The WoV Thread

[monet]

I ordered some ammo from Bone Frog Gun Club the other day when we were talking about it.
Talk about lighting fast.
I ordered at 5 in the morning on the 19th and my whole order was delivered to my door in 36 hours.
Impressive.
I also ordered some from a few other websites and they are shipping it out but nowhere near as lighting fast as this gun club.
Not to mention they give free membership for life to Veterans which gives you a discounted rate.
I'm not trying to advertise for them but geesh I am impressed with this first order.

Ohhhh no wonder...
I just looked up their contact information and they are located in Las Vegas... duh lol.

[Mission146]

Greetings!

This message is mainly for Boz because he participated in the PA Skill Games thread on WoV, but of course, the more the merrier if anyone wants to read this article:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/pace-o-auto-matic/

The two main ways to advantage play these (if you're familiar with the machines) are pretty obvious, but I also get into a technical breakdown of how they work from a manufacturer, game designer and operator standpoint. If you had an, 'In,' with the operators, so to speak, there would be one other potential way to play these at an advantage, so I also address that.

If you're not banned from WoV, then I'd appreciate any questions going to the Comment section of the article. If you are, feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

[The Boz]

Greetings!

This message is mainly for Boz because he participated in the PA Skill Games thread on WoV, but of course, the more the merrier if anyone wants to read this article:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/pace-o-auto-matic/

The two main ways to advantage play these (if you're familiar with the machines) are pretty obvious, but I also get into a technical breakdown of how they work from a manufacturer, game designer and operator standpoint. If you had an, 'In,' with the operators, so to speak, there would be one other potential way to play these at an advantage, so I also address that.

If you're not banned from WoV, then I'd appreciate any questions going to the Comment section of the article. If you are, feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

Nice detailed write up on these machines. They are certainly back to everywhere in my part if the state after being shutdown during the early days of CV. While Pace has certainly tried to make it appear they are running a “fair” business, I still question the payback. And many others are placing machines that are not Pace and again, we don’t know the payback. To their credit Pace has complained about these other machines, but it doesn’t make them Boy Scouts by any measure.

Just this week there was a major bust of a “casino” in Berks that had 57 machines and advertised itself as a casino. They opened last winter and we discussed many times that they had balls and had to get busted sooner or later. It appears the Vid delayed the investigation but it happened this week. Note this about 15 miles from the new Hollywood mini casino being built just off the turnpike. And they were blatantly advertising themselves as a casino.

https://www.readingeagle.com/news/cr...d30ebf1d0.html

https://www.playpennsylvania.com/ill...rks-county-pa/


What I see in my area in concentration of machines in what I would call ethnic stores in the city. The Spanish places, which include markets, bodegas and even independent C-Stores have up to 10 machines and I would guess these are paying the bills for these locations. It will be interesting to see if the DA Adans starts going after more of these.

In the ‘burbs where I live you only see a machine or 2 in a few restaurants and I would believe the action is much lower now as you can’t sit at a bar in PA currently. Bars without food are still closed and these were the places that had more machines.

My opinion hasn’t changed now that I am out of the business. I still believe PA should legalize VP machines for liquor license holders and tax & regulate it. But it still appears the casino lobby is against it, so this is what you end up with.

On a semi related subject, Rutters (a C-Store chain from York) is now building larger locations that qualify as truck stops. Therefore they are adding licensed slots in a separate room under a provision of the law passed a year or so back. I haven’t been in one of these yet but what do you know about them? Who is manufacturing the machines in them? Are they regular machines like you find in any casino?

Again, thanks for all the details you put in the article. I would say it’s probably the most detailed story on PA Skills games ever done. Not sure of how your contract is or the rights to the story, but I wonder if you could freelance it to some of the papers in PA? No clue of their potential interest, but I believe the story is that good.

Boz

[LMR]

If you're not banned from WoV, then I'd appreciate any questions going to the Comment section of the article. If you are, feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

Whoa. It's a bit disingenuous to try to intentionally steer traffic from this site. One thing to put up a link here to something on the Wizard's, but, another to go on to ask posters here to respond to it there, lol, if they can.

I don't care, specifically, as these types and degrees of posts are a proved dead end, but, it's ironic to ask the persons Mike hasn't yet rudely "shown the door" if they would be so kind as to help out you (and old Mike) now. Ha, doubly ironic that posters here put up links from there, when this thread is about dissing the place.

[Mission146]

Thanks Boz!

Nice detailed write up on these machines. They are certainly back to everywhere in my part if the state after being shutdown during the early days of CV. While Pace has certainly tried to make it appear they are running a “fair” business, I still question the payback. And many others are placing machines that are not Pace and again, we don’t know the payback. To their credit Pace has complained about these other machines, but it doesn’t make them Boy Scouts by any measure.

I agree with all of this and would reiterate that I only used an example from the patent information I found. The overall percentage returns cited were as low as 85% and depended almost exclusively on bet amount. Different games could definitely have different paybacks, different bet amounts and some locations could be different from others. Kind of like any other slot machine game, in that regard.

The good news for AP's is there is no reason to ever play unless you know you will win. To that extent, the overall return of the game wouldn't matter much...aside from perhaps changing the number of opportunities you'll get.

Just this week there was a major bust of a “casino” in Berks that had 57 machines and advertised itself as a casino. They opened last winter and we discussed many times that they had balls and had to get busted sooner or later. It appears the Vid delayed the investigation but it happened this week. Note this about 15 miles from the new Hollywood mini casino being built just off the turnpike. And they were blatantly advertising themselves as a casino.

https://www.readingeagle.com/news/cr...d30ebf1d0.html

https://www.playpennsylvania.com/ill...rks-county-pa/

Thanks for the links; I just read them.

That's bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. "Anonymous report," my ass. There either was no report, or it's just some busybody who doesn't know how to mind his/her own fucking business.

Although, if you're the casinos, it's pretty nice to have the Government taking out the competition for you. Mafia-owned casinos weren't too big on competition, either, as I recall.

And, let's face it: If your huge casino can't compete for customers with some no-frills shithole slot parlor in the middle of a strip mall, maybe your casino has some work to do?

Here's a quote from the second article:

“These machines are completely unregulated,” he said.”There are no consumer safeguards. There is no way for a compulsive gambler to exclude themselves from playing these machines. We get complaints about minors playing these machines.

“We get complaints about individuals who have excluded themselves from casinos playing these machines. We don’t know what the payout percentages are, if they’re fair to the commonwealth, because there are no safeguards. So it’s our duty to protect the consumers."

I'm calling bullshit on almost every word of that. They're telling me that if a person asked for the location to take down their name and take a picture of them so that they not be allowed in anymore, that the location would refuse? Come on! Law enforcement is just pissed that the state/locality isn't getting a cut, even though they are, in the various other taxes such locations would pay.

What I see in my area in concentration of machines in what I would call ethnic stores in the city. The Spanish places, which include markets, bodegas and even independent C-Stores have up to 10 machines and I would guess these are paying the bills for these locations. It will be interesting to see if the DA Adans starts going after more of these.

I've only seen them at three places, aside from the Cherry Masters. The Pace-O-Matics in one and then some other machine in two others that I might write a similar article about if I can find one closer. It's definitely a non-zero revenue source, and any revenue source is a good one, I would think, in the COVID environment.

My opinion hasn’t changed now that I am out of the business. I still believe PA should legalize VP machines for liquor license holders and tax & regulate it. But it still appears the casino lobby is against it, so this is what you end up with.

I agree. States such as West Virginia and Illinois have done so, and this is basically what Montana casinos are. Although, the Montana ones can have many more machines than can the West Virginia ones, as I recall. States such as Ohio and Pennsylvania seem pretty dead set against such a system, for the most part. Ironically, it would almost certainly mean MORE revenues for the State and the availability of, "Convenience gambling," virtually everywhere would put a natural end to the, 'Games of skill," market. There would no longer be any demand for those machines.

More than that, you could actually justify (I guess) cracking down on, "Games of Skill." You would just tell the locations to get/use their liquor license and get legal VLT's.

On a semi related subject, Rutters (a C-Store chain from York) is now building larger locations that qualify as truck stops. Therefore they are adding licensed slots in a separate room under a provision of the law passed a year or so back. I haven’t been in one of these yet but what do you know about them? Who is manufacturing the machines in them? Are they regular machines like you find in any casino?

You already know more about it than I do. Thanks for the tip! I'll dig into it a bit and try to figure out more about it. I've never even heard of Rutters.

Again, thanks for all the details you put in the article. I would say it’s probably the most detailed story on PA Skills games ever done. Not sure of how your contract is or the rights to the story, but I wonder if you could freelance it to some of the papers in PA? No clue of their potential interest, but I believe the story is that good.

Thanks for the compliment and you're welcome! That article belongs to WoV/family of sites now, but I'm almost positive I'll get paid as much/more for it than even the papers would pay if they were interested.***

***I looked up a newspaper nearby just to check on it:

1. I'll get paid for this meaningfully more than I would be making from the newspaper.

2. This article is much longer than the newspaper would want...which kind of offsets #1.

You'd also have to worry about the newspapers actually wanting to publish what you've written, but in general, only staff writers do well.

I'm not going to get into any specifics of what I get paid to write for the sites, but I will say it's not meaningfully different than what the average full-time writer would make (if I do as much as I'm allowed to do). Here are a few other tidbits:

1. Freelance writers have to worry about someone actually accepting/wanting their work on a certain subject, or, waiting around to be told to write something. I sometimes get asked to write about certain subjects or to write listings stuff for some of our other sites, but those requests aside, I can write whatever the hell I want to and it will always be accepted. 100% of the time. Guaranteed.

So, other freelancers would have to maybe shop themselves or their articles around a bit, whereas I just write it and E-Mail the file off for publishing.

Of course, they've given me this sort of latitude because they consider me generally knowledgable when it comes to almost all aspects of gambling. Also, this came after writing stuff that they were very happy with writing only on the subjects and when I was told to write. In short, right or wrong, ownership considers me a good writer.

2. From what I can tell, freelancers make more on a word-count-adjusted basis than I do, but again...they need someone to buy their stuff. I don't have to worry about that. Anything I write will be accepted. I imagine I'd have to get the quality up if it was ever considered not good enough, but I've yet to be told anything in this regard. So, I get paid for everything I write whereas freelancers do not if nobody wants it.

[Mission146]

If you're not banned from WoV, then I'd appreciate any questions going to the Comment section of the article. If you are, feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

Whoa. It's a bit disingenuous to try to intentionally steer traffic from this site. One thing to put up a link here to something on the Wizard's, but, another to go on to ask posters here to respond to it there, lol, if they can.

I don't care, specifically, as these types and degrees of posts are a proved dead end, but, it's ironic to ask the persons Mike hasn't yet rudely "shown the door" if they would be so kind as to help out you (and old Mike) now. Ha, doubly ironic that posters here put up links from there, when this thread is about dissing the place.

If Dan Druff has a problem with my post, then he can remove or edit it and reprimand me accordingly. Per the usual, you can fuck yourself. Have a wonderful day!

Also, most of the people participating in this thread are already reading over there, otherwise, why would there be a thread about it? Their comments don't help me, personally, in any way whatsoever. I'm just more likely to see/respond to comments over there faster than I am to respond here. I probably only check this forum once a week, or so. Also, I get an Email anytime ANY WoV article is commented on and anytime one of my LCB articles is commented on.

Finally, had Boz not participated in that thread, then I wouldn't have even mentioned it here. It's not like I pimp every single article I write over here.

[Mission146]

Generally speaking, I'd also imagine most people who write for newspapers write better than I do, overall. Of course, very few of them would know anything about gambling. I think that's why many gambling-related articles in newspapers contain at least one statement that is laughably wrong.

[LMR]

If you're not banned from WoV, then I'd appreciate any questions going to the Comment section of the article. If you are, feel free to ask any questions you may have here.

Whoa. It's a bit disingenuous to try to intentionally steer traffic from this site. One thing to put up a link here to something on the Wizard's, but, another to go on to ask posters here to respond to it there, lol, if they can.

I don't care, specifically, as these types and degrees of posts are a proved dead end, but, it's ironic to ask the persons Mike hasn't yet rudely "shown the door" if they would be so kind as to help out you (and old Mike) now. Ha, doubly ironic that posters here put up links from there, when this thread is about dissing the place.

If Dan Druff has a problem with my post, then he can remove or edit it and reprimand me accordingly. Per the usual, you can fuck yourself. Have a wonderful day!

Also, most of the people participating in this thread are already reading over there, otherwise, why would there be a thread about it? Their comments don't help me, personally, in any way whatsoever. I'm just more likely to see/respond to comments over there faster than I am to respond here. I probably only check this forum once a week, or so. Also, I get an Email anytime ANY WoV article is commented on and anytime one of my LCB articles is commented on.

Finally, had Boz not participated in that thread, then I wouldn't have even mentioned it here. It's not like I pimp every single article I write over here.

You're quite a fuck-up.

Anyway, I thought that it was, suck your dick, uh, the Wizard's dick.

Was the Wizard, today, too busy sucking his own?

[mickeycrimm]

Whoa. It's a bit disingenuous to try to intentionally steer traffic from this site. One thing to put up a link here to something on the Wizard's, but, another to go on to ask posters here to respond to it there, lol, if they can.

I don't care, specifically, as these types and degrees of posts are a proved dead end, but, it's ironic to ask the persons Mike hasn't yet rudely "shown the door" if they would be so kind as to help out you (and old Mike) now. Ha, doubly ironic that posters here put up links from there, when this thread is about dissing the place.

If Dan Druff has a problem with my post, then he can remove or edit it and reprimand me accordingly. Per the usual, you can fuck yourself. Have a wonderful day!

Also, most of the people participating in this thread are already reading over there, otherwise, why would there be a thread about it? Their comments don't help me, personally, in any way whatsoever. I'm just more likely to see/respond to comments over there faster than I am to respond here. I probably only check this forum once a week, or so. Also, I get an Email anytime ANY WoV article is commented on and anytime one of my LCB articles is commented on.

Finally, had Boz not participated in that thread, then I wouldn't have even mentioned it here. It's not like I pimp every single article I write over here.

You're quite a fuck-up.

Anyway, I thought that it was, suck your dick, uh, the Wizard's dick.

Was the Wizard, today, too busy sucking his own?

Onwhitwonder, you seen where Dan Druff said he was going to clean things up. He was talking about you. You frivolously and routinely jump in with bullshit trolling during serious discussions. That is why you are on the chopping block again. You've had your chances under several different aliases. You keep fucking it up. You are on short time again, dude.

[mcap]

Mick you literally called yourself king troll and said you troll twice as hard as other people.

[The Boz]

Mission, not going to quote your entire post for size but here are a few replies.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Cliff Notes version of your story for papers, but I agree it’s unlikely they will pay much. One thing I thought of is possibly getting your name out there to the media as a go to source when stories like the Berks bust come up. Again not sure if there is any money in it, or how it would conflict, or if you even want the hassle of your name out there. But I was thinking about the same people always getting called by the media, when situations occur. Either way, I probably have no clue how that actually works.

On the Rutters thing, I had heard about it but never really looked into it. A simple search showed a couple details. It appears the games are from/ with Penn National Hollywood. Obviously a fair game with more hands in the pot so I’m sure they are set at or close to state minimum and with bad VP tables.

https://www.pennlive.com/life/2019/0...pa-stores.html

https://www.playpennsylvania.com/rut...k-stop-launch/

As for the location in Berks that was busted, obviously someone bitched. But they did themselves no favors putting the word casino in their name and having a huge Facebook presence. I had multiple people ask me if it was legal when they opened because they know I know a few things about casinos and business in general. I attached a picture of the sign they had on the building. They were in a strip plaza with a grocery store, a US Post Office, a state run liquor store and right next to a Cash Converters Pawn Shop.

Some of the other things I see in the city are places with signs out offering free coffee and soda on big signs outside their small grocery stores or bodegas. It seems enforcement is very spotty at best so why bring more attention to yourself?

[The Boz]

Mick you literally called yourself king troll and said you troll twice as hard as other people.

I for one can understand everything Mick is talking about when he posts. And has added a lot of great gambling information to the site and the net over the years.

As for the other guy, most of the time I have no fucking clue what he is rambling on about. Numbers and other shit comes off as the random thoughts of a lunatic.

[tableplay]

Bill, have you thought up what name you are going to use for your next sock since LMR may be going the way of the dodo soon ?

[The Boz]

Meanwhile over at WoV, KJ is just making a fool of Alan. I have to give KJ credit when it’s due and it’s like he is just playing with him.

All Alan has is to say he is being insulted. He has no defense for his own words being used against him.

[monet]

Mick you literally called yourself king troll and said you troll twice as hard as other people.

Unlike yourself?
Of course you never called yourself King Troll or admitted to trolling people twice as hard.
The truth is that is all you do.
I've never seen you post anything of use or entertainment.
All you got is troll.

Unlike myself, who is the complete opposite.
All of my posts have been nothing but accurate information and the truth.
I never care about who I offend as I say what I am and that's all that I am. (Popeye the sailor man... toot toot)
Tableplay caught onto that real quick and posted that he couldn't understand why anyone would give me shit.
Mickey noticed as well, posting that my posts are unlike any he has seen on the gambling forums because all of my information is accurate and detailed.
The truth is that MC has posted up far more useful and accurate information than I ever have.
I just find it hard to use as I don't want to walk around constantly looking for the correct numbers on the new style of Vision Machines.
When I post that I juice fasted for 30 days, that is exactly what I did.
When I am currently posting about losing weight and changing my eating habits that is exactly what I am doing.
I just weighed myself and I have actually gained 2 pounds at 256 currently.
I am the one poster who has never had any qualms about posting up Mailer Information.
I post up exactly where the Full Pay Machines are located that have been a mistake for years.
I did get one response from a member who actually found them and thanked me.
Others, like Alan's son, gave me nothing but grief, telling me that I am posting up losing information about 2 dollar 9/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe.
Which he was and is completely wrong about that game.
I just woke up as I have to actually go out and bang a progressive that I have been working on.
Yesterday I took the day off in the early morning and went out to the desert to sight in my M1A.
It appears the scope is all jacked up on this rifle.
It comes loose at the ends every few shots.
I have no clue of how to stop it from doing that.
It's my own fault as I bought this thing 3 1/2 years ago and it has basically just sat doing nothing.
I paid 4k cash which was probably too much but it is supposed to be the higher end spectrum of the series.
Even with the shitty scope I still got this thing accurate where I had to aim a hair to the lower right as my shots were pulling a bit left.
I didn't have great ammo in it and I am realizing all the talk about ammo making a difference is real.
My over/under adjustment knob came loose and just spins now as I didn't have the key to tighten it up.
However, I suspect this Leopold Scope is garbage.
I'm probably going to buy the highly reviewed Chink Scope which is the Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50mm at about 700 dollars.
You can see my Slant Eyed Wife in the picture below.
I'll make a gook sniper out of her yet even though I have no clue what I am doing because I have no knowledge in this arena.
I have good eye hand coordination and I got this thing very accurate yesterday.
As long as we can slurp noodles together, all is well.
Now I have to buy some sort of range finder so I know exactly how far away I am.
And, looking into a Swinging Gong Steel Target set up as the guy far away from me was shooting long distance and making his ring beautifully.
Lastly, I have to hand it to Boz who used to constantly feed me shit like you do.
He finally realized that I am the Real Fucking Deal and I accepted his apology and we have moved forward.
Others, hate and ignore me because they can't handle how I share honest and useful information that players can actually use.
When LMR posts up something about my post here, I will be ignoring it.

[LMR]

If Dan Druff has a problem with my post, then he can remove or edit it and reprimand me accordingly. Per the usual, you can fuck yourself. Have a wonderful day!

Also, most of the people participating in this thread are already reading over there, otherwise, why would there be a thread about it? Their comments don't help me, personally, in any way whatsoever. I'm just more likely to see/respond to comments over there faster than I am to respond here. I probably only check this forum once a week, or so. Also, I get an Email anytime ANY WoV article is commented on and anytime one of my LCB articles is commented on.

Finally, had Boz not participated in that thread, then I wouldn't have even mentioned it here. It's not like I pimp every single article I write over here.

You're quite a fuck-up.

Anyway, I thought that it was, suck your dick, uh, the Wizard's dick.

Was the Wizard, today, too busy sucking his own?

Onwhitwonder, you seen where Dan Druff said he was going to clean things up. He was talking about you. You frivolously and routinely jump in with bullshit trolling during serious discussions. That is why you are on the chopping block again. You've had your chances under several different aliases. You keep fucking it up. You are on short time again, dude.

"Serious discussions" includes the WoV thread? Look, regardless, it can't help the forum, when a poster asks for responses to be made to a different forum.

Maybe, it's you who are still trolling the forum, with posts that keep jumping aimlessly into threads to call others trolls, just because they don't subscribe to, I think, your very own nutty values, etc. I think that I've stayed, pretty much, on topic. Here, Mission told me to suck his dick, so, I told him to keep sucking the Wizard's.

As far as Dan goes, I didn't try to tell him what to do with the forum. I never complained to any owners/admins about any member. Regardless, I am quite busy, day to day, in my normal life. You might be surprised. None of this stuff is what I really and actually do. Could, never, miss any of it. I have used the gambling forums as a form of "fun" motivation to try out different things, concepts that I wouldn't have, ever, written about elsewhere. I didn't specifically try to therein please anyone, but myself. Makes no difference to me who understands, hates, etc, anything I wrote. And, I never lost sight of the fact that internet forums, especially gambling forums, are just like anything else, in that they can and may end, at any time.

There are all kinds of gambling experiences, and bodies of knowledge. Maybe, the best ones involve knowing and understanding the reasons not to gamble, in the first place. I think that I have made quite a study of such. I've read scholarly articles, some barely discernible on the first go round, on various scientific levels of gambling research. I've sued, in civil court, a major casino, won, and, then, tried to pursue criminal charges. Experiences right down to quite a few of the more mundane found in any casino. I haven't been in a casino, in about twenty years. Wasn't a "fixture" in any. Ha, I think that I was a quick study. The whole thing has been a nice adventure, including the forum stuff, with the misinformation, etc, to be checked out.

Most importantly, is outgrowing whichever activities, etc, we find ourselves involved in, and, then, moving on to other things. Hopefully, better things. Let alone becoming bogged down in anything. That those around you don't want to, or can't change, is no reason to perpetuate the same nonsense. Have these forums changed at all, over the years? Of course, not. Same old waste of time, in the usual senses. They all started with the same "high" hopes, but, fairly soon trailed off to a bunch of dictatorial rules, whether written, and, finally, to a few stragglers talking about the same old stuff. Ha. It's like the relatively very few members of the Wizard's, and this, forum, are bouncing back and forth, between the various also the other very few gambling forums that remain. Some forums are veritable blockbusters, but, not these.

[jpfromla]

TPFKAA Has left the building....again.

[LMR]

Bill, have you thought up what name you are going to use for your next sock since LMR may be going the way of the dodo soon ?

There won't be a next. I don't think I could find anything else to thusly write about, anyway.

Again, we all go the way of the dodo bird. The idea is to accept it, from the start, to be able to incorporate it into one's life, and thinking.

[LMR]

Lastly, I have to hand it to Boz who used to constantly feed me shit like you do.
He finally realized that I am the Real Fucking Deal and I accepted his apology and we have moved forward.
Others, hate and ignore me because they can't handle how I share honest and useful information that players can actually use.

When LMR posts up something about my post here, I will be ignoring it.

Doesn't mean I'm not going to reply. Lol.

I'm "happy" for you and Bozo, and Ozzy. You must all be the "real deal". The real deal nut jobs. Psychological screw-ups.

No? Then, tell me this, "Who really cares?" I bet, not even either of you.



LMR LMR is online now
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[MaxPen]

Meanwhile over at WoV, KJ is just making a fool of Alan. I have to give KJ credit when it’s due and it’s like he is just playing with him.

All Alan has is to say he is being insulted. He has no defense for his own words being used against him.

Had to go read it after seeing your post. Looks like Mendelbread is cucking out and quitting again....LMAO

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gami...79/#post778737