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Thread: The WoV Thread

  1. #1021
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

    Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.
    I'm not sure what you're saying, and which machines you're referring to. I don't know on slots (I'm guessing your reply refers to slots and not vp because you mentioned a "designed hold"), but on the vp machines there's a page on the menu that brings up "coin in" (say 3,567,418) and "coin out" (say 3,194,202). These are actual numbers converted to the machine's lowest denomination.

    This is what I was told at South Point anyway. Seems to make sense.
    A typical penny slot will have five betting levels. If it's 60 cents, $1.20, $1.80, $2.40, $3, then when you make a 60 cent bet the coin-in meter will click up 60 pennies. If you make a $1.20 bet it will click up 120 pennies, etc.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  2. #1022
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    The document that MisterV posted above explains it. The figures for coin in and coin out do not represent the hold of the machine. The key thing is coin in and coin out are short term, and also you don't know when the coin in meters are reset. It is very frustrating to see this issue come up again and again.
    I've seen some machines that have the theoretical payback and the actual payback right next to each other. The actual payback was always very close to the theoretical payback.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 04-09-2018 at 03:59 AM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #1023
    In the old days the accounting department would send a couple of people out on the floor to record the coin-in/coin-out meters every few days. One person would recite the numbers and the other person would record them. On some machines they had to open them up to get the numbers. But on other machines, where the meters were in the top of the machine, they had scraped just enough paint off the front screen to where they could read the meters without having to open up the machine. I first noticed them doing this at the Cal Neva/Reno so I looked for it everywhere I went.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #1024
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    The coin in meters have been discussed before on this forum and other forums and in articles. They have nothing to do with the hold of any machine. Never have they had anything to do with the hold or figuring the hold. They are strictly to measure what they say -- coin in and coin out -- which may not necessarily come close to the designed hold of the machine.

    Once again CALL the friendly staff at the Nevada Gaming Commission and ask them. You do not need to be a member of the press to call and ask any question.
    I'm not sure what you're saying, and which machines you're referring to. I don't know on slots (I'm guessing your reply refers to slots and not vp because you mentioned a "designed hold"), but on the vp machines there's a page on the menu that brings up "coin in" (say 3,567,418) and "coin out" (say 3,194,202). These are actual numbers converted to the machine's lowest denomination.

    This is what I was told at South Point anyway. Seems to make sense.
    A typical penny slot will have five betting levels. If it's 60 cents, $1.20, $1.80, $2.40, $3, then when you make a 60 cent bet the coin-in meter will click up 60 pennies. If you make a $1.20 bet it will click up 120 pennies, etc.
    We finally agree on something....besides Hillary.

    I'm not agreeing with what Alan seems to be saying but it might be because I'm not understanding him. When there's a page showing coin in & coin out on the menu inside the VP machine, a simple calculation does indeed provide the actual hold of the machine. This, and what I said above, is exactly what I was told at SP.

    This also would corroborate how the analyses were done after the FPDW etc. 25c/50c/$1 I got put into Wynn around 2005 were removed. I was there when they were recording coin in & coin out, and that's what they used for their analysis of the overall profit they made (aka, hold)--which I wrote an article about in GT that was first approved by Wynn mgmt.

    That was 13 years ago, but the menu on those machines looked exactly the same as the menu I saw on the machine I assaulted at SP.

  5. #1025
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

    LOL
    All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

    A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.
    Last edited by Bill Yung; 04-09-2018 at 10:08 AM.
    78255585899=317*13723*17989=(310+7)*[(13730-7)*(100*100+7979+10)]-->LOVE avatar@137_371_179_791, or 137_371_17[3^2]_7[3^2]1, 1=V-->Ace, low. 78255585899-->99858555287=(99858555288-1)=[-1+(72*2227)*(722777-100000)]={-1+(72*2227)*[(2000+700777+20000)-100000]}-->1_722_227_277_772_1. 7×8×2×5×5×5×8×5×8×9×9=362880000=(1000000000-6√97020000-100000)-->169_721. (7/8×2/5×5/5×8/5×8/9×9)={[(-.1+.9)]^2×(6+1)}-->1961=√4*2.24; (1/7×8/2×5/5×5/8×5/8×9/9)={1/[7×(-.2+1)^2]}-->1721=[(10*10/4)/(√4+110)].

  6. #1026
    Originally Posted by Bill Yung View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

    LOL
    All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

    A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

    In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.

  7. #1027
    I have never understood this enmity to the as you say "so-called AP's". Is it that hard to believe that there are people that are capable of doing these things. I agree that for the most part none of them have described any of their advantage plays, but at least MC and Monet, and even Kewl have given some degree of information. I believe that if you put the thought and time into doing anything, you can probably do it, or at least do it better than those that don't put the time and thought into it.

    Of course, these same AP's would give me hell about dice control, but so be it.

    Maybe this comes as a surprise from a Singer/Alan supporter, but I find it harder to believe that it can't be done than that it can. I'm not sure that most of those claiming to do it aren't full of shit, but that's a different story.

  8. #1028
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bill Yung View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Come on Bill, give Mickey a break. Everyone knows there's a difference between describing your plays on a forum and actually showing them hit on a TV show.

    LOL
    All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

    A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

    In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.
    Forget that. Just get a cage match, no disqualification, for MC and Rob Singer.

  9. #1029
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bill Yung View Post
    All we seem to get from him and the other so-called AP's is, as he put it, more crocheting. They want to show us the front end, but not the back end of things, where things are connected, and, supposedly, that easy profit is quickly made. But why don't they show us a bit of the front that comes together with a bit of the back?

    A television show would get all of that out to a different audience than can be found at the internet gambling message boards. You would have to think that the latter would be their last choice to disclose any specific viable gambling information. And that if next to no one is interested in the latter - since we are down to a few idiotic, make-believe posters like DarkOz there - even fewer television viewers in their living rooms would actually contemplate the "AP" life. I guess the so-called AP's here and there think they are some sort of experts while they post up obviously crappy excuses and lives, whereas, people with real lives from the real world continue to demonstrate no need or want to prove, identify, or talk at length about, anything/one.

    In the days ahead, I'll be trying to pitch two different ideas for television shows. Both reality shows. One would involve a team of six different gambling specialists and their day-to-day battles in Las Vegas.
    Forget that. Just get a cage match, no disqualification, for MC and Rob Singer.
    Ha! Wouldn't be fair to MC. I'm a little older but I'm in good shape compared to him being in fast-food shape, and my consumption of alcohol is based on what I've read is advantageous in medical journals, whereas his is based on closing times. He also has no training and I have not forgotten mine. However, since he has nothing to lose and I have a boatload of it, you never know.....

    My doubts about these AP's is mostly based on the fact that I was unable to be successful with the grinding away aspect, but when I combined the optimal play part with several important but complex tweaks as well as realizing that each session is in and of itself only, having nothing to do with any that have come before or that have yet to occur, I succeeded.

    I do accept that there are some who profit from AP in whatever form they choose to call it, but it's also simple to deduce who's BSing and how deeply the go (such as kewlj).

  10. #1030
    Had an interesting conversation on the phone today with a gaming enforcement agent.

    First, I called the NGC explaining my request for direction to regulations on slot machine hold information. She transferred me to enforcement and I was contacted with a very kind gentleman who appeared in no hurry to blow me off the phone. In fact, I explained quickly the AP claims on forums and how I was usually a doubtful naysayer. He laughed and seemed engaged in my conversation.

    I asked him about the hold on slot machines and if a slot attendant could while inside a machine expose that information on the screen. The answer was yes. He said there are all different types of machines and some may have that access while plenty also won’t while scrolling through different tabs by a slot attendant. Changing the preset hold is not possible. That requires a different type of access into the machine.

    I than asked him about the claims of AP’s beating slot machines out right. He said there are many cases where new machines come out and even the manufacturers weren’t aware of some winning glitch accidently created. They are always aware of this possibility and will keep close eyes on the performance of new machines for quite awhile and will in most all cases correct the glitch.

    I asked about knowing when to play must hit jackpot machines. He said it’s not that hard to figure out when it would be an advantage to play those type machines, but you still need luck. He explained how you’ll see AP teams come and try to take a bank of jackpot machines, but they also need luck. He said he saw cases where 8 team players were banging away and one of the two regulars ending up hitting it.

    I asked about making enough money beating machines to make a living off of it. He laughed and said what type of living are we talking about? I responded with a respectable one, you know, house, car, college tuition, retirement, health care, vacations etc. He laughed again and said of course anything is possible. He said those stories are like fishing stories. Every once in awhile someone does catch the big one. The ability to pull that off is not an enforcement concern.

    He then volunteered more conversation, saying casino offerings to attract customers create many issues. I asked for details, and all he said was the issues were caused by the casinos marketing department not the machines. In several cases enforcement gets called in. He said nothing about player cards and I certainly didn’t either.

    He went on to say AP exists and all casinos are aware of it. His department doesn’t usually get involved unless their contacted by the casinos or players and cheating is suspected.

    That was pretty much it from what I remember. We actually threw the bull for a little while. I was impressed when he brought up the AP teams, which I guess means they see it happening and don’t care.

    edit to add: We talked about the Phil Ivey baccarat move, and his response was shame on the casinos.

  11. #1031
    Good info.

    What this confirms about how casinos view AP's with what I've said and have written about for years, is that casinos indeed are aware of the AP's. This in turn tells me they have no qualms about offering up all those lucrative sounding/theoretically "+EV" promotions when they know the AP's will jump all over them with as much cash as they can come up with, and play them for as long as they appear to be positive.

    The question of course is, while most AP's don't talk publicly about what they do where and how they do, people like Dancer regularly do--and he toots in his articles about how he makes tons of money off of the casinos. So....is this really believable? Can he really be hammering them into the ground while he rapes their slot clubs and giveaway depts., and all they do is look the other way while they keep on inviting him in to do even more damage?

    When simple common sense takes over, the answer is of course, simple.

  12. #1032
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    I have never understood this enmity to the as you say "so-called AP's". Is it that hard to believe that there are people that are capable of doing these things. I agree that for the most part none of them have described any of their advantage plays, but at least MC and Monet, and even Kewl have given some degree of information. I believe that if you put the thought and time into doing anything, you can probably do it, or at least do it better than those that don't put the time and thought into it.

    Of course, these same AP's would give me hell about dice control, but so be it.

    Maybe this comes as a surprise from a Singer/Alan supporter, but I find it harder to believe that it can't be done than that it can. I'm not sure that most of those claiming to do it aren't full of shit, but that's a different story.
    Actually your wrong about me giving you strife over dice control. I think it's possible and must be something to it. The problem is the back wall and I think the tables have something to do with it. On the older tables that are flat, heavy slate I've seen players basically stop the dice short of the wall. On the tables with more cushion those dice bounce all over the place. I've been on tables that allow a few short rolls but they don't like those rolls that don't hit the back wall and if you don't comply they won't let you shoot so it's obvious the Casino is worried about something.

    I used to mess about at Casino Royale years ago and they would let me slide the dice but I have no skill. I know for a fact that skilled shooters can slide the dice making numbers stick so why can't someone control the dice? I think they can but when they make you hit the wall and the dice bounce all over the place it's not gonna be controlled.

    So for me I know the dice can be controlled but to be able to control them in real world situations and make millions of dollars is going to be virtually impossible. Better to get on a crew with employees involved and just steal or cheat to win the money IMO that is.

    Basically it doesn't matter but I just wanted to say I wouldn't give you much strife over dice control. If your really able to control the dice and beat a game that is -EV that's impressive but as with anything in the Casino how long can you survive? They hawk the pit like crazy. If your able to control dice and always win your gonna get thrown out or at least told your not allowed to play dice anymore. After living in Vegas for 20 years I've noticed the Casino doesn't like or allow winners to keep playing. You can AP and stay under the radar but it's much harder to do it at black jack or dice or the pit in general. These days it's getting harder in the machine world as well. Honestly it's drying up and the doors are closing in the Casino. This doesn't mean you can't do it... I'm just saying it's far more difficult compared to years past.

  13. #1033
    You are one of very few here who will even acknowledge the possibility. I did encounter most of the problems which you have mentioned, including being barred from throwing. But the reason I quit was horses, bouncy tables, age, becoming too much strain on me to travel and maintain my form, and other business interests that were booming (in that order).

    Now I play once or twice a year in Vegas or AC and pretty much just throw the dice like most of the regulars (I hate the term ploppies) and hope we get a lucky roll.

  14. #1034
    For sure, all the crowing about the so-called AP stuff here and there for the last decade far outstrips what is actually happening. People who have won nobel prizes have said far, far less in a fraction of the time. So, it comes down to a few persons who are trying to psychologically "find themselves" in a murky world. Sure, anyone could find some minute edge on slots or something, and players' cards, and run the heck out of it. But there is more to life than survival or waiting for a "scrap of uneaten burger" to hit the ground.
    78255585899=317*13723*17989=(310+7)*[(13730-7)*(100*100+7979+10)]-->LOVE avatar@137_371_179_791, or 137_371_17[3^2]_7[3^2]1, 1=V-->Ace, low. 78255585899-->99858555287=(99858555288-1)=[-1+(72*2227)*(722777-100000)]={-1+(72*2227)*[(2000+700777+20000)-100000]}-->1_722_227_277_772_1. 7×8×2×5×5×5×8×5×8×9×9=362880000=(1000000000-6√97020000-100000)-->169_721. (7/8×2/5×5/5×8/5×8/9×9)={[(-.1+.9)]^2×(6+1)}-->1961=√4*2.24; (1/7×8/2×5/5×5/8×5/8×9/9)={1/[7×(-.2+1)^2]}-->1721=[(10*10/4)/(√4+110)].

  15. #1035
    Yes there is definitely more to life. But there is some degree of allure to the not working and answering only to yourself aspect of what MC and Monet describe.

    I have gone in and out of the suit and tie world and am always happier outside of it. However, it is pretty easy money. And over the last 10 years I scrubbed the suit and tie other than when in court. If someone doesn't like it they can get a "fancier" lawyer.

  16. #1036
    I'll give you some grief over the DI thing regnis

    Right off the bat Frank Scoblete sells it so it has to be impossible. If it were real and attainable, he and all the other shysters would simply use it for profiting in the casinos and not advertise and sell classes for it.

    I still don't understand how there can be any "control" or "influence" of any kind, with all those things sticking out of the back wall where your dice are required to hit. And please don't tell me that a "close guess" is good enuf. We were treated to that kind of BS by kew after his two table counting claim was labeled an epic fail and pure nonsense as soon as he regurgitated that the 2nd table count need not be accurate.

  17. #1037
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I'll give you some grief over the DI thing regnis

    Right off the bat Frank Scoblete sells it so it has to be impossible. If it were real and attainable, he and all the other shysters would simply use it for profiting in the casinos and not advertise and sell classes for it.

    I still don't understand how there can be any "control" or "influence" of any kind, with all those things sticking out of the back wall where your dice are required to hit. And please don't tell me that a "close guess" is good enuf. We were treated to that kind of BS by kew after his two table counting claim was labeled an epic fail and pure nonsense as soon as he regurgitated that the 2nd table count need not be accurate.

    There was no "epic fail." It is really, really lame to say "was proven this" or "was labeled that" when the person doing the labeling or saying or allegedly proving is the author himself. Really lame.

    I don't know kewlJ from Adam. I have no idea if he is who he says or supports himself playing blackjack. But I can tell you that counting two tables is possible.

    I measured the distances myself and plopped my butt in various middle seats at the Flamingo, and Harrah's, and elsewhere, and I can see the cards with my lousy eyes well enough to tell what they are, given I have an angle of view. For those tables at longer distances, I wouldn't recommend it, but even I can tell "pips from paint." Not my jargon, because I know nothing. So anyway, the cards can be counted unless obstructed.

    Now can someone count two games simultaneously? Not unless they've counted before. That's about the only restriction.

    So why lie about the clarity of cards at distances at the Flamingo, or Harrah's, or about the difficulty of counting two decks simultaneously? Who knows? Ask Argentino.

    If anybody is interested, walk into any of these casinos with a tape measure, a deck of cards, sit at tables, and figure out at what distance you can identify the cards. Easy enough to get to truth of the matter. My eyes are pretty bad. If I can do it, clarity is not an issue. Counting is not an issue. Obstruction of two particular seats is the only issue.

    I'll do it again this week at other casinos. It's real tough to actually sit at a table, measure the distance, and figure out if you can see cards. Takes all of 10 minutes.

    There is an interesting variance in lighting, so that plays into clarity occasionally. I don't have a light meter, so I can't report on that. Maybe Argentino can do some leg work and use his engineering background to report on the lighting.

  18. #1038
    Once again the real point is how long can you survive in the Casino without being asked to leave, no mailed, back roomed, or just not welcome etc. etc.

    About 7 years ago I seen a guy run up his money in black jack at the Plaza. He was up about 87k total. My host at the time told me they had a meeting with management and my host and tried to figure out if he was cheating or if they should allow him to keep playing. My host and some others told the powers that be it would be best to allow him to keep playing since he wasn't cheating or counting or moving his bets. He was just on a run playing a negative game.

    Did management listen... no! They decided to just bar him from black jack and he lost his money over at the nugget a few days latter.

    My point is Vegas doesn't like it when you win no matter how you win and if you win too much you will be asked to leave. So win but show losses and try to not bring attention to yourself. As always leave when you sense heat and stay within threasholds to avoid detection.

  19. #1039
    Originally Posted by monet View Post
    My point is Vegas doesn't like it when you win no matter how you win and if you win too much you will be asked to leave. So win but show losses and try to not bring attention to yourself. As always leave when you sense heat and stay within threasholds to avoid detection.
    Imagine trying to collect a handful of 100k wins (even over a long period of time) from illegal banking transactions from USA off shore unregulated (for the USA players) gambling sites.

  20. #1040
    Two things about DI:

    Tables are made with a plywood "floor" and there is no slate, monet. This is not pool. The bounce is impacted by what is on top of the plywood. Casinos that add a new layout on top of an old layout will have very bouncey tables. Casinos that strip off old layouts will have tables that are not bouncey.

    Beware Caesars. Not only do they put new layouts on top of old and have multiple layers, they use a new speed cloth that sends the dice flying.

    Second: DIs don't hit the alligator bumps. Their dice hit the back wall UNDER the first row of bumps.

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