The WoV Thread

[regnis]

I never heard of Eliot so I played with the google machine a little and found this.

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/p...-jacobson-phd/

Interesting thing is he didn't think the casinos had anything to fear from the BJ card counters.

[MisterV]

The antipathy between many AP's and teliot / the casinos should be put into context.

First and foremost: it's all just one big game.

Think of it like football: you've got offense (AP's) and defense (teliot / casinos): they study one another, they have a rivalry, but rarely is there or should there be hatred.

[kewlJ]

This is the thread to discuss Wizard of Vegas forum right? Some strange things going on over there concerning the members list.

Last week I alluded to the fact that the daily visits by members, has taken a sudden jump in the past couple weeks, reversing a declining trend of several years. Up until a few weeks ago, the daily member visits on weekdays was in the neighborhood of 150 (down 50% from just a couple years ago). On weekends, even lower, 140-ish daily visits from members, occasionally in the 130's on a Saturday. Lower weekend visits isn't unexpected.

So as I said just after the first of the year, these numbers seemed to "pop" with weekday daily visits hitting 180's most days (currently 185 at 10pm on a Wednesday) and weekends in the 160's. Finding it strange that this "pop' occurred and has remained for several weeks, bucking a several year declining trend, I just clicked on some of the names, focusing on the handles anyone who reads the forum is not familiar with, meaning handles that don't post much.

Interestingly there are about 20 new handles, most created the second week of January. And they log in every day but have no, or very few posts. Then there is a second group of 15 names/handles, that were created in 2009 and 2010, (which was like the very beginning of the site) and haven't participated in years, some for 9-10 years. Now all of the sudden they are logging in every day.

Let's see....how do I want to put this? Ok, I'll just say it. It appears somebody is trying to manipulate the numbers and make it look like more members are visiting all of the sudden.

And IF this is the case, I am guessing that second group that I mentioned, the handles that joined in 2009/2010 but have now been dormant for years until 2 weeks ago, are all sock puppets (well I think both groups are sock puppets), but the second group sock puppets that were created at the origin of the site to get visitors and discussions going. This is actually a casino trick as they will sometimes have a "shill" sit down at an empty table, knowing that will draw others players.

Anyway, just an interesting observation.

[Moses]

Interesting KJ. One thing I liked was the Blackjack Hand calculator I recently discovered. I don't read much on that forum. The format doesn't work for me. For instance, in your post above, I easily could pick and choose the paragraphs and/or sentences I wanted to read. Plus I can see comments from above and below of other posters. WoV and some other forums, you read the first few lines and then decide if you want to click to read more. I rarely click. Thus, don't visit.

That whole sock puppet thing is an interesting concept. Like you said, they make very profound statements and then disappear for years and then come back. Try putting your hand over the handle and reading. The dots are fairly easy to connect. Flash/T3 are the worst or best IMO.

FWIW. There is a current thread at BJTF called Interesting EV Discussion. Some newbie is wreaking havoc. Once a person is banned it's very difficult to go back and read old posts. But go down to be bottom of the thread and you can click on a thread started by you back in 2014 Discussion Battle.

I think you'll see the similarities of socks. That thread in 2014 actually had some useful info.

[RS__]

As for Eliot, I understand why many hate him personally, but is he any different than the Wiz working for V? Or what Monet is doing here? What is the threshold for putting plays out there? Anything posted may hurt someone.

I don't know exactly what Wizard did at/for Venetian. Do you? If so tell me. I mean I suspect it didn't favor AP's. I suspect being a math guy and AP, he pointed out some vulnerabilities. Stanford Wong and other have done so as well. And I am not crazy about that.

But Eliot Jacobson took it to a whole other level. He was clearly bitter that he could not make a go of it as an AP as he intended, so he set out to sabotage others by sharing everything he could with the industry in great detail. At times he wasn't even getting paid to do so, just did so out of bitterness.

AND there are stories that he even shared personal information about some AP's that knew, knew of, played with, had relationships with. I have never heard anyone remotely suggest that Wizard or Wong did that.

I asked him about it before. Although I don’t remember all the details, it seemed like he was following the Zender model. Deal more, worry less, and be nicer to customers.

He didn’t tell me he did any anti-AP stuff there. Maybe he did, but he didn’t tell me. Doubt it, either way. I don’t think Wizard knows of the sneaky or thinking-outside-the-box ways to get an advantage (same for Dancer), whereas someone like Grosjean does.

[kewlJ]

I don't know exactly what Wizard did at/for Venetian. Do you? If so tell me. I mean I suspect it didn't favor AP's. I suspect being a math guy and AP, he pointed out some vulnerabilities. Stanford Wong and other have done so as well. And I am not crazy about that.

But Eliot Jacobson took it to a whole other level. He was clearly bitter that he could not make a go of it as an AP as he intended, so he set out to sabotage others by sharing everything he could with the industry in great detail. At times he wasn't even getting paid to do so, just did so out of bitterness.

AND there are stories that he even shared personal information about some AP's that knew, knew of, played with, had relationships with. I have never heard anyone remotely suggest that Wizard or Wong did that.

I asked him about it before. Although I don’t remember all the details, it seemed like he was following the Zender model. Deal more, worry less, and be nicer to customers.

He didn’t tell me he did any anti-AP stuff there. Maybe he did, but he didn’t tell me. Doubt it, either way. I don’t think Wizard knows of the sneaky or thinking-outside-the-box ways to get an advantage (same for Dancer), whereas someone like Grosjean does.

I accept that RS_. I have always given both Mike Shackleford and Stanford Wong the benefit of doubt on this. That is why I continued participating on their forums, despite knowing of their involvement with casinos. And I will continue to give the benefit of doubt, until I have reason not to.


As for the "Zender model", this is perhaps one of the most perplexing developments by the casino industry that I have ever seen. Universally throughout the industry, Bill Zender is respected and thought to be an expert, and yet the industry basically rejected and ignored his conclusions.

I have often thought it was because sometime around the turn of the century, late 1990's/early 2000's, the industry went the MBA route. Instead of casino guys, who know the casino business running the show, most casinos began going with the young hot-shots with business degrees. And the business models used was not the Casino business model and way casino should and have always been run.

Instead of offering fair games, comps, bonus incentives to grow the customer base, this new model was to cut everything and squeeze the customer base. The result: the customer base shrinks a bit. So they then tighten some more and squeeze the smaller bases even harder. This continues until the customer bases is all but gone.

I first saw this play out in Atlantic City during my time there. But there were other factors at play, like neighboring casinos getting casino gambling, which served to camouflage what was really occurring (or offer an alternative excuse). Then I moved to Vegas and the exact same scenario has played out with the Local type casinos. Tighten rules, lower pay-tables, cut offers, squeeze the customer base (local players). And as the base shrinks , you squeeze that smaller customer base even more.

Now the strip is a different beast. They can get away with this some, because they believe they have an unlimited customer base, every day, plane loads of new people show up. But the locals casinos, just like Atlantic City have/had a finite base. You can only squeeze so long until there is nothing left to squeeze.

I always though if some local type casino, that caters to the locals, were to really embrace the "Zender philosophy", their numbers would go through the roof and everyone else would follow suit. Unfortunately, I am still waiting.

[MaxPen]

I don't know exactly what Wizard did at/for Venetian. Do you? If so tell me. I mean I suspect it didn't favor AP's. I suspect being a math guy and AP, he pointed out some vulnerabilities. Stanford Wong and other have done so as well. And I am not crazy about that.

But Eliot Jacobson took it to a whole other level. He was clearly bitter that he could not make a go of it as an AP as he intended, so he set out to sabotage others by sharing everything he could with the industry in great detail. At times he wasn't even getting paid to do so, just did so out of bitterness.

AND there are stories that he even shared personal information about some AP's that knew, knew of, played with, had relationships with. I have never heard anyone remotely suggest that Wizard or Wong did that.

I asked him about it before. Although I don’t remember all the details, it seemed like he was following the Zender model. Deal more, worry less, and be nicer to customers.

He didn’t tell me he did any anti-AP stuff there. Maybe he did, but he didn’t tell me. Doubt it, either way. I don’t think Wizard knows of the sneaky or thinking-outside-the-box ways to get an advantage (same for Dancer), whereas someone like Grosjean does.

I accept that RS_. I have always given both Mike Shackleford and Stanford Wong the benefit of doubt on this. That is why I continued participating on their forums, despite knowing of their involvement with casinos. And I will continue to give the benefit of doubt, until I have reason not to.


As for the "Zender model", this is perhaps one of the most perplexing developments by the casino industry that I have ever seen. Universally throughout the industry, Bill Zender is respected and thought to be an expert, and yet the industry basically rejected and ignored his conclusions.

I have often thought it was because sometime around the turn of the century, late 1990's/early 2000's, the industry went the MBA route. Instead of casino guys, who know the casino business running the show, most casinos began going with the young hot-shots with business degrees. And the business models used was not the Casino business model and way casino should and have always been run.

Instead of offering fair games, comps, bonus incentives to grow the customer base, this new model was to cut everything and squeeze the customer base. The result: the customer base shrinks a bit. So they then tighten some more and squeeze the smaller bases even harder. This continues until the customer bases is all but gone.

I first saw this play out in Atlantic City during my time there. But there were other factors at play, like neighboring casinos getting casino gambling, which served to camouflage what was really occurring (or offer an alternative excuse). Then I moved to Vegas and the exact same scenario has played out with the Local type casinos. Tighten rules, lower pay-tables, cut offers, squeeze the customer base (local players). And as the base shrinks , you squeeze that smaller customer base even more.

Now the strip is a different beast. They can get away with this some, because they believe they have an unlimited customer base, every day, plane loads of new people show up. But the locals casinos, just like Atlantic City have/had a finite base. You can only squeeze so long until there is nothing left to squeeze.

I always though if some local type casino, that caters to the locals, were to really embrace the "Zender philosophy", their numbers would go through the roof and everyone else would follow suit. Unfortunately, I am still waiting.

Alan was milked liked a dairy cow by these casinos. Red Rock still goes to the tit once a month. Maybe when Alan says he will not be going back, then I can believe the casinos are in trouble. I do wonder though, how many Alan's are waiting in the wings to join the line of lollipops making their way into the casinos week after week?

[kewlJ]

Alan was milked liked a dairy cow by these casinos. Red Rock still goes to the tit once a month. Maybe when Alan says he will not be going back, then I can believe the casinos are in trouble. I do wonder though, how many Alan's are waiting in the wings to join the line of lollipops making their way into the casinos week after week?

I don't want to talk about Alan gambling habits specifically. I think you have sufficiently covered that, MaxPen.

But those of us that frequent the local type casinos here in Vegas, see an awful lot of "Alans" (as frightening as that sounds ). I am talking patrons in their 60's, 70's even beyond. I am going to guess the median age that I see is in the 60's. That is of all customers. Now granted because I tend to try to stay away on Friday/Saturday nights, maybe I am not seeing some of the younger crowds.

But anyway, my question is, of that older customer base that I see frequently, is that sustainable for the casinos? I mean logic tells you that people in their 60's, 70's, and older, aren't going to be around in 20, 25 years. Is there a new generation of people, maybe working now, that is going to step in an fill that void when they hit 60's? Because I think there is a generation issue. I am not so sure the younger generation, that grew up with technology and games on their phones, and computers, is going to be as excited by the bells and whistles of casino slot games? Thoughts?

[MaxPen]

Alan was milked liked a dairy cow by these casinos. Red Rock still goes to the tit once a month. Maybe when Alan says he will not be going back, then I can believe the casinos are in trouble. I do wonder though, how many Alan's are waiting in the wings to join the line of lollipops making their way into the casinos week after week?

I don't want to talk about Alan gambling habits specifically. I think you have sufficiently covered that, MaxPen.

But those of us that frequent the local type casinos here in Vegas, see an awful lot of "Alans" (as frightening as that sounds ). I am talking patrons in their 60's, 70's even beyond. I am going to guess the median age that I see is in the 60's. That is of all customers. Now granted because I tend to try to stay away on Friday/Saturday nights, maybe I am not seeing some of the younger crowds.

But anyway, my question is, of that older customer base that I see frequently, is that sustainable for the casinos? I mean logic tells you that people in their 60's, 70's, and older, aren't going to be around in 20, 25 years. Is there a new generation of people, maybe working now, that is going to step in an fill that void when they hit 60's? Because I think there is a generation issue. I am not so sure the younger generation, that grew up with technology and games on their phones, and computers, is going to be as excited by the bells and whistles of casino slot games? Thoughts?

I doubt that I have scratched the surface as to matters regarding Alan's gambling addictions. I do wonder where the future casino patrons are going to come from. I am now in my 50's and can remember almost everyone I knew in my 20's had some sort of interest in gambling and the allure of such activities. You just don't see it in very many below the age of 40 now.

[Alan Mendelson]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

[The Boz]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

Hey stupid fuck Alan. By your own questioning, how much longer are they going to send you $75 in FP when you walk away without playing? You can’t even keep your questions and statements straight.

You always question Monet and others on how they keep getting FP without cycling many times that through. Yet magically you keep getting FP week after week.

Yea, Max is the troll here. Get real you fucking degenerate.

And pay your son. (Added to give you more to complain about).

[MaxPen]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

It's not trolling. Just using you as an example. I think your story is quite common. Your generation is the last of the lollipops in my opinion. These casinos have ground you up and spit you out leaving you broken and busted. They need to find new fish and the streams don't seem to be getting restocked, based on my observations.
By your own words, they have been reduced to gnawing on your bones thru the senior's craps hour and 25¢ VP. That's a long way away from a $25 VP player hitting 100k jackpots. It's also a 100x reduction in income for the casino.

[Alan Mendelson]

This is interesting. Within minutes of either MaxPen or Boz posting the other appears. Is one a sock puppet? Or do we have Siamese Trolls?

To answer your question, troll #2, I don't know how long the $75 free weekly table bet will continue. But I still get $30 twice a week in slot play even though I just play 25-cent VP. And I still get a $50 dining voucher and a $25 dining voucher each month. I'll use them as I get them.

By the way, I haven't played at Caesars since December of 2017 and I still get offers for free nights (up to 5) and offers for gift cards or free play of $300. My latest offer came just last week.

Thanks for trolling.

[jbjb]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

You we're better off betting the coupon on the DP. Here's Grosjean's "Beyond Coupons" link. Scroll down to page 7 for "funny chip*" values.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...7rxld70lTS83yJ

*funny chips and free bets are the same thing.

[The Boz]

This is interesting. Within minutes of either MaxPen or Boz posting the other appears. Is one a sock puppet? Or do we have Siamese Trolls?

To answer your question, troll #2, I don't know how long the $75 free weekly table bet will continue. But I still get $30 twice a week in slot play even though I just play 25-cent VP. And I still get a $50 dining voucher and a $25 dining voucher each month. I'll use them as I get them.

By the way, I haven't played at Caesars since December of 2017 and I still get offers for free nights (up to 5) and offers for gift cards or free play of $300. My latest offer came just last week.

Thanks for trolling.

BS, why haven’t you taken them up on it? Anyone living in Vegas would book the room if needed and take the FP and not worry about burning them. $300 is $300 for anyone, let alone someone like you.

And Thanks Alan for being the Original Founder of this site. Your legacy is only growing.

[Alan Mendelson]

Yes, I could. But I have no reason to stay at the hotel or even bother to check in, collect and leave.

In the past I opposed that strategy. I think it bites you in the ass. Someday I will need the room nights for out of town guests so why kill it?

[Alan Mendelson]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

You we're better off betting the coupon on the DP. Here's Grosjean's "Beyond Coupons" link. Scroll down to page 7 for "funny chip*" values.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...7rxld70lTS83yJ

*funny chips and free bets are the same thing.

Yes. The don't pass has a slight advantage over the pass, but had my $75 free bet won with a 7 or 11 I would have continued to play $15 on the Bonus and $10 pass and pocketed the $45 profit.

[jbjb]

No casino is surviving on my 25-cent video poker play or my $5 craps play. Red Rock does have $5 craps in the early morning hours.

By the way, this past Monday morning I had a $75 free table bet. I went to Red Rock at about 5am (I prefer an empty table) and put my $75 voucher on the passline and put out a $5 bill for any craps.

I threw a 3. I lost the $75 voucher but was paid $40 for the any craps bet. I walked to the cage, cashed and left.

Thanks for trolling MaxPen.

You we're better off betting the coupon on the DP. Here's Grosjean's "Beyond Coupons" link. Scroll down to page 7 for "funny chip*" values.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...7rxld70lTS83yJ

*funny chips and free bets are the same thing.

Yes. The don't pass has a slight advantage over the pass, but had my $75 free bet won with a 7 or 11 I would have continued to play $15 on the Bonus and $10 pass and pocketed the $45 profit.

Win or lose, just leave after betting the coupon.

[jbjb]

Yes, I could. But I have no reason to stay at the hotel or even bother to check in, collect and leave.

In the past I opposed that strategy. I think it bites you in the ass. Someday I will need the room nights for out of town guests so why kill it?

So what....take the money and run!

[Alan Mendelson]

Jbjb.... how many times can you take the money and run?

Haven't you been reading on this forum how Caesars is cutting offers? After January 31st I will no longer be Seven Stars. Whatever "goodwill" I have now I want to preserve for when I might need it. In other words, I might hold out for a future advantage play.