The WoV Thread

[monet]

LarryS... I'm not very smart but honestly Mr V admits he likes the drama. We all like a good movie. Let's look at Mr V jumping from one side of the line to the other just in a week or so. Mr V starts the Spring Fling/WoV CoN Thread... lol WoV CoN... con job... get it. Anyways he gets them all going because he wants to make reservations. Not long after that he comes in here and says he most likely won't be going. Next he gives WoV strife over this private/secret meeting saying they are paranoid and they have nothing to worry about. Next he goes to the WoV Poll thread making them press for a date so he can make a reservation. After that he jumps on the side of it's a good thing that it's private and admits that this is now the world we live in. Very inconsistent and he just likes to have fun. He has no idea about the AP world in my opinion. He asks me very direct questions to learn about beating Reels and I answer them but trust me he don't care about that. It seems he likes to brush elbows with the Wizard and gambling degenerates. Pretty simple really. It isn't hard to follow these people if you read all of their posts. Mission says I can't connect the dots but it isn't hard since I know the players and types of people and all the silence is damning them. Very dishonestly discreet actions from this obvious underworld.

[LarryS]

your observations are valid.

years ago I dubbed him "the chameleon"

[MisterV]

I started the thread because someone needed to.

I asked Monet for info on slots because that is what I play, recreationally.

I urged the group to agree on a WoVCon date for the good of the order.

Whether I attend or not is irrelevant.

Nothing at all inconsistent, nothing to see here, folks, move on.

[monet]

your observations are valid.

years ago I dubbed him "the chameleon"

Let me help you understand a little more. I posted up some AP information. It wasn't long after this tiny post I get the PM from a real AP asking me why are you posting that. These members have no clue what real AP is about. I say something like I'll post whatever I want. The conversation ends. So this begs the question... what are just a few APs on this board for? I think some are here for the stories and to share like MC shares his road pics. I think the others or most of the real APs are here to recruit or like WoN to scam. I think you have a few APs who lurk and hope for some leaked information. Obviously most of them aren't sharing real stories or how to AP... they just are looking to expand and make percentages off of the suckers who like to rub elbows with gaming professionals.

[LarryS]

And what better folks to "rub elbows with than mods of a message board. A board that can be used to recruit
I think that its possible that the wiz and mods have "rubbed ebows" with a wide variety of APs in the category that you describe
Hence their silence when one of those APs that you describe gets "outed"

Let me ask you this monet. Did BBB know how you self describe yourself online when she accepted the comps you graciously bestowed on her?

[monet]

And what better folks to "rub elbows with than mods of a message board. A board that can be used to recruit
I think that its possible that the wiz and mods have "rubbed ebows" with a wide variety of APs in the category that you describe
Hence their silence when one of those APs that you describe gets "outed"

Let me ask you this monet. Did BBB know how you self describe yourself online when she accepted the comps you graciously bestowed on her?

Are you kidding!? I'm very consistent and always keep hammering the same themes over and over. She wasn't hustling me or asking for comps. I was curious to meet anyone on WoV because they paint a very different picture of the AP or Vegas World that I've known my whole life. I was thinking maybe team play is better and I can make more money with these WoVers. I have so much comp I can't get rid of it because I'm lazy to sell it or give it away. She mentioned that she was in town for the super bowl. I asked if she needed a room or comps. She had a room up until Monday but might be going to California. I told her let me know because I can get her a suite with plenty of comp at the 4 Queens or Fremont. I wanted the Fremont because my host owes me big time. She wanted the 4 Queens... ok no problem. She has wanted to meet me for over a year and i finally agreed. Dinner was nice. I set her up with the room and gave her enough refreshments for 3 days. I have nothing against her but it was obvious she was fishing for someone to sponsor her on plays. Three problems... her health issues, I partner I don't sponsor or back players, and she doesn't live in Vegas.

I always tell people upfront about my past. I don't want people friending me and later hate me because I wasn't upfront with them. Many people can't handle this truth. They would rather you lie to them and act like your a saint. I don't know if I answered your question enough but you should get a good feel about the experience.

[Bill Yung]

Fuck 'em first. So they don't get any ideas, or come to think you owe them something.

[LarryS]

I appreciate the honesty. And it helps me appreciate the weight and truth of what you have been saying all along.

squeaky clean wov is anything but.

mission hung out and probably didnt enrich himself with any comps from an accused conman, BBB hung out and accepted over 1000 dollars worth of comps from an admitted conman, and who know what the big wiz of munchkinland accumulated over the years and from who. Maybe QFIT or a friend of QFIT hooked him up with wine women and song. All of a sudden the kj execution has some reasoning behind it other than just "being friends" with QFIT.

Even though QFIT stayed after KJ was gone.....he broke rules and even had BBB tell him to stop. Yet he continued for many pages.....and her hands were tied IT SEEMS....because she recognized the rule breaking and his trolling/harping one one issue over and over...but she stood silent after her original warning. And the wiz didnt back her up...and suspend qfit himself.

If wov people are hanging with people who personally enrich them....even people of questionable conduct....then anyone who skates from getting punished has to be viewed as a sponsor of some mod.....

edit addition_-- when i say sponsor I dont mean sponsor by a mutual agreement. I mean sponsor by circumstances where someone is now indebted if not by agreement then by their own view of fairness

[monet]

Fuck 'em first. So they don't get any ideas, or come to think you owe them something.

If you people read this post you can see how sharp William is. This is why when I play the game I do it from a position of F U. I have told everyone when you do anything you really want to have this position. This is why I will give the greedy everything for free. It definitely gives me the upper hand. I also like having all the cards or information on others compared to them having the information on me. So first tell them or everyone your past and how evil you are which is true. Be completely honest and transparent because 99.99% of others are going to hide the dark or bad information. This will always give you the edge in the underworld. Now these people can dig up your name and information on you but since your open and upfront they have no ammunition because you have already disarmed them by telling the truth as brutal as it seems.

It is obvious that William Yung understand psychological warfare and is to be respected in my opinion.

[redietz]

I appreciate the honesty. And it helps me appreciate the weight and truth of what you have been saying all along.

squeaky clean wov is anything but.

mission hung out and probably didnt enrich himself with any comps from an accused conman, BBB hung out and accepted over 1000 dollars worth of comps from an admitted conman, and who know what the big wiz of munchkinland accumulated over the years and from who. Maybe QFIT or a friend of QFIT hooked him up with wine women and song. All of a sudden the kj execution has some reasoning behind it other than just "being friends" with QFIT.

Even though QFIT stayed after KJ was gone.....he broke rules and even had BBB tell him to stop. Yet he continued for many pages.....and her hands were tied IT SEEMS....because she recognized the rule breaking and his trolling/harping one one issue over and over...but she stood silent after her original warning. And the wiz didnt back her up...and suspend qfit himself.

If wov people are hanging with people who personally enrich them....even people of questionable conduct....then anyone who skates from getting punished has to be viewed as a sponsor of some mod.....

edit addition_-- when i say sponsor I dont mean sponsor by a mutual agreement. I mean sponsor by circumstances where someone is now indebted if not by agreement then by their own view of fairness

I have to agree with LarryS on this one vis-à-vis kewlj and Qfit. It puts the kewlj banning in a different light altogether. Basically, Qfit was running a con, and Shackleford wanted the con to continue. That's a more elegant explanation than some interpersonal speculation stuff.

"Surprise, surprise!" as Gomer Pyle used to say.

[RS__]

What con was Qfit a part of....?

[kewlJ]

What con was Qfit a part of....?

Are you serious? You watched it on multiple forums! Are you getting so old you are becoming forgetful?

This whole thing was about T3 on Qfit's site. T3 making bullshit claims to intentionally mislead other people. Claims that were and still are mathematically impossible! Similarly to 18 y.o.'s in row....type impossible! And when people began to call him out on it, Norm (Qfit) chose to protect T3!

You tell me why? Norm is a math guy....He KNEW these claims were complete bullshit! So why did he chose to protect this fraud making Alan Mendleson-like claims? Could it be that T3 was the leading poster by far on that site (Thousands more posts than the next poster)???

These guys that run these sites have a different agenda, especially in light of Wizards success selling his site. For a site owner, it is about traffic. The leading poster creates that. And frankly allowing these BS claims creates more traffic as other legitimate AP's that know better weigh in. And in Qfit's case protecting this dipshit not only created traffic, but all those discussions of different counts, like this magical, like this super duper (impossible) count increased software sales. That is the way to disprove these mathematically impossible claims...run simulations. You do that with software.

Basically what I am saying is Norm a math guy sold out in the hopes of site traffic, hoping for a big payday like Shackleford received. And when I and the two other professional players, and you know who they are RS, Norm Banned me and drove the other two from his site (they have since returned). So I took my case to other AP related sites, not realizing that Norm could shut and censor me at other sites.

BUT that is exactly what he did. He came to WoV, where he swore he would never participate because he didn't trust Shackleford, and begged, threatened, manipulated, called in favors to have Mike shut me down. And having done that, he has disappeared again.....because he NEVER intended to participate at WOV. He just played Wizard. Oh sure, Qfit makes a few token posts every couple months, usually right after I point out that he hasn't posted.

Is your memory coming back now RS, because you were right there on both sites throughout the who ordeal. Like me and the other two players, you were even pretty critical of both T3 and Norm. You are a smart guy RS (despite you faulty memory). You tell me everything I just said isn't true. Forget, that you are a big Wizard supporter and don't like things I said after my banning. That is a different matter. The question was about the "con" that Norm perpetrated on the blackjack AP community.

[kewlJ]

And you know what?...for Wizards part, he and I discussed the completely impossible claims that T3 made that are really at the heart of this "con". Mike agreed the claims sounded mathematically impossible, but he wanted to read them for himself. He said he would check out Norm's site and read through T3's posts.

I am willing to bet Mike never did so. For despite my feeling about how Mike handled this situation, he is a math guy and I don't believe, if he had read these claims he wouldn't have been right there arguing the mathematical impossibility, just as I, and others, including you, and eventually Don Schlesinger were.

[RS__]

Yeah, I remember all that stuff. I'd say it's pretty far-fetched to call that a con, though. There are plenty of people that make stupid ass claims, doesn't mean the admin(s) is/are conning people. IIRC, Norm responded to Tthree several times saying the things he was writing weren't true or at minimum sleight-of-hand'ish (EG: You can increase your edge by doing X and sorta multiply it by introducing Y, sometimes, but other times you can't do that -- for instance, learning a bunch of negative indices doesn't add much if anything if you wong out aggressively).

[kewlJ]

Un hun. Increase your edge 500%?? Remember that! Card counters play to about a 1% advantage, with a healthy spread. This guy was claiming a 5% edge (500% increase) from his super duper count. You can't get that kind of edge in card counting, without a computer strapped to your leg and I am not even sure then.

The thing is that when some goofball shows up at any of these sites, making outrageous claims....ad I am not talking about opinions, I am talking about mathematically impossible shit, like this, or ridiculous martingale claims, or saying they made a million dollars playing negative EV video poker (just good variance), or that they saw 18 y.o.'s in a row. When someone, anyone makes these kind of twilight zone, mathematically impossible claims, legitimate members of the AP community, MUST be allowed to call them out and set the record straight.

Norm not only decided not to allow that and protect the fraud, but then trolled me to other sites and demanded other site owners silence me from disputing these claims. Yes, RS....that is a con! It's NOT a matter of opinion. It was an agenda to protect false claims.

Now I don't even care about any of this anymore. I really don't. BUT, I have a promise to keep.

[MisterV]

The thing is that when some goofball shows up at any of these sites, making outrageous claims....ad I am not talking about opinions, I am talking about mathematically impossible shit, like this, or ridiculous martingale claims, or saying they made a million dollars playing negative EV video poker (just good variance), or that they saw 18 y.o.'s in a row. When someone, anyone makes these kind of twilight zone, mathematically impossible claims, legitimate members of the AP community, MUST be allowed to call them out and set the record straight.

You need not be an AP to debunk a bullshit artist.

[Bill Yung]

Except for the case of AP bullshit. Then, you have a "mind fuck".

[mickeycrimm]

Except for the case of AP bullshit. Then, you have a "mind fuck".

How's life treating you, onehitblunder?

[kewlJ]

You need not be an AP to debunk a bullshit artist.

Good point MisterV. But every site I have been on has some 'math guys' and AP's that most members know that these folks know what they are talking about by their posts over time. The math guys need not be full-time AP's. Often they are not. Often they have a fulltime career but AP on the side as a hobby. (I would argue that might be the smart way to go )

BUT these math guys and AP's MUST be allowed to debunk these bullshit claims. Not just allowed, but I feel like it is the responsibility of such members to do so. It is a self policing of the community against false, phony, bullshit claims. And it is nothing personal. In my own case, I have nothing personal against the guy that was making these bullshit misleading claims that led to all this. I never met him. I just want him to stop making mathematically impossible claims that are misleading other players.

[jbjb]

Oddly, it's in your best interest to have your potential competition believe in such bullshit claims.