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Thread: The WoV Thread

  1. #7761
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    FraudJ's word is worth less than the prop cash in Singer's safe...RIP

  2. #7762
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Alan has forwarded me a post by axel on a forum that may be from here or more probably from some other forum that I don't read because I've not seen it. Axel asks why anyone with a successful gambling system would need a retirement plan in the first place?
    Axel's comment was made in jest. Anyone reading the comment in context knew that, except the person mentioned. I was obvious that it went right over his head.

    Look, THAT discussion isn't even about APing although AP's playing for a living fall into the category. That is a discussion about how some people need the security of a weekly paycheck, benefits, including retirement. They put in their 40 years and retire. That is the ONLY thing they could possible be comfortable with. They could NEVER in a million years start a business, or work for themselves and that includes APing for a living. They NEED that security.

    But the argument is ridiculous. Health insurance, retirement IS PART of the cost of self employment or and that includes APing. Alan (and I am sorry to mention his name, but the discussion was brought here) and others like him argue that someone self employed, including AP's ONLY earns enough to squeek by and then come retirement time, is like "Oh no I am up shits creek". That is not the way it works. Retirement and health insurance are part of the plan and cost of self employment.

    Personally, since I don't have a mortgage, or pay rent and my vehicles are paid for, Health insurance is currently my top expense. That is part of the deal.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 09-30-2021 at 10:30 AM.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  3. #7763
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    You're stepping outside of your comfort zone. Otherwise, you wouldn't have missed where I was talking about "people who do things differently than you".

    And yes, you do come off as EXTREMELY jealous of other more successful people, whether they got there via real jobs, gambling, or however. If you weren't, you'd never, ever be roaming around various internet gambling forums wasting all your time like a nosey old lady worrying about everyone else's business.

    Wise up.
    Listen to THIS GUY, a failed AP, who made up stories for 2 decades, changing, altering and growing them along the way, talking about anyone else being EXTREMELY JEALOUS. Precious!

    Rob you really should never tell anyone to "wise up" because honestly you are about the dumbest fuck ever if you think you have or are fooling anyone. So how about YOU wise the fuck up.
    Ha!.....a direct hit right between the eyes.....

  4. #7764
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Alan has forwarded me a post by axel on a forum that may be from here or more probably from some other forum that I don't read because I've not seen it. Axel asks why anyone with a successful gambling system would need a retirement plan in the first place?
    Axel's comment was made in jest. Anyone reading the comment in context knew that, except the person mentioned. I was obvious that it went right over his head.

    Look, THAT discussion isn't even about APing although AP's playing for a living fall into the category. That is a discussion about how some people need the security of a weekly paycheck, benefits, including retirement. They put in their 40 years and retire. That is the ONLY thing they could possible be comfortable with. They could NEVER in a million years start a business, or work for themselves and that includes APing for a living. They NEED that security.
    Leave it to internet gambling forums' self-annointed nosey little old lady sheriff to put a spin on the inexplicable.

    Tell us kew--exactly how nervous and ruffled do certain sets of words REALLY make you??

  5. #7765
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    It's the opportunity that's the risk. Most small businesses offer products or services that will be required into the foreseeable future. Professional AP's offer nothing and indeed depend upon their wells never going dry. But is that true...that there'll always be something lucrative enuf to go after? We've seen a drastic reduction in benefits and opportunities in the last decade. What of the future?

  6. #7766
    You are just embarrassing yourself Rob! Oh sure the fucktards who have no life other than cheering all the trolling like 3rd graders appreciate you. Gives them something to jerk off to. But for any reasonable people, you are just the village idiot.....you really are. And a 70+ year old man acting that way, for decades. And proud of it. (where is the shaking head emoji?)
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  7. #7767
    By the way, the guy in question in that discussion asks: "What security does an AP have if they get sick? Or have an accident?

    Who pays the premiums for the self insurance you set up?"


    Hello??? Is there any better example than myself? Health insurance is part of the cost of self employment and being in business for yourself, AP or otherwise. PERIOD!
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  8. #7768
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    It's the opportunity that's the risk. Most small businesses offer products or services that will be required into the foreseeable future. Professional AP's offer nothing and indeed depend upon their wells never going dry. But is that true...that there'll always be something lucrative enuf to go after? We've seen a drastic reduction in benefits and opportunities in the last decade. What of the future?

    Well, sports gambling has, if anything, exploded in popularity and has, this anomalous season possibly aside (because we'll never see a year when 75% of college football teams return 16 starters or more) become easier, in my view.

    There's no question that expanding the sports betting population makes life easier for both making money from handicapping and making money from betting. Sports betting specialists project to have more and better opportunities in all facets of the game. Books are relying more and more on simple algorithms to make lines, and their profits are much more reliant on sucking gamblers into making numerous sub-bets (quarters, halves, props, live betting).

    I wish I were 21 in 2021. The next decade should be fun.
    Last edited by redietz; 09-30-2021 at 11:01 AM.

  9. #7769
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    It's the opportunity that's the risk. Most small businesses offer products or services that will be required into the foreseeable future. Professional AP's offer nothing and indeed depend upon their wells never going dry. But is that true...that there'll always be something lucrative enuf to go after? We've seen a drastic reduction in benefits and opportunities in the last decade. What of the future?
    If there is nothing in the future then the AP can move on from selling buggy whips to selling squeegees. Nothing is guaranteed.
    FraudJ's word is worth less than the prop cash in Singer's safe...RIP

  10. #7770
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Alan has forwarded me a post by axel on a forum that may be from here or more probably from some other forum that I don't read because I've not seen it. Axel asks why anyone with a successful gambling system would need a retirement plan in the first place?

    Herein lies the typical type of disconnect among different factions. First, is he referring to AP's, who mostly claim some type of lower 6-figure success of some sort. Or is he referring to someone like myself, who had/has success gaming within a "system" (outside of when I "cheated")?

    Well I'll say it loud and clear: I don't exactly know how people make liveable money playing on "teams" but if it's anything like Frank Kneeland explained then there's a lot of government support included. Regardless, $100-$200k/year can never be counted on to continue, and unless you're mickecrimm living in a place where a good life can be had for far less, that amount these days hardly cuts it for city dwellers. And I don't believe for one minute that people who live on gambling's edge put one cent into retirement plans. They all live for today, and if they don't have some other type of support system then their declining years will be very tough indeed.

    Finally, if axel was referring to me then he doesn't understand. I didn't start pro gambling until after my and my wife's retirements we're fully secured from our years of real work....or else it would have been very dumb and irresponsible to begin in the first place.

    Everybody has a different approach. It was never right for me to continue to pick on AP's but I had my reasons, whether you want to believe it or not. And NOBODY really knows anything about anyone else unless and until they walk 24/7 in their shoes.
    I wasn't talking about any sort of Advantage-Play or even machines for that matter. I was talking about guys who claim they have a betting system that can beat table games. There's a huge difference between an advantage player and someone who has a "winning" table games betting system. The first and most obvious difference is the fact that table game-winning betting systems are complete absolute fiction. But let's just pretend for one moment that someone did in fact find the Holy Grail(like these guys are basically claiming)

    With real Advantage play you are oftentimes limited to specific locations, limited denominations/ the amount you can bet, continually changing rules/
    Paytables/payouts/ game removals/ heat from the casinos/ competition and all kinds of other stumbling blocks that come up. One might have to continually travel or be walking around all day. You have to be continually looking in scouting for new plays to replace the one he lost or to add extra to your income, there are stretches where it can be feast or famine. Sure, there's smaller stuff that you can fill in the gaps with. It's all going to be different depending on what kind of Advantage player you are and what you have going.

    Now if we compare that to someone who claims to have a winning table games betting system, it's like night and day. For the most part, you are not going to be limited to specific locations, you have Global access to casinos with table games of your choice, and that's not even considering online casinos. And all they have to do is plop their asses down and bet.

    You're not really limited to the amount you can bet, I mean sure, there are limits, but the limits are so high, it's a moot point.

    One might say... well, they don't have a big enough starting bankroll to jump ship from their job. It certainly wouldn't take but a week or two off work in order to build a big enough bankroll to handle that.

    For obvious reasons, these guys can't come up with a percentage(cuz it's not true, therefore you can't come up with the percentage because there's no math that can show a positive number on a -EV game) they usually quantify "winning" system in units or number of hands before XYZ will happen. But let's just imagine they have a small 5% advantage on a coin flip game. There are formulas and tools available, such as Kelly that can show one how to bet and scale up. A 5% advantage on a scalable coin flip absolutely monstrous and you would make millions in no time at all.
    (Side note EvenBob claims to have a 30% to 50% advantage on Baccarat and roulette, I really hope everybody understands how incredibly retarded that claim is)

    So let me ask you this... If you could make millions of dollars in a matter of months for little effort why the fuck wouldn't you quit your $30 an hour job to do so? I can tell you why, because it's all complete total bullshit, and even they know it deep down inside. I suspect most of them are just making everything up and trolling.

  11. #7771
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    If there is nothing in the future then the AP can move on from selling buggy whips to selling squeegees. Nothing is guaranteed.
    That is right and there also is no guarantee with any other kind of self employment and small business. What are the stats of failure?

    But I happen to believe there is some guarantee with advantage play. I didn't always feel this way. I used to worry about say what I do....blackjack card counting drying up. But why hasn't it? If the casino industry wanted to they could have put things in place, (CSM everywhere, 6:5 everywhere) that would have essentially ended blackjack card counting. But the truth is they want and need blackjack card counting to be out there. The "possibility" of players beating the games is good for business, despite that the casino industry will never say that.

    Two times that blackjack revenue soared in casinos were the years after Thorp's book Beat The Dealer came out back in the 60's and the years just after the books and movie "21" came out in the mid 2000's. Players thinking they can beat the casinos is good for the casinos. Rather than eliminate that, they just try to deal with and limit those that actually can and then you have to get into learning to play the game within the game. Other non blackjack AP is a little behind card counting in that evolution, but I think it will shake out the same way. It's good for business. The industry won't eliminate it, just try to control it.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  12. #7772
    A couple things about Axel's post if I may. Of course everything is true. That almost goes without saying.

    I found myself thinking about the EvenBob comment. I am aware of EvenBob's claims but yet have never commented on them. Never felt the need. Everyone knows they are nonsense. And I am not alone, there are fewer people that object to EvenBob's claims as say someone like Mdawg. So why do I care about Mdawgs claims or Singers claims and not EvenBob's?

    I think it is the repetition. Evenbob only occasionally says his nonsense usually when someone else has brought the topic up. But these other guys it is freaking ongoing, multiple times a day, long running threads that last for years AND sockpuppets (hello Marcus) to support their position. That is why these guys have to be called out and allowed to be called out by legitimate players and members. I can't get why Wizard doesn't see that?
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  13. #7773
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    It's the opportunity that's the risk. Most small businesses offer products or services that will be required into the foreseeable future. Professional AP's offer nothing and indeed depend upon their wells never going dry. But is that true...that there'll always be something lucrative enuf to go after? We've seen a drastic reduction in benefits and opportunities in the last decade. What of the future?
    That's certainly a risk, especially if you only specialize in one aspect of AP and don't think outside the box. To be honest, Advantage play has only been getting better. Unfortunately, that also means there are more and more guys hitting it hard, and they're getting smarter and smarter, which has everything to do with technology and free-flowing information. It's like nobody has to figure out anything on their own from scratch. So basically they just have to adjust and improve all the information that's pieced together. There's definitely going to be a Breaking Point in various areas Advantage play it's just going to take a couple of simple things to come along and then catch on that will eliminate that area.

  14. #7774
    In thinking about Alan's position on Risk and playing it safe collecting a paycheck for 40 years, but yet when it comes to marriage, he is all in, risk up the wazzu.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  15. #7775
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    There really is no difference between a professional AP and the person who owns and operates a sandwich shop or whatever. The only difference is an AP has way less overhead. So it can be argued the risk is the lowest out of almost all forms of self employment.
    And a lot more freedom, can come and go as you please most of the time. Can scale back hours worked and have your own schedule within reason. Obviously to maximize results ther are certain days and times that are considerably more profitable. Excluding certain amazing promos and/or chases that requires you become a temporary slave(sometimes on rare occasion 24+hours) in order to extract maximal EV. Or you can be like Kew and only be committed for short bursts of time come and go as you please, with limited results 70-80k year.

  16. #7776
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    You are just embarrassing yourself Rob! Oh sure the fucktards who have no life other than cheering all the trolling like 3rd graders appreciate you. Gives them something to jerk off to. But for any reasonable people, you are just the village idiot.....you really are. And a 70+ year old man acting that way, for decades. And proud of it. (where is the shaking head emoji?)
    More wine with your cheese.

  17. #7777
    Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    And a lot more freedom, can come and go as you please most of the time. Can scale back hours worked and have your own schedule within reason. Obviously to maximize results ther are certain days and times that are considerably more profitable. Excluding certain amazing promos and/or chases that requires you become a temporary slave(sometimes on rare occasion 24+hours) in order to extract maximal EV. Or you can be like Kew and only be committed for short bursts of time come and go as you please, with limited results 70-80k year.
    Wow, look at this! Ozzy actually contributing to a non-trolling topic, with a non-trolling post. Nice!

    It is funny, I see people manipulate my numbers to make whatever point they want to make. When they want to put me down for what I make it is 70-80k a year. Moses has gone as low as 60k a year. When they want to try to challenge they will say something like how can someone make 100+K a year from card counting for decades.

    The fact is, during my time in Vegas, playing the same or mostly the same stakes, as I have bumped up some in the last 2 years, but during my time in Vegas my average is 80k a year from card counting and just a hair over 100K total AP. What is so wrong with that Ozzy? That is a decent living. I don't work too hard or too much. I think I have a great life right now.

    The average salary in the U.S. is like half that if I am not mistaken, and I was never going to be a person making all that much. I didn't have the opportunity to go to college out of high school and just have never gotten back to it, in large part because I am happy where I am in life.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  18. #7778
    Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    You are just embarrassing yourself Rob! Oh sure the fucktards who have no life other than cheering all the trolling like 3rd graders appreciate you. Gives them something to jerk off to. But for any reasonable people, you are just the village idiot.....you really are. And a 70+ year old man acting that way, for decades. And proud of it. (where is the shaking head emoji?)
    More wine with your cheese.
    See this is more like it Ozzy.

    No cheese here.....I am circumcised.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  19. #7779
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
    And a lot more freedom, can come and go as you please most of the time. Can scale back hours worked and have your own schedule within reason. Obviously to maximize results ther are certain days and times that are considerably more profitable. Excluding certain amazing promos and/or chases that requires you become a temporary slave(sometimes on rare occasion 24+hours) in order to extract maximal EV. Or you can be like Kew and only be committed for short bursts of time come and go as you please, with limited results 70-80k year.
    Wow, look at this! Ozzy actually contributing to a non-trolling topic, with a non-trolling post. Nice!

    It is funny, I see people manipulate my numbers to make whatever point they want to make. When they want to put me down for what I make it is 70-80k a year. Moses has gone as low as 60k a year. When they want to try to challenge they will say something like how can someone make 100+K a year from card counting for decades.

    The fact is, during my time in Vegas, playing the same or mostly the same stakes, as I have bumped up some in the last 2 years, but during my time in Vegas my average is 80k a year from card counting and just a hair over 100K total AP. What is so wrong with that Ozzy? That is a decent living. I don't work too hard or too much. I think I have a great life right now.
    After thinking about it for a few seconds, we actually have something in common we are both 50/50 forum posters. I have about 50% percent of my posts trying to liven the place up and not take life to seriously(comedy is paramount) and the other half on a more serious note. You are a VCT/ WOV 50/50 poster, everything else is a 180, literally speaking.

  20. #7780
    Rob, you mention Frankie N. I can't find the post. I like Frankie. Granted, he's a little strange and quirky, I didn't agree with some of his antics, but he's very intelligent and talented, he was a good Advantage player and he knew his stuff. But, let's be clear, Frankie worked for someone (the innovator, brains, and money behind the team). I really don't think his comments regarding the financial aspects of Advantage play should be taken into account as far as this discussion goes.
    I don't know how much Advantage play, if any, he's currently playing but things are significantly different compared to back then.

    Heck, I think it was either you or Allan who claimed he never used his own money.

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