private "lessons" you can bet it wasn't for free. He also used forums, Alan and his little videos, and the Gambling Today column to promote this 'system' and books.

Now Mdawg hasn't written a book that I know of, but there are at least 2 members at WoV that say they have received private instructions from Mdawg. Most of us believe one or both are/were sockpuppets. But Mdawg is a wealth man. This isn't about money for him, like it was Singer and these youtubers. Whether someone writes a book, or otherwise profits (wasn't the Blackjack Army dude sort of selling memberships into the Blackjack Army?) is almost irrelevant to me. The outcome is the intentional misleading and harming of players. THAT is what I object to.

[redietz]

In response to KewlJ:

1.) Unlike MDawg, Professor Slots is directly selling something, namely his book, online course (or whatever the hell you would call it) and hourly one-on-ones for $297/hour. Also, in my opinion, he is targeting perhaps the most myth-oriented segment of gamblers out there---slot machine players.

2.) ProfessorSlots was brought to my attention in a thread started by OdiousGambit, so it's not really the sort of information that I would be seeking out to know that there was anything to even call out.

I mean, if we're going to discuss who should be called out and who shouldn't---at least in terms of priority, then I'm going to start with people who are directly profiting on selling myths to a segment of players already strongly inclined to believe in myths. When you have a gambling message board, then it's my opinion that it's important to call certain things out in terms of the math, but you have to be really careful about shutting down someone who is talking about gambling and reporting results because that's a slippery slope if you're going to sanction anyone for that. People can try to replicate MDawg's (reported) results if they want to, and probably to their own peril, but he's not selling any information that is purported to teach people how to beat Baccarat.

I think Mission is hypnotized by the uber capitalist notion that all resources are material resources. If a YouTube nut doesn't sell something for cash, it's somehow less of a flim flam than if he uses his scam to trade for notoriety (that can used to promote other things or acquire other things), prestige, or everyday stuff like sex. if a YouTube slots prof gets laid more often because he's flim flamming, somehow that doesn't count much in Mission's world.

Most of human interaction traffics in NON-material resources like prestige, reputation, or access to mates and on and on and on. There's more ways to get laid than with a credit card.

[Mission146]

In response to KewlJ:

1.) Unlike MDawg, Professor Slots is directly selling something, namely his book, online course (or whatever the hell you would call it) and hourly one-on-ones for $297/hour. Also, in my opinion, he is targeting perhaps the most myth-oriented segment of gamblers out there---slot machine players.

2.) ProfessorSlots was brought to my attention in a thread started by OdiousGambit, so it's not really the sort of information that I would be seeking out to know that there was anything to even call out.

I mean, if we're going to discuss who should be called out and who shouldn't---at least in terms of priority, then I'm going to start with people who are directly profiting on selling myths to a segment of players already strongly inclined to believe in myths. When you have a gambling message board, then it's my opinion that it's important to call certain things out in terms of the math, but you have to be really careful about shutting down someone who is talking about gambling and reporting results because that's a slippery slope if you're going to sanction anyone for that. People can try to replicate MDawg's (reported) results if they want to, and probably to their own peril, but he's not selling any information that is purported to teach people how to beat Baccarat.

I think Mission is hypnotized by the uber capitalist notion that all resources are material resources. If a YouTube nut doesn't sell something for cash, it's somehow less of a flim flam than if he uses his scam to trade for notoriety (that can used to promote other things or acquire other things), prestige, or everyday stuff like sex. if a YouTube slots prof gets laid more often because he's flim flamming, somehow that doesn't count much in Mission's world.

Most of human interaction traffics in NON-material resources like prestige, reputation, or access to mates and on and on and on. There's more ways to get laid than with a credit card.

Why are you allowed to reference me in a post? You asked me to leave you alone and I have complied entirely.

[Mission146]

In response to KewlJ:

1.) Unlike MDawg, Professor Slots is directly selling something, namely his book, online course (or whatever the hell you would call it) and hourly one-on-ones for $297/hour. Also, in my opinion, he is targeting perhaps the most myth-oriented segment of gamblers out there---slot machine players.

Ok so Singer sold a book (or was it two)? He also claims to have trained hundreds of people, although he can produce not a one. If he did train anyone of give private "lessons" you can bet it wasn't for free. He also used forums, Alan and his little videos, and the Gambling Today column to promote this 'system' and books.

Now Mdawg hasn't written a book that I know of, but there are at least 2 members at WoV that say they have received private instructions from Mdawg. Most of us believe one or both are/were sockpuppets. But Mdawg is a wealth man. This isn't about money for him, like it was Singer and these youtubers. Whether someone writes a book, or otherwise profits (wasn't the Blackjack Army dude sort of selling memberships into the Blackjack Army?) is almost irrelevant to me. The outcome is the intentional misleading and harming of players. THAT is what I object to.

1.) Singer isn't active anymore---who is even talking about him in this thread, in this context? If you can show me that Singer is selling seminars now, then I will get right on that. Also, he does claim to have trained hundreds of people, but did he make any claims to the effect that he was doing it for money? I honestly don't know. Was it a partial free roll type of thing?

Either way, Singer doesn't seem to be active in the writing or training capacities anymore, so I don't see how my not writing an article about him is relevant.

Singer says that he was not compensated for his Gambling Today articles, and further, that he was offered (and refused) compensation. What Gambling Today publishes is on their heads. Like I suggested before, it's win-win for them, because if someone had tried Singer's methods and had gotten massacred and started complaining to GT, then they could just make a huge public production about him being dismissed from the publication.

As far as selling books, and I know this is a really weak defense, but you literally cannot publish a book unless you plan to sell it. The publishers simply aren't going to put out a full-length book for free. That said, maybe reviewing Singer's book would make for a fun article and I would offer him an interview (probably by phone) for a follow-up article if he wishes to debate anything I have to say about his book.

Similarly, Alan can publish what he wants to publish.

2.) As far as MDawg goes, you guys don't want to advance mathematically-based arguments, for the most part. It seems that most things have been with an eye towards compelling WoV just to shut him down completely. Shutting someone down doesn't do anything to prove the party being shut down wrong---which is why I would review something like Professor Slots or Singer's book. If I am going to intellectually prevail, then I must be willing to have an open dialogue with people in a neutral setting...or as neutral a setting as reasonable.

The two WoV members in question:

A.) Have also been accused, perhaps by you even, as possibly being sockpuppets of MDawg anyway! You pointed that out. Okay, if they are perhaps sockpuppets who solicited advice from him, then what difference does him giving the advice make? Is he sending initial PM's to people purported to tell them how to beat Baccarat? THAT is something I would be concerned about. If people read his thread...which, in terms of substance, is really only results and decide to seek his advice out, then that's on them.

B.) Made no mention of any financial arrangement.

C.) Why Singer again? We know he wrote the article for free. He claims he was offered pay and declined. As far as books...you certainly aren't going to see me write a gambling book with an eye to profit. Writing my articles is more profitable than I could ever hope for a book to be.

D.) As far as, "Misleading and harming players," goes---it's a fair point that giving misinformation is fundamentally wrong, but to me, it's made worse when you're charging people for your misinformation. I'm astounded you don't see a difference.

[kewlJ]

I think Mission is hypnotized by the uber capitalist notion that all resources are material resources. If a YouTube nut doesn't sell something for cash, it's somehow less of a flim flam than if he uses his scam to trade for notoriety (that can used to promote other things or acquire other things), prestige, or everyday stuff like sex. if a YouTube slots prof gets laid more often because he's flim flamming, somehow that doesn't count much in Mission's world.

Most of human interaction traffics in NON-material resources like prestige, reputation, or access to mates and on and on and on. There's more ways to get laid than with a credit card.

There are hidden, less known ways to monetize any kind of scam or voodoo bullshit.

In the blackjack community and forums, there was a guy who ran an unusual scam, I am not going to post his name or handle because last I heard he was in very poor health and may have passed, but some of the blackjack guys will know of whom I am speaking. Let's call him professor blackjack, just to have something to reference him by.

So Professor blackjack, was an actual professor and doctor, teaching at a university for most of his life. He was a lifelong losing gambler by his own admission. His poison was craps and horse racing. When he retired, I believe early in his 50's he took up blackjack card counting. He claims to have been a professional player for 20 years that followed, a second career if you will. Although the reality was he was living off his retirement, while his wife was still working and not so much his blackjack winnings. (Does that wife working part while the husband gambles sound familiar?)

So on the forums, professor blackjack was a proponent of a specific level 2 count. Nothing wrong with that. But he took it to the extent of repeatedly claiming all other counts, including the count that I and all the successful blackjack teams played, didn't work and the only was way to win was using the count he was a proponent of. He then began soliciting newer players to privately "mentor" them (his word) for supposedly a small fee or a meal on them. Seemed like a good guy, wanting to help newer players. The forum owners and administrators overlooked the small fee because it was nominal.

So next thing you know the story was circulating (unproven as far as I know, but many legitimate AP's seemed to know about it) that professor blackjack had formed a team of his "students", newer players that he mentored, and these players had combined a bankroll that he controlled. And low and behold professor blackjack was robbed of this 6 figure bankroll when no one else was around to dispute it.

I cannot verify the story is true, although there are some very credible AP's that seem to know. But the point is there are many ways to monetize a scam that are less obvious that selling a book.

[Mission146]

I think Mission is hypnotized by the uber capitalist notion that all resources are material resources. If a YouTube nut doesn't sell something for cash, it's somehow less of a flim flam than if he uses his scam to trade for notoriety (that can used to promote other things or acquire other things), prestige, or everyday stuff like sex. if a YouTube slots prof gets laid more often because he's flim flamming, somehow that doesn't count much in Mission's world.

Most of human interaction traffics in NON-material resources like prestige, reputation, or access to mates and on and on and on. There's more ways to get laid than with a credit card.

Anyway, I can respond to this because I am the subject of the entire post.

I do not believe that all resources are material resources, but I do believe that money is a quantifiable resource. How do you quantify getting laid aside from the number of people, or would it be the number of times...does getting laid by the same person multiple times have a declining value per occurrence?

Prestige and reputation? Maybe it has more to do with the fact that I don't give a shit about prestige and reputation other than to the extent that I can monetize it. For me, writing my articles and part-time AP is more than sufficient because I don't care that much about money anyway. I also didn't write anything in order to gain, "Prestige and reputation;" never have. Don't really care. I write things that are right because they are right and the rest follows. I fill the niche of gambling readers who actually want good information and write other things for a general gambling audience.

In my view, you don't look at things such as prestige, reputation, notoriety or access to mates any differently than you do currency. Who is the slave to Capitalism? You want to take Capitalistic concepts and apply them to every single resource (whether or not even quantifiable) and essentially boil all human interactions and motivation down to have some kind of motive of gain in mind---and I'm supposed to have an Uber-Capitalist view? I don't think so. I look at those other things as totally separate.

For example, if I go out into the world and treat people politely---it's not because I think that will translate into better social relationships, potential job offers, standing in the community---or anything along those lines. Not only do I not give a shit about any of those things, but I also have more social relationships than I actually want. I do it because it's the best way to behave and all of us assholes could more easily coexist if we all took that view.

Just yesterday, some dude (who was in the wrong) was yelling and cussing the clerk of a convenience store when the customer was clearly in the wrong. I said, "Hey, buddy, if you don't moderate your tone, there's a fair chance of me getting up off of this stool and whipping your ass. You want to raise your voice, raise your voice, but if I hear you call that guy a fucking idiot again, you're going to have a problem that you don't want." The fuck does defending a clerk at a convenience store get me? I have no plans to ever apply there. I did it because that's not how you treat people who are captive to where they are employed.

Seriously, imagine that guy calls the cops and says I threatened him; now, I have to explain why what I said was legally not a threat. What do you think I got out of that? The respect and admiration of a convenience store clerk? The fuck do I care if he respects and admires me? He said he appreciated me calming the guy down; the fuck do I care what he does or doesn't appreciate?

[kewlJ]

D.) As far as, "Misleading and harming players," goes---it's a fair point that giving misinformation is fundamentally wrong, but to me, it's made worse when you're charging people for your misinformation. I'm astounded you don't see a difference.

Come on Mission, get real. There is no difference to a player that reads this bullshit and loses money that he can't afford to lose following these bogus systems.

It is a guarantee that players read both Singer and Mdawgs claims and lost money trying to duplicate claims that were bogus. On this forum we know of one such guy, slingshot, who seems to have disappeared. You can bet your ass there are more just too embarrassed to admit it.

Based on Mdawgs claims including 102 winning days out of 107, Guaranteed there are players that tried to duplicate his "system" of betting up into a streak. Do you know what nonsense that is? How does anyone know when a streak is coming? There are the same parlaying or progression betting systems, for blackjack or roulette that Mdawg is touting. They don't work. Proven so a million times. Parleying and progressive betting cannot overcome negative expectation. Even as he allowed Mdawg to make his preposterous claims, even Wizard occasionally restated that.

Mission, I really think part of your problem is that you were only present for parts of these discussions. While you are around a little more regularly now, in the past you popped in and out for months at a time. It's like asking a juror to be present every other day of the trial and then render a verdict.

[jbjb]

I'd prefer MORE of these losers following advice by Singer, Dawg, etc., in casinos. Not less.

[Mission146]

D.) As far as, "Misleading and harming players," goes---it's a fair point that giving misinformation is fundamentally wrong, but to me, it's made worse when you're charging people for your misinformation. I'm astounded you don't see a difference.

Come on Mission, get real. There is no difference to a player that reads this bullshit and loses money that he can't afford to lose following these bogus systems.

It is a guarantee that players read both Singer and Mdawgs claims and lost money trying to duplicate claims that were bogus. On this forum we know of one such guy, slingshot, who seems to have disappeared. You can bet your ass there are more just too embarrassed to admit it.

Based on Mdawgs claims including 102 winning days out of 107, Guaranteed there are players that tried to duplicate his "system" of betting up into a streak. Do you know what nonsense that is? How does anyone know when a streak is coming? There are the same parlaying or progression betting systems, for blackjack or roulette that Mdawg is touting. They don't work. Proven so a million times. Parleying and progressive betting cannot overcome negative expectation. Even as he allowed Mdawg to make his preposterous claims, even Wizard occasionally restated that.

Mission, I really think part of your problem is that you were only present for parts of these discussions. While you are around a little more regularly now, in the past you popped in and out for months at a time. It's like asking a juror to be present every other day of the trial and then render a verdict.

Okay, so you have a player who is following misinformation that goes out and loses money vs. a player following misinformation that he paid for and someone profited off of that goes out and loses money; and you're telling me there's not a difference between the two things? Do you go to casinos to card count or do you correct misinformation that is being freely given the whole time because I guarantee that, if you spend five minutes in the Table Games pit, that you're going to hear misinformation on Blackjack at least once during that time if the casino is busy.

The profit motive is what takes it from being a mere sharing of an opinion (whether or not the speaker actually believes that opinion) to an act with malice intent, and I think it could be argued, the intent to defraud. I guess charging someone with fraud for selling misinformation could turn into a slippery slope in venues outside of gambling, though...you'd also need to disclaim things more heavily than is currently standard.

The profit motive is also the mechanism by which one person is taking advantage of suckers. Otherwise, what do you have, some vague notion of, "Reputation?" If I want to go to my local independent coffeeshop and get a cup of coffee, can I say, "Oh, hey, some people consider me an average gambling writer who posts factual stuff," no...I have to pull out the money I make from doing that and pay for it. The only people with enough, "Reputation," sufficient that they can pay for their coffee with it also tend to have plenty enough money to afford their coffee anyway.

How would you even duplicate MDawg's methods? I don't even think that he has implied anything specific enough (particularly not in open posts) to actually be followed in a particular way. Singer's methods, at least as far as I can understand, are largely repeatable. I guess I'll know more after I read the book.

If people make a stupid choice to believe in and follow myths, then that's their lookout. Every once in awhile, maybe something that I have written will actually prevent such action, or help someone, but probably not.

Another thing that you're looking at is that your focus is entirely on the people following the myths. While I care about them, there's really nothing that I can say that they will believe or that is going to help them...if it wasn't one of the purveyors of the myths, then they would follow some other one. That's why my concern is on the people with a tendency to prey upon the people inclined to believe in the myths so that they can get their slice from them...that is the truly despicable behavior. So, if someone is accusing me of looking at that aspect through a Capitalist lens, I sure the fuck am.

Of course I know what nonsense the streak betting is and have said so.

The nice thing about NFL Season is that it forces me to be around regularly...and if I'm on the computer, then I might as well get some work done. LOL. They say the hardest step is the first one. Who are they? I don't know. They might not even say that. I should really be on meds.

[Mission146]

One other thing is that I try to take a charitable enough view of people that I don't ascribe motivations to their actions unless I can actually prove them.

Why does MDawg post what he posts? Well, he certainly seems to enjoy posting it and...if he would say that he doesn't like to brag...would certainly at least allow that many people would see his posts as bragging. Other than that, though, for what reason does he do it? Does he do it for reputation? Is this something of a diary for him that he can go back and look upon at some point in the future? Is he playing the long game trying to build a brand? Does he simply think it's fun? Does he think it would be amusing to get people to believe in streak betting?

See...so I'm not inclined to guess at to any one, or any combination, of possible motivations. Why would I care to guess as to that?

When someone is selling something, that's a motivation that I don't have to guess. Slot Professor sells one on one consultations for $297/hour. No guessing required.

Why do you post freely about card counting, KewlJ? Why did you try to freely help aspiring new card counters? You openly admit that more successful card counters to be out there would be bad for you as would result in countermeasures.

Personally, gun to my head, your motivations are probably about the same as mine were. I lucked my way into a paying outlet, but if I weren't getting paid, I wouldn't be doing this anymore. But, I'd only guess with a gun to my head, because your motivations are of no real concern to me and it wouldn't be right for me to guess. Some people would say that you're trying to build reputation, or alternatively, just trying to show off how smart you are. I don't personally believe that, but other people could say that and might believe it.

You're not charging for anything, but even if you were, it would be fine because the thing you are charging for is correct...it's just on the user to use the information correctly. The point is, with affairs of money, you can point to someone charging for misinformation and say, "There's this dickhead's motive!" What else could the motive be? I'm not calling Slot Professor a dickhead, however, because I actually think he believes the better part of what he is saying.

[kewlJ]

Okay, so you have a player who is following misinformation that goes out and loses money vs. a player following misinformation that he paid for and someone profited off of that goes out and loses money; and you're telling me there's not a difference between the two things? Do you go to casinos to card count or do you correct misinformation that is being freely given the whole time because I guarantee that, if you spend five minutes in the Table Games pit, that you're going to hear misinformation on Blackjack at least once during that time if the casino is busy.

This is all true. I am not looking to change the world, to protect every unknowing player/person from scams and scammers. Some of that is on them to figure things out. But I just don't want them bombarded with mis-information that can't at least be challenged. I just feel like gambling forums, especially a gambling forum like WoV started by and still run by (although not owned) by a guy consider the Gambling math expert, a guy who when he started the business said it was about helping players to be better gamblers, well that forum should be a sacred place where this kind of intentional misinformation, has to at least be allowed to be challenged regularly and pushed back on by real players and what I call "math guys".

It isn't about silencing anyone or having anyone banned. But legitimate challenges and push back HAS to be allowed by those of us that this is important to (jbjb excluded )

In hindsight I thought Wizards solution of moving Mdawgs claims, and mind you these are claims made every single day when he post his new accounts of play, but moving these claims to the "betting systems section" and then hiding them from view, but still accessible to everyone who went to that subsection, was a fair compromise. I don't want to pick on Mike, but unfortunately Mdawg talked and bullied him out of that solution later.

[kewlJ]

Why does MDawg post what he posts? Well, he certainly seems to enjoy posting it and...if he would say that he doesn't like to brag...would certainly at least allow that many people would see his posts as bragging. Other than that, though, for what reason does he do it? Does he do it for reputation? Is this something of a diary for him that he can go back and look upon at some point in the future? Is he playing the long game trying to build a brand? Does he simply think it's fun? Does he think it would be amusing to get people to believe in streak betting?

I will give you that Mdawg is different that all these other scammers in that he isn't about making money. He is wealthy. I guess only he can tell you what it is really about. he is a wealthy dude, who likes to gamble. Loses overall. Gets nice comps and concessions. But losses overall, and for some reason, wants to convince everyone that he is a winning player, defying the math, on top of it.

I don't know if you want to argue this, but it is almost certain that he is a former banned member at WoV, using a new account/handle. WoV used to be top notch in identifying sockpuppets and second accounts. I don't know what happened that they now seem to look the other way. Was it BBB that was the tech savy mod that was so good at that? Or has technology changed with the VPN's that it is now harder to do. We had this discussion with Dan Druff, who is still able to see through VPN's to identify multiple accounts and when he can't he requires members to unmask for a post so he can see IP addresses. WoV, post BBB either has fallen behind on this, or just no longer cares.

So this is just my opinion, but I really believe the motivation behind the whole Mdawg fiasco was to make a mockery of both WoV and Wizard personally. If you consider that, he was a great success, driving away many legitimate long- time players and members in the process.

That is my theory, but it is only a theory. It doesn't even really matter. What matters is if a member shows up claiming winning, winning, winning, for months on end, playing a -EV game, by altering his wagers and betting up during winning hand streaks, I or anyone else that has the desire has to be able to push back and say that is voodooism and not the way things work.

[Mission146]

KewlJ,

I'm going to be really honest with you and offer the true reason that I am not concerned with MDawg's claims---I don't strongly believe that there is anyone (especially before amendments to totals were made) that could read what he posted and actually believe that anything constituted a repeatable and reliable method. Most of the claims that you see when it comes to, "System Scammers," (I'm not suggesting MDawg is one) is dressed up in math that is presented in such a way as to obfuscate the truth, or as I said in the Professor Slots article, you sandwich the bullshit between two slices of credible bread...man, I suck at analogies.

The point is that the whole thing gets presented in a way as to ring credible and verifiably true. It's also targeted generally enough that everyone could at least go out and attempt to do it. Who is MDawg convincing to do what? Most people don't even have his bankroll, for one thing. The second thing is that he hasn't presented anything that I would look at as being particularly repeatable...if there's a mechanical method at all (and I don't think there is), then that method is only hinted at. Finally, I look at his claims before the partial modification/retraction as being fantastical and fanciful. In other words, I can't comprehend how anyone even could read his posts and conclude that they reflected some sort of winning method.

In fact, I specifically said that the thing that would most piss me off is if there was some actual AP method afoot that was NOT being disclosed. Other than that, it just seems to me that anyone could read his claims and immediately write them off as being either not completely true, some results as being omitted or as just a matter of someone getting, 'Lucky.' As I said before, nothing about what he claimed...at least, mostly, was in mathematically borderline impossible territory. Highly improbable, sure.

When I look at people who are deliberately misinforming others for financial (or other) type of gain, the first thing that I look for is that sandwich of credibility or statements that at least read as though they could be true on face. I mean, that's where the shit that people are going to believe is going to be hiding---at least, the shit that people could be excused for buying into. If someone like Mitchell gets his hooks in someone, then the mark/sucker in that instance is just a fucking idiot. Mitchell's stuff isn't even dressed up as anything within factual reason. It's just nonsense. If someone is already stupid, wanting to gamble AND wanting to buy into myths and systems...there's really nothing I can do for them, anyway. If it's not Mitchell, then it will be someone else. It also seems that Mitchell is being more than taken care of, so my assistance is not needed on that one.

As far as hiding the stuff in, "Betting Systems," and removing from Recent Posts, that was actually something that I presented (here) as a potential solution before it even happened. I have no idea what Wizard's motivations were for unhiding that thread and make no claims as to having any idea why he would do so. As before, I find the thread easy enough to disregard and that is indeed what I do.

Far as I can tell, MDawg is not selling anything and is not doing anything with an eye towards selling anything down the line. In the event that ever changes, you can be quite confident I will have something to say on the matter.

[Mission146]

I will give you that Mdawg is different that all these other scammers in that he isn't about making money. He is wealthy. I guess only he can tell you what it is really about. he is a wealthy dude, who likes to gamble. Loses overall. Gets nice comps and concessions. But losses overall, and for some reason, wants to convince everyone that he is a winning player, defying the math, on top of it.

I don't know if you want to argue this, but it is almost certain that he is a former banned member at WoV, using a new account/handle. WoV used to be top notch in identifying sockpuppets and second accounts. I don't know what happened that they now seem to look the other way. Was it BBB that was the tech savy mod that was so good at that? Or has technology changed with the VPN's that it is now harder to do. We had this discussion with Dan Druff, who is still able to see through VPN's to identify multiple accounts and when he can't he requires members to unmask for a post so he can see IP addresses. WoV, post BBB either has fallen behind on this, or just no longer cares.

So this is just my opinion, but I really believe the motivation behind the whole Mdawg fiasco was to make a mockery of both WoV and Wizard personally. If you consider that, he was a great success, driving away many legitimate long- time players and members in the process.

That is my theory, but it is only a theory. It doesn't even really matter. What matters is if a member shows up claiming winning, winning, winning, for months on end, playing a -EV game, by altering his wagers and betting up during winning hand streaks, I or anyone else that has the desire has to be able to push back and say that is voodooism and not the way things work.

I can't establish that MDawg is losing overall other than to say that all of his bets, as far as I can tell, come at an overall expected loss. Could he be up a few hundred grand after several months in Vegas? It's certainly mathematically possible. As you point out, it at least seems that one of his main concerns is that he is perceived as a winning player, so people can take from that whatever they want to. I wouldn't say that the mere act of winning is sufficient to deny the math and we did eventually get a retraction to the effect that he might be up or down a little bit.

When was WoV ever, "Top-Notch," at identifying sock puppets or other handles? It certainly was not when I was an Administrator. My entire standard was that I either had an IP Match or I didn't. Nathan, for example, I had enough circumstantial stuff (I did a small amount of digging) to have dead to rights on sock puppetry, but my standard was an IP match.

I couldn't tell you what BBB's methods were because IP Match was the standard anytime I was an Admin on there. If she wanted to ban someone for sock puppetry on any grounds other than an IP Match, then I would have told her that she has to absolutely prove her case to my satisfaction. Again, with Nathan, I was 100% sure that there were socks...but I tied my own hands with my own standard of proof. Basically, I had Nathan as other socks because of the IP's associated with that general area that were all the same cell phone provider. Like I said, could basically NOT be a coincidence. Nathan, whatever you want to say about her, was definitely smart enough to avoid logging into any sockpuppets (or, as Nathan) using a matching IP. It would have only taken one slip up, such as still being on an IP belonging to one of the others and navigating to the site (or already having it up whilst still being logged in) on the IP that account was not supposed to be on.

Actually, the one time that I might have banned someone without having an IP Match, BBB didn't want to do that, so go figure. I hope that's not seen as me throwing her under the bus because I did not even so much as hint at such a thing when she was still active on the site and when I resigned.

I think the VPN's could be an issue. Another thing that I will say when it comes to sock puppets is that BBB checked for IP matches for every single new member of the site almost religiously. For my part, you would have to at least be on the verge of trolling for me to even check for an IP match on you.

[mickeycrimm]

You attacked him yesterday. He hasn't responded yet. Now you say if he attacks you back it will be him that is starting the shit? You're an idiot.

No, YOU are an idiot. AND a hypocrite. YOU attacked him for years. And for good reason. Now you want to be like "Oh poor Rob. He is unfairly getting picked on". Bullshit! I have never been anything but respectful to you. Look what I get in return. Read your signature line. You drag me into your feud with Maxpen....every single time you post. Fuck you. If anybody is anybody's dicklicker and ass kisser, it is YOU being Singer's bitch.

You're a fucking assclown. You call me an idiot then tell me you have been nothing but respectful to me then tell me I'm Singer's bitch. Dude, you are fucked up.

[mickeycrimm]

Manservant Mickey is back.

Redietz, mcraps post here fits your definition of trolling. Since you aligned yourself with KJ you must be his manservant.

[mickeycrimm]

You are wrong mickey. It is usually Singer that starts it up again.

Redietz, if you are honest with yourself you know that everytime Singer took a break from this forum, sometimes for months, you and KJ attacked him incessantly anyway. You two trolls are addicted to it. And per the usual KJocchio makes up his owns "facts."

[Mission146]

Mickey;

I missed the last page of that linked E-Mail...what the hell is he talking about that he and his members have looked into it and not found advantage plays!? They only seem to have advantage plays?

That guy is delusional and flatly wrong. You and I can demonstrate any number of advantages that are not only advantages, but are 100% wins. Is he really suggesting that, with an extreme example like a Golden Egypt with free Wilds for a spin on any two of the first three reels that a person is NOT at an advantage? How the hell can he figure that? Regal Riches one away on any of them? A Must-Hit one penny away from hitting?

I'm picking extreme examples just because those are definitely advantages every time. I guess technically someone could lose on a Regal Riches yellow one away, but that's going to happen---what? One time in a few thousand? If there are advantages that can conceivably be found, which there definitely are, then there are variable returns that exist somewhere between that and the worst possible game state...so the objective is to find the play states in between the worst and best case scenarios and try to identify which ones are advantageous.

This guy doesn't want any part of me in a debate; I'm sure of that much. It was already bad for him, but just reading that last E-Mail section, he is totally fucked if he tries me.

[mickeycrimm]

I guess when you have a nine inch cock, a former career as a 007 and a working relationship with Mossad you can pretty much rule internet forums.

Or a very bitter old man, with none of that, no money, no home, a small, shriveled pecker he can't even get hard, mooching off his kids, angry about his life decisions, gambling addiction and where he has ended up in life.....with nothing.

I feel sorry for him, but am just sick of his shit of being a complete prick towards everyone because he fucked up and made bad decisions. If you are that miserable that you can only be a complete prick to everyone, just die already.

Redietz, this post by KJocchio fits your troll definition to a tee.

KJ has no clue if Singer is a bitter old man. That phrase "old man" is a slur.

KJocchio has no clue of Singer's monetary worth yet he calls him broke.

Says Singer is homeless without any evidence.

Says Singer mooches off his kids. KJocchio has no clue on that either.

And angry KJocchio says Singer is angry. LOL!

Says Singer is a gambling addict. KJ has no evidence of that either.

KJocchio has no evidence to back any of it up. It's pure out trolling, redietz. And you are aligned with KJocchio. So you must be his manservant.

[mickeycrimm]

That's awesome, thanks for the pop!

I'm already getting feedback. Several people have liked the article. One guy commented that Professor Slots probably makes more than slot AP's because of all the gullible people in the world.

What was he talking about in that quoted E-Mail? His site may not be more popular than WoO/WoV (and never will be), but I'm pretty confident comparing his Youtube channel to my articles will show that he's well more than 10x more popular than I (personally) am already.

Some people want to have delusions created/fed for them...delusion will always be more popular than cold, hard, facts. That's why religion does so well. In a few years, I'll still be right and he'll still (probably) be delusional...doesn't matter what his site does.

It sure does say a lot that he doesn't defend his methods, but rather goes straight to personal popularity.

The Nutty Professor blocks anyone on Twitter that tries to get him in a debate on whether his methods work. I sent him a link to the WoV thread about him and suggested he join the conversation. But my guess is he will avoid all contact with knowledgeable gamblers.