The WoV Thread

[mcap]

Question: was the Wiz ever a renowned blackjack AP?

Why are you asking me? You are on that site....ask him.

Lack of balls? Look, I doubt that the "Wizard" was or is a renowned anything.

Renowned gaming mathematician for sure. Like or dislike him there’s no legitimate question to that

[MisterV]

Were I to ask the Wiz on his board whether he was previously a renowned bj AP, I am quite certain he'd do an "Aw, shucks" routine.

Better to ask others, as I want the answer to be objective, not subjective.

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

[mickeycrimm]

My guess is the maids are used to seeing rooms not used. There has to be some people who check in, dump their luggage in the room then hit the casino floor and don't leave it until it's time to check out.

[Bill Yung]

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

[AxelWolf]

MrBo = KJ

Hardly!

MrBo and I differ on several topics. He thinks I post too much. I am thinking....not enough.

MrBo apparently feels bad and wants to help ZenKing. That ship has sailed for me. I think ZenKing is a nut, who deserves most of the shit he is getting because of his idiotic comments. I think ZenKing is not cut out for Blackjack card counting or any kind of AP. He should move on to the next thing in his life.

If I remember correctly, over-moderator Babs, looked into MrBo, when he first showed up and declared him not a previous member. I am guessing the others looked into that too.

But you know what, if MrBo is the guy from the old blackjackinfo, he is a BJ hall of fame guy (I am pretty sure). Doesn't Mike know and have contact with the Hall of Fame guys. He should be able to easily confirm. Or maybe he has and that's why he has remained silent.

I have come to think pretty little of you Axel, so I expect very little of you. But you continue to surprise me and set the bar at new lows with such a unfounded and easily disproven suggestion. I guess all is fair in disparaging me. Just make shit up!

methinks thou dost protest too much.

[kewlJ]

MrBo = KJ

Hardly!

MrBo and I differ on several topics. He thinks I post too much. I am thinking....not enough.

MrBo apparently feels bad and wants to help ZenKing. That ship has sailed for me. I think ZenKing is a nut, who deserves most of the shit he is getting because of his idiotic comments. I think ZenKing is not cut out for Blackjack card counting or any kind of AP. He should move on to the next thing in his life.

If I remember correctly, over-moderator Babs, looked into MrBo, when he first showed up and declared him not a previous member. I am guessing the others looked into that too.

But you know what, if MrBo is the guy from the old blackjackinfo, he is a BJ hall of fame guy (I am pretty sure). Doesn't Mike know and have contact with the Hall of Fame guys. He should be able to easily confirm. Or maybe he has and that's why he has remained silent.

I have come to think pretty little of you Axel, so I expect very little of you. But you continue to surprise me and set the bar at new lows with such a unfounded and easily disproven suggestion. I guess all is fair in disparaging me. Just make shit up!

methinks thou dost protest too much.

Care to wager? Name your price. And I will expect an apology as well. I think I can get Munchkin to contact and confirm who MrBo is. I assume you would accept Munchkins word. Or are you just being the complete dick that you have come to be of late?

[Spock]

Renowned gaming mathematician for sure. Like or dislike him there’s no legitimate question to that

And his original claim to fame was writing a program that tracked baby names, which apparently had never been done before.

[mickeycrimm]

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

I'm not a fan of Shackleford on a personal level but can you name a site that is anything comparable to to WOO? No, you can't. I'll say this so a 3rd grader can understand it so then maybe you will. MATHEMATICS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL OF GAMBLING. The only thing that is useless and trite around here is your ignorant opinions.

[mickeycrimm]

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

I'm not a fan of Shackleford on a personal level but can you name a site that is anything comparable to to WOO? No, you can't. I'll say this so a 3rd grader can understand it so then maybe you will. MATHEMATICS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL OF GAMBLING. The only thing that is useless and trite around here is your ignorant opinions.

[Bill Yung]

Mickey, please go to a real math site, for a minute, to see what is mathematics.

https://math.stackexchange.com/

https://math.stackexchange.com/quest...ame-number-but

Shackleford knows only enough about, say, game theory to look like a jackass. You think that over the years he would have at least tried to learn something about game theory, but this was never his intent. His "work" is a "steaming" pile. A third-grade pile, relatively speaking. Jacobson tolerated him just long enough to peddle his own gambling wares.

Gambling math is mathematical, but mathematics ain't gambling math. There isn't "anything comparable" to either of his sites. Nobody else but the other gambling authors would bother.

[MisterV]

There may be more powerful math wizards, point taken, but his WoO site has been of benefit to the gambling public.

[mcap]

Lol at bringing up Jacobsen as someone better. Very few people who have much of a clue on either side of the table have much respect for him or his “work” of regurgitating and verifying others work. Only helpful for the clueless, who mostly don’t care anyway.

[monet]

I have been lurking for awhile now. I really do not even care or want to post anymore. Not even all the homeless talk could bring me out even though I had decent counterpoints. However after reading all this talk about the Wizard of Odds (MS), it is difficult not to post something. After actually meeting up with some of his members and knowing other math guys and gamblers I start to get a clear picture. As I have said before most people who defend this Wiz have some sort of interest in the real world with him or on the net and this is of a financial nature not a nature of being his friend. They aren't buddy buddy with him because they enjoy spending time with him. Most people who do know him say that they can't be around him more than an hour or so. Perhaps it is the other way around, perhaps the Wiz is too busy to be around them for extended periods of time. I don't know the guy but I knew for years that I didn't like his style. This Wiz isn't original at all. He doesn't condone illegal or immoral behavior but he admits to taking a known Mobsters Handle and he sure does talk about prostitutes a lot and even tells people where to find the better monetary value with prostitutes!?

I agree with Bill Yung and others about the guy. Those who think his site actually helped APs overall are wrong. He actually hurts AP. This isn't to say some clever APs haven't cozied up to him and used him for personal gains. That is clearly true. A year or so ago this Wiz went on his own site moaning and groaning about how some AP hustled him out of a few grand and never returned his calls or texts. A clear sucker, this Wiz lending out money to obvious Hustlers. I also agree with Bill Yung that this Wiz isn't very impressive and he basically has found a niche in the gaming world working both sides of the fence.

KewlJ brings up very valid points. On the internet and especially on WoV they talk a good game about how honest and moral they are but when you meet these people in real life you find that most of them are as crooked or more so than myself. Trust me the AP, gambling, hustler world is not an honest one and you will be hard pressed to find anyone being genuine. They don't want to be your friends or go out and do other things that don't involve making money. As a matter of fact if they know you have dough they will either ask to work for you in some way or ask to borrow it. Rightfully so! This AP world is about hustling and every hustler knows that being able to hustle a fellow hustler is more rewarding because to hustle someone who is wise is more difficult to do. I don't partake in hustling the hustlers anymore because I don't enjoy it but I am very keen on seeing the angles.

[RS__]

I have been lurking for awhile now. I really do not even care or want to post anymore. Not even all the homeless talk could bring me out even though I had decent counterpoints. However after reading all this talk about the Wizard of Odds (MS), it is difficult not to post something. After actually meeting up with some of his members and knowing other math guys and gamblers I start to get a clear picture. As I have said before most people who defend this Wiz have some sort of interest in the real world with him or on the net and this is of a financial nature not a nature of being his friend. They aren't buddy buddy with him because they enjoy spending time with him. Most people who do know him say that they can't be around him more than an hour or so. Perhaps it is the other way around, perhaps the Wiz is too busy to be around them for extended periods of time. I don't know the guy but I knew for years that I didn't like his style. This Wiz isn't original at all. He doesn't condone illegal or immoral behavior but he admits to taking a known Mobsters Handle and he sure does talk about prostitutes a lot and even tells people where to find the better monetary value with prostitutes!?

I agree with Bill Yung and others about the guy. Those who think his site actually helped APs overall are wrong. He actually hurts AP. This isn't to say some clever APs haven't cozied up to him and used him for personal gains. That is clearly true. A year or so ago this Wiz went on his own site moaning and groaning about how some AP hustled him out of a few grand and never returned his calls or texts. A clear sucker, this Wiz lending out money to obvious Hustlers. I also agree with Bill Yung that this Wiz isn't very impressive and he basically has found a niche in the gaming world working both sides of the fence.

KewlJ brings up very valid points. On the internet and especially on WoV they talk a good game about how honest and moral they are but when you meet these people in real life you find that most of them are as crooked or more so than myself. Trust me the AP, gambling, hustler world is not an honest one and you will be hard pressed to find anyone being genuine. They don't want to be your friends or go out and do other things that don't involve making money. As a matter of fact if they know you have dough they will either ask to work for you in some way or ask to borrow it. Rightfully so! This AP world is about hustling and every hustler knows that being able to hustle a fellow hustler is more rewarding because to hustle someone who is wise is more difficult to do. I don't partake in hustling the hustlers anymore because I don't enjoy it but I am very keen on seeing the angles.

Jeez. I’m surprised people have actually wanted to meet you with all your shit about cheating and hustling other people. Just because you do all that crap doesn’t mean everyone else does.

[monet]

Let's put it this way RS. I'm in town now 25 years solid. Your upset because I am honest about being dishonest and telling these boards that the real truth is that anyone in the AP world is just as bad. You don't like it and that's ok but usually a guy like myself who admits to the ugly side is more willing to be less an ass in real life compared to the posters on forums who talk all moral and honest. I've met over a dozen players from these boards. Every time I pay all expenses. Thousand dollar dinners. 500 to 2000 dollar bottles of wine. Free Rooms and comp off of my own account asking for nothing in return. You talk a good game but I back my Bull Shit up with action. You don't like it... go jump in Lake Mead. I for one help the sigheeds of the world while someone like you tells people hustling Ultimate X machines to F Off! Yes it is true you and I are completely different.

[mcap]

Don’t try to justify and reason about why you’re a piece of shit, youre still being a pile of dung

[mickeycrimm]

Oh Yung, it's got nothing to do with "balls," although I suspect you're unable to see that; it would seem that the subtle nuances of polite society elude your grasp.

Oh, V. Excessive politeness is for they who don't really know what they are doing. Go find one real mathematician who is independent of the "gambling math" scene who will confer with the five or six people who will always be up the "Wizard's" ass. Find me just one. Genius or otherwise renowned transcends area of science, idiocy and hobby. People should've ask this particular question from the outset. It's all a bunch of relatively useless and trite gambling math that was hashed out long before by scores of others. He merely traded off on what bland mathematics credentials he had, to "suck in" the more refined or polite fools.

I've already been on stackexchange and even got one of those guys to post up here. Yes, they are degree'd mathematicians and very good. But so is Shackleford. He was a goddam actuary, for Christ sake. Put up some of your math so we can compare yours to his.

[mickeycrimm]

I think I may have known there was something fucked up about the Wizard before anyone else here or on WoV did. I can't remember exactly what year it was, maybe 2003 or 4. I had gleaned his single deck compositional strategy for blackjack off his site to work the IGT full pay video blackjack. The only thing I couldn't get was the 6-card charlie strategy and one other rule. If you look through his rules chart for the effect they have on the game you will find a rule for "Dealer stands on six cards." I'm personally responsible for that rule being on his chart.

That was one of the rules for the IGT game. I had no idea if it helped or hurt the player. I asked the Wiz about it in his Ask The Wizard column and signed it "Mickey in Reno." A couple weeks later he posted in his column "Mickey in Reno wants to know what the payback for video blackjack is. The answer is it depends on the rules." The asshole made me look like a complete idiot. I had friends in Reno that picked on me about it. "Hey, Mickey, what's the payback of video blackjack?" Then they would laugh their asses off.

A couple of weeks after that the rule popped up in his rules chart. He never would have heard about that rule if it wasn't for me. He took all the credit and made me look like an idiot. I said to myself right then "this dude is a punk motherfucker."

[AxelWolf]

Hustle the casinos, not people and you can sleep at night and hold your head up high.

If your cheating people, it's not a matter of if, its when you will be caught.

I have been offered money for this or that regarding AP and I have never taken it.

I could have sold out a few times, but I never have.

I probably could have made more money working the dark side or hustling people. Hell, I hear people were making a shitload creating on UX and what not.

I could not look at myself in the mirror, or look at my GF and friends in the face I would feel like a piece of shit.

[MaxPen]

I have met many people from the boards and consider a few good friends. I have yet to meet someone that tried to take advantage of me. Probably because I am a good judge of character and dismissed them almost immediately upon first contact. Even people that I personally disagree with on various topics are fun to associate with.

PS- I'm not sure what can be made creating on UX but that seems so not worthwhile.