The WoV Thread

[kewlJ]

I have always respected Norm W for not going that route.

Flash enough manna in front of him and I guarantee he'll change his tune.

The last thing in the world I want to do is speak for Norm Wattenberger. But Norm has said he is not interested in that money and from his actions, or lack of, how can anyone question him. With the money this company paid for WoV (and WOO), which I have never understood, and paid for BJ21 and Blackjackinfo, two blackjack sites with less traffic than Norm's forum, does anyone really beleive he didn't receive offers?

[Mission146]

No one is saying you don't have to "teach" anyone anything. But intentional mis-information, harmful information should not be allowed on a forum that is supposed to be about math. Players going to a legitimate forum seeking information and answers, shouldn't be lied to.

Should legitimate forums be pedaling offshore internet gaming sites?

IMO opinion...NO. I can appreciate forum owners and administrators right to make money from their forums, but I have never liked that association, and even more so dislike that a company related to and owning those gambling sites, now owns several of the legitimate forums, WoV, BJ21.com and Blackjackinfo.

I have always respected Norm W for not going that route.

What difference does it make? The current crop of sites being advertised is no more or less legal than when Wizard was advertising Bovada/Bodog. The main difference is the site advertises multiple sites.

In terms of Admin staff and writing staff, we don't do anything to encourage people to gamble. We answer mathematical questions truthfully and to the best of our ability. My general gambling advice is, "Don't gamble on -EV games." They buried MDawg's thread (partially at your urging) because we don't want to give anyone the impression that systems or methods that defy the math have a long-term expectation of profit.

In short, we're doing as little to actually encourage people to gamble as a gambling site can do.

For my part, I don't claim it's legal in a state where it isn't...etc.

With all of that, if someone still wants to gamble, please use one of these sites and thank you.

[BoSox]

Today in the 'moderation in moderataion' thread at WoV, (t)eliot, made a post with the following first paragraph:

This site needs to call b.s. loudly and openly when it comes to betting systems and nonsense claims (any system not based on information is fraudulent and those who push non-information based systems are either scammers, liars or delusional).

I regret that I am not a member there to 'thank' or 'like' (whatever it is called) this post by Eliot. And I never thought I would thank or like an Eliot post. I have had some pretty negative things to say about him over the years.

But Eliot is exactly right. These BS posts and threads that defy math and reality should be called out, regardless of the person writing them crying to Wizard. If Wizard doesn't want to take on that responsibility, he should at least let the forum membership do so (sort of a self policing) without any fear of penalty.

+1 for Eliot!

You asshole the only reason TEliot made the post, to begin with, is because I got the ball rolling two post above his. You always have something to say only you always say it on the wrong board. Either because you are scared to death or you are most likely barred or suspended. You have something to say over
there try using Spiderman.

Is it necessary for you to be so nasty, and call names on a subject that we both agree on?

And I do thank you for mentioning me as being part of the push to have Mdawg's fantasy thread hidden from the main front page section. It is good to see you and so many other continuing that fight as Mdawg tries to manipulate his way back to the front page.

edit: Upon further reading I see that you have flip flopped your position BoSox.

On appearance, it appears that I flip-flopped on my position but I believe that jbjb set me straight possibly a year ago and it was easy to forget. Considering the best way to support someone that you really do not want to is by completely ignoring his threads. That works wonderfully and actually allows for co-existence pertaining to threads on other subjects. I will watch how the thread Moderation/Moderation is going, but over there on the other site I'd rather not see MDawgs adventure in the ten latest posts positions. That way by not seeing it up there it is far easier to forget that they exist in the first place.

[kewlJ]

What difference does it make? The current crop of sites being advertised is no more or less legal than when Wizard was advertising Bovada/Bodog. The main difference is the site advertises multiple sites.

In terms of Admin staff and writing staff, we don't do anything to encourage people to gamble. We answer mathematical questions truthfully and to the best of our ability. My general gambling advice is, "Don't gamble on -EV games." They buried MDawg's thread (partially at your urging) because we don't want to give anyone the impression that systems or methods that defy the math have a long-term expectation of profit.

In short, we're doing as little to actually encourage people to gamble as a gambling site can do.

For my part, I don't claim it's legal in a state where it isn't...etc.

With all of that, if someone still wants to gamble, please use one of these sites and thank you.

Excuse me but YOURS is not exactly an unbiased opinion. First, no one said anything about Legal or illegal. Of course it is legal.

Also no one is accusing you or anyone that choses to work for (even for free) that forum and company of encouraging people to gamble. So let's get THAT out of the way.

But forums started by, owned and operated by, respected advantage players such as Shackleford, Wong, Norm and that still bear these peoples name and likeness (even in charature form), should not have that kind of association, in my opinion. It tarnishes the person's name in my opinion. To me there is a line as advantage players. Are you with us....or are you with "them".

Again, I want to be clear, Norm never did that and I respect that.

[redietz]

You asshole the only reason TEliot made the post, to begin with, is because I got the ball rolling two post above his. You always have something to say only you always say it on the wrong board. Either because you are scared to death or you are most likely barred or suspended. You have something to say over
there try using Spiderman.

Is it necessary for you to be so nasty, and call names on a subject that we both agree on?

And I do thank you for mentioning me as being part of the push to have Mdawg's fantasy thread hidden from the main front page section. It is good to see you and so many other continuing that fight as Mdawg tries to manipulate his way back to the front page.

edit: Upon further reading I see that you have flip flopped your position BoSox.

On appearance, it appears that I flip-flopped on my position but I believe that jbjb set me straight possibly a year ago and it was easy to forget. Considering the best way to support someone that you really do not want to is by completely ignoring his threads. That works wonderfully and actually allows for co-existence pertaining to threads on other subjects. I will watch how the thread Moderation/Moderation is going, but over there on the other site I'd rather not see MDawgs adventure in the ten latest posts positions. That way by not seeing it up there it is far easier to forget that they exist in the first place.

I have read many bizarro posts on this forum over the years, but this is a contender for top spot. So by not seeing MDawg's posts listed in the Top Ten, you feel better because you can coexist on other threads and make nice with him and his? And your anxiety level goes down because his thread titles exist out of your line of vision?

I hope, for the sake of logic and sanity that I am misinterpreting your post. I have to assume I have this wrong.

[Tasha]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile...And despite Sabre's Suspension ending yesterday, he is STILL Restricted. On Suspension list, it says his Suspension is Closed, meaning he should be back. Weird he is STILL Suspended.

[Mission146]

What difference does it make? The current crop of sites being advertised is no more or less legal than when Wizard was advertising Bovada/Bodog. The main difference is the site advertises multiple sites.

In terms of Admin staff and writing staff, we don't do anything to encourage people to gamble. We answer mathematical questions truthfully and to the best of our ability. My general gambling advice is, "Don't gamble on -EV games." They buried MDawg's thread (partially at your urging) because we don't want to give anyone the impression that systems or methods that defy the math have a long-term expectation of profit.

In short, we're doing as little to actually encourage people to gamble as a gambling site can do.

For my part, I don't claim it's legal in a state where it isn't...etc.

With all of that, if someone still wants to gamble, please use one of these sites and thank you.

Excuse me but YOURS is not exactly an unbiased opinion. First, no one said anything about Legal or illegal. Of course it is legal.

Also no one is accusing you or anyone that choses to work for (even for free) that forum and company of encouraging people to gamble. So let's get THAT out of the way.

But forums started by, owned and operated by, respected advantage players such as Shackleford, Wong, Norm and that still bear these peoples name and likeness (even in charature form), should not have that kind of association, in my opinion. It tarnishes the person's name in my opinion. To me there is a line as advantage players. Are you with us....or are you with "them".

Again, I want to be clear, Norm never did that and I respect that.

Yeah, that's cool. I think Wizard wanted his sites to make money without having to implement some sort of fee model, subscription model or selling anything on direct.

I'm also not a fan of that whole, "Them and Us," thing as any strict rule. Some people are just in favor of making money.

But, if someone wants to have a fee or subscription model or sell software, then that's also fine.

[kewlJ]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile.

That is a little odd, but those kind of glitches happen.

Bigger issue for me is someone like Sabre even being suspended. His personal insult was just telling the truth that Mdawgs claims are not true as he posts them. That members like sabre and other good, quality members, myself included, but really many, have repeatedly been suspended for telling the truth, is what I find bizarre. If good quality members are repeatedly being suspended for that, something needs to be re-evaluated.

It really goes back to the simple question, What is that forum now? Everyday it evolved more and more away from a forum based on gambling math as it was when it started and more and more, some odd social clubhouse with guys giving wedgies to one another and laughing about it.

[Mission146]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile...And despite Sabre's Suspension ending yesterday, he is STILL Restricted. On Suspension list, it says his Suspension is Closed, meaning he should be back. Weird he is STILL Suspended.

Should be fixed now. Since it was just a link error, I'm sure they won't mind that I did it.

[kewlJ]

Some people are just in favor of making money.

But, if someone wants to have a fee or subscription model or sell software, then that's also fine.

Actually, I had sort of forgotten that both BJ21 and Norm's forum to a lesser extent had a suscription fee. For BJ21, it was to access the section where most traffic and discussion took play. It used to be $14.95 a month and went up to $19.95 a month, with discounts for multiple months. haven't been a member since it was sold, so don't know what it is now. BJ21 also sold a lot of books and merchandise on the side. So together Fees and merchandising allowed for a profit. How much, I don't know.

Norm's form also has a section available only by monthly fee. The fee used to be $3.00 a month. It has been 6 years since I was a member. However on Norm's forum most of the traffic and discussion was on the main forum which didn't require the fee to access. Maybe things have changed. So that nominal fee and only some of the members paying it wouldn't result in a profit. Norm used to say covered some of the operating costs of the forum. Sounds very reasonable.

Now in addition, Norm did market his software. Over the years mabe he has made some money, supplemental money from his software products as most serious blackjack AP's have or have bought his products. But now, I suspect he only occasionally sells some software if a newer player pops up, which doesn't seem to occur too often.

So Norm is not making much if any money. He even has a 500 some page book, entitled Modern Blackjack, that is an excellent resourse for any player at any level, complete with hundreds of graphs and charts which is available for free. Now if you want a printed version, there is a fee. But Norm isn't making, nor isn't really about the money.

I feel a little funny, a little queezy, saying these good things about Norm, so I gotta stop now.

[BoSox]

Is it necessary for you to be so nasty, and call names on a subject that we both agree on?

And I do thank you for mentioning me as being part of the push to have Mdawg's fantasy thread hidden from the main front page section. It is good to see you and so many other continuing that fight as Mdawg tries to manipulate his way back to the front page.

edit: Upon further reading I see that you have flip flopped your position BoSox.

On appearance, it appears that I flip-flopped on my position but I believe that jbjb set me straight possibly a year ago and it was easy to forget. Considering the best way to support someone that you really do not want to is by completely ignoring his threads. That works wonderfully and actually allows for co-existence pertaining to threads on other subjects. I will watch how the thread Moderation/Moderation is going, but over there on the other site I'd rather not see MDawgs adventure in the ten latest posts positions. That way by not seeing it up there it is far easier to forget that they exist in the first place.

I have read many bizarro posts on this forum over the years, but this is a contender for top spot. So by not seeing MDawg's posts listed in the Top Ten, you feel better because you can coexist on other threads and make nice with him and his? And your anxiety level goes down because his thread titles exist out of your line of vision?

I hope, for the sake of logic and sanity that I am misinterpreting your post. I have to assume I have this wrong.

Who said anything about anxiety? Besides the way that you worded your post is not what I stated. Yes, you assumed incorrectly. By the way, you are an asshole.

[jbjb]

Someone tell EvenRetard that the sequence 27, 27, 27, 6, 21, 21, 21 has the EXACT SAME PROBABILITY of coming up as does 3, 9, 32, 23, 7, 0, 28.

[Tasha]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile...And despite Sabre's Suspension ending yesterday, he is STILL Restricted. On Suspension list, it says his Suspension is Closed, meaning he should be back. Weird he is STILL Suspended.

Should be fixed now. Since it was just a link error, I'm sure they won't mind that I did it.

Cool that you fixed it. Now, Sabre's profile shows up when I click on his name from The Suspension List. For some odd reason even after the link was fixed, Sabre still was Restricted until shortly after you fixed the link. It reminded me of when my Blackjackpro Account originally got a three day Suspension for sending Poker Grinder an unsolicited PM asking him for help. Poker Grinder ignored the Unsolicited PM asking him for help and instead Reported the PM to Admins and my Blackjackpro originally got a three day Suspension for sending that Unsolicited PM to Poker Grinder. On the fourth day, Maxpen mentioned my Blackjackpro Account was still banned despite being only a three day Suspension. More and more Suspension days were added until my Blackjackpro Account was Banned without ever being Reinstated. I was expecting an apology for the extended Suspension and a full Reinstatement, but got BANNED instead. For a little while, it looked like Sabre was headed that way.

[Ozzy]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile...And despite Sabre's Suspension ending yesterday, he is STILL Restricted. On Suspension list, it says his Suspension is Closed, meaning he should be back. Weird he is STILL Suspended.

Should be fixed now. Since it was just a link error, I'm sure they won't mind that I did it.

Cool that you fixed it. Now, Sabre's profile shows up when I click on his name from The Suspension List. For some odd reason even after the link was fixed, Sabre still was Restricted until shortly after you fixed the link. It reminded me of when my Blackjackpro Account originally got a three day Suspension for sending Poker Grinder an unsolicited PM asking him for help. Poker Grinder ignored the Unsolicited PM asking him for help and instead Reported the PM to Admins and my Blackjackpro originally got a three day Suspension for sending that Unsolicited PM to Poker Grinder. On the fourth day, Maxpen mentioned my Blackjackpro Account was still banned despite being only a three day Suspension. More and more Suspension days were added until my Blackjackpro Account was Banned without ever being Reinstated. I was expecting an apology for the extended Suspension and a full Reinstatement, but got BANNED instead. For a little while, it looked like Sabre was headed that way.

PokerGrinder was a rat stooly in this case just like his compadre DeMango. What do you expect from #5 and #6 respectively in the fan club.

[Tasha]

Should be fixed now. Since it was just a link error, I'm sure they won't mind that I did it.

Cool that you fixed it. Now, Sabre's profile shows up when I click on his name from The Suspension List. For some odd reason even after the link was fixed, Sabre still was Restricted until shortly after you fixed the link. It reminded me of when my Blackjackpro Account originally got a three day Suspension for sending Poker Grinder an unsolicited PM asking him for help. Poker Grinder ignored the Unsolicited PM asking him for help and instead Reported the PM to Admins and my Blackjackpro originally got a three day Suspension for sending that Unsolicited PM to Poker Grinder. On the fourth day, Maxpen mentioned my Blackjackpro Account was still banned despite being only a three day Suspension. More and more Suspension days were added until my Blackjackpro Account was Banned without ever being Reinstated. I was expecting an apology for the extended Suspension and a full Reinstatement, but got BANNED instead. For a little while, it looked like Sabre was headed that way.

PokerGrinder was a rat stooly in this case just like his compadre DeMango. What do you expect from #5 and #6 respectively in the fan club.

Yeah, I still don't know what I was thinking asking Poker Grinder for help. In Logical Hindsight, I should have asked an Admin for help, not Poker Grinder. How interesting that I used my one and only PM to ask Poker Grinder for help. I definitely would have lasted longer as Blackjackpro had I not sent Poker Grinder that PM asking him for help.

[Mission146]

Hmm. Something is REALLY weird at WOV.... On the Suspension List, I have clicked on Sabre's name Multiple times, and for some odd reason, instead of getting Sabre's Profile, I get someone else's profile. Beyond weird....huh... I have to click on Personal Insult after Sabre's name to be able to link to the personal insult and then be able to see Sabre's Profile...And despite Sabre's Suspension ending yesterday, he is STILL Restricted. On Suspension list, it says his Suspension is Closed, meaning he should be back. Weird he is STILL Suspended.

Should be fixed now. Since it was just a link error, I'm sure they won't mind that I did it.

Cool that you fixed it. Now, Sabre's profile shows up when I click on his name from The Suspension List. For some odd reason even after the link was fixed, Sabre still was Restricted until shortly after you fixed the link. It reminded me of when my Blackjackpro Account originally got a three day Suspension for sending Poker Grinder an unsolicited PM asking him for help. Poker Grinder ignored the Unsolicited PM asking him for help and instead Reported the PM to Admins and my Blackjackpro originally got a three day Suspension for sending that Unsolicited PM to Poker Grinder. On the fourth day, Maxpen mentioned my Blackjackpro Account was still banned despite being only a three day Suspension. More and more Suspension days were added until my Blackjackpro Account was Banned without ever being Reinstated. I was expecting an apology for the extended Suspension and a full Reinstatement, but got BANNED instead. For a little while, it looked like Sabre was headed that way.

See, I thought he was still restricted. Fixing that link is why I even looked in the first place, because I was seeing if I fixed the link correctly. I saw that he was still banned and decided that it's not really my place to unban him, even though I technically have the capability to do that...so I brought it up in the Discussion thread.

[Tasha]

How did Gundy not get into trouble with the WOV Admins for the disgusting post he made about Maids? I thought,"EEW!" When I read his post. I got a two week Suspension on WOV when I was merely trying to help a Newbie with a Progressive Question (I miscalculated how much coin in is needed to get a Progressive and I was suddenly thrown out the door for two weeks! Gundy's disgusting post about Maids is definitely worth a Suspension if merely miscalculating coin in for a Progressive is worth a two week Suspension... His post is WAY worse than my Progressive coin in advice was.

[Mission146]

That post was like, 45 minutes ago. Probably hasn't been seen yet.

[mcap]

How did Gundy not get into trouble with the WOV Admins for the disgusting post he made about Maids? I thought,"EEW!" When I read his post. I got a two week Suspension on WOV when I was merely trying to help a Newbie with a Progressive Question (I miscalculated how much coin in is needed to get a Progressive and I was suddenly thrown out the door for two weeks! Gundy's disgusting post about Maids is definitely worth a Suspension if merely miscalculating coin in for a Progressive is worth a two week Suspension... His post is WAY worse than my Progressive coin in advice was.

Go choke on a dick ya dumb cunt

[MisterV]

What's wrong with telling how casino maids stick the guest's toothbrush into their vagina?

They all do it, don't they?

That must be true, I read it on the internet.