Dice Switching (WoV)

[monet]

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb...ce/#post624547

I decided to "steal" this thread from WoV because it is along the same lines we are discussing in the WoV thread on this forum. I read RS's post and I wanted to give him a (Thank You) for it! Since RS is a member here as well, I am certain he will read this. Many times in my mind I think RS is a little younger than myself and we don't exactly agree on many subjects. For instance I don't talk to Siri. I don't do hashtags. I don't think we converse in the same manner. I don't scout as well and find all the 10% or better winners that he does. However, I do believe that we make our living doing very similar moves inside of Casinos and we both live in the Vegas area. Here is a copy of what he posted...

Procedures to prevent it (dice switching) are in place anywhere I've seen craps (AFAIK). That isn't to say it's super effective. You throw one die off the table, have a confederate pick it up and hand in a different die. Easy. I can't imagine getting a die with print and the # and all that stuff would be difficult either. And of course, the pit boss who checks the die that was thrown off the table....what's he gonna do? He's gonna spin it a time or two between his thumb & index finger, see if the number is the same (oftentimes they don't even know what the number should be)....and really, they aren't expecting to get a fake die turned in...as they've probably checked a die thousands of times and never once did anything other than put it back into play. I've never seen a die removed from a table because there was anything wrong with it.

And countless other ways to get a die on the table. No box person, check. Chatty stickman who doesn't watch the dice, check. Annoyed/bothered/fill-in-the-blank base dealer, check. Throw in a distraction or two (full out brawl starting out in the aisle, guy dropping his beer on the layout, a real loud scream of excitement/winning from another table, you name it).


I'd imagine dice-switching occurs much more frequently than what most of us think (most of us probably think it happens once in a blue moon).


Other members on WoV, like the general public, believe that things like this do not happen anymore because we have become more advanced in technology. I would disagree with these members and completely agree with RS. These members are of the same mindset that think Bank Robberies or Casino Heists are a thing of the past. I know that all one has to do is search around on the line to figure out that these are common every day events not only in Vegas but around the world.

Another good example would be to think that "past posting" is a thing of the past which it certainly is not. Does one really believe that "Smash and Grab" doesn't happen anymore because of all the surveillance or how about just good old fashioned Grab all the Chips and Run for the Door?

[LarryS]

Is changing a die or dice considered "an AP move"

[monet]

Is changing a die or dice considered "an AP move"

I would have to say this is subjective. AP=Advantage Player or Advantage Play. However it is clear that one individual who considers themselves an AP would explain that it is cheating and not an AP Move while another AP, such as myself, believes that no matter how you obtain the advantage it is an AP Move. Legal or Illegal is irrelevant. Only the edge matters to someone like myself. Do I have the advantage when making the bet or does the Casino have the advantage?

Interesting note about the Wizard of Odds. If you read over on WoV about the No Safety Bet on the new No Safety Bet Super Bowl thread he admits that in 2007 he was making so much money that he didn't know what to do with it and made bets that had an advantage but not enough time to grind out that advantage. How is it possible to be the Wizard of Odds and make so much money you do not know what to do with it? I find it very interesting for a person who lives by the motto...

It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

It appears that even someone as highly educated and self disciplined such as the Wiz can get caught up in the Fever of making over sized, risky wagers.

[MaxPen]

How much of an advantage do you have in prison?

That being said many illegal things are able to be accomplished with infitessimally small chances of prison. Enough that there is no reason to put thought into hustles that could put oneself behind bars. You can shoplift, card fraud, etc. with absolutely no chance of doing time.

[monet]

How much of an advantage do you have in prison?

That being said many illegal things are able to be accomplished with infitessimally small chances of prison. Enough that there is no reason to put thought into hustles that could put oneself behind bars. You can shoplift, card fraud, etc. with absolutely no chance of doing time.

You have a point. I mean you can explain how if your in other countries and decide to make illegal moves you can lose your hands or life as well. My point was about having the advantage or not having the advantage from a mathematical standpoint. I think it is very clear that individuals who decide to make illegal moves to get advantages have to be completely sharper compared to an AP who is not taking any illegal chances. Always remember the Police can miss many times over but a Thief can only miss once.

Shoplifting and Credit Fraud are by far the easiest illegal advantage moves in my opinion in the good old U.S. of A. I personally had a local store constantly hound me by mail about how they will give me 10k in credit. After months and months of throwing these letters in the mail I had enough and went into the place. They made me sign some contracts with some amazing interest. 27% if I remember correctly but that didn't matter because I never planned on making any payments. It turns out that they sell defective merchandise and if you bring it home and do not jump through many hoops within 24 hours you basically get stuck with it. It doesn't matter, everything that I bought and had delivered worked out just fine. However a few devices were completely not working and I could not exchange them. No worries, just head over to your local Best Buy and purchase the same product. Later that evening go back with the same box but defective product in that box. Ask for your money back and show them your receipt. Pretty simple. Always deal in Cash on these adventures. Also when you do decide to do something like this make sure your credit is already destroyed to the point of not caring and since America is built on not paying your debt they don't have a debtors prison. As MaxPen stated... no chance of any prison or problems in general.

How much of an advantage do you have in prison?

I would have to say this depends on how much time one is going to do. It is clear that some outlaws come out of prison smarter and better connected compared to when they went in. I have heard stories that it can be considered a University for the Criminal. I am not saying that I would want to go inside to get this education. I think that is clear since I have never gone and I consider myself a two bit hustler that doesn't risk prison for larger gains. This would also depend on how young a person was. Perhaps if I was in my early twenties it wouldn't of been so difficult but in no way shape or form could I handle 30 days in prison let alone 2 to 5 years at my current age/health/status in life.

Take for instance the old timers who drilled their way into Hatton Garden. Long time Ex-Cons and Criminals. Unfortunately they spent too much time on the internet just like myself. Sometimes, I get the questions about why I do this or say that. I tell them... they know where I'm at... I'm not hiding... come and get me cockroaches!

[RS__]

Switching dice, IMO, although would be an advantage, I wouldn't consider it advantage play, but cheating. Cheating is an advantage, but wouldn't call it AP.


I think a lot of people don't understand how poorly casinos are actually run. Boothlings never know what the fuck is going on with a promotion, always getting different answers, they don't know how shit works. So many dealers are just completely retarded, it's ridiculous. In any other job (I'd imagine) they'd be fired for being incompetent. Floor people and pit bosses generally don't know the rules, laws, regulations, etc. and just make shit up as they go along -- from what to do if a dealer makes a mistake (doesn't give a BJ player a card), makes a payout mistake, hits a hard 17+, etc., to how match play coupons work and where they can be bet and their intricacies (what happens to MP if I surrender? double down? split?), the table max on different games like craps (I once told a pit boss I could bet over table max, he was unsure of it, but let me do it, he then got another call from surveillance telling me not to bet over the max, I told him it was okay, and he was like OK cool and left me alone, after third call from surveillance to PB, I was shut down on betting well over table max). People at the cage often times don't know how to process a front money marker and fuck it all up. Dealers don't know proper payouts on different bets nor the procedure in how to deal (card handling as well as how to and the order of taking, paying, pushing bets). Some pit bosses literally think they (personally or the casino in general) can do whatever the hell they want, like refuse to cash someone out for no reason. Many don't understand why procedures are put into place, pit bosses who think counting a 6-deck shoe is impossible, bosses who think anyone changing their bet is counting, some think counting is cheating and others think it just lowers the house edge, close to none understand what a house edge is nor how it works (ie: $100 @ 2% = $2 in EV).

Conservatively speaking, I'd say 25%+ of personnel in a casino are just flat out incompetent, and probably about 50% are in the "well you're pretty bad at your job, but so is everyone else, so I guess you're fine?" category.

Hell, we had one guy who'd show up to work every day pretty drunk. One day he showed up completely hammered out of his mind, trip and fell, went to hospital, and had 0.2% BAC, which was at least a few hours into his shift and several hours after he would have left to go to work from home. No one even noticed he was drunk that day....or any day, really, but after the fact it made sense he was always drunk.

[monet]

I think a lot of people don't understand how poorly casinos are actually run. Boothlings never know what the fuck is going on with a promotion, always getting different answers, they don't know how shit works. So many dealers are just completely retarded, it's ridiculous. In any other job (I'd imagine) they'd be fired for being incompetent. Floor people and pit bosses generally don't know the rules, laws, regulations, etc. and just make shit up as they go along --

Preach On Brother RS!!

Hard to refute anything in that post even if one disagrees with what AP is, that really isn't the point.

What machine player hasn't been on some promotion playing and seen the "deer in headlights" look when you start asking a few simple questions about said promotion.
I chalk it up to "I just work here buddy." The Casino is filled with workers who either busted out as gamblers or employees who have never been a part of gambling and have no clue about it but they know it is an easy living and one can make a good living in the Casino with no education. Next you have the Asian Employees (I can get on the Asians because my wife is Cantonese). Most of these employees are clueless as well but the thing about them is that they are some of the most loyal employees never missing days and never no call no showing.

I myself have not only witnessed poker dealers walking around with water or soda bottles filled with vodka but I have actually dealt in the box with an open 9/10 seat and placed my mixed drink in it drinking it in-between action or hands. It is pretty clear that most people on these gambling forums that I have been a part of for about 2 years have no idea what is really going on in the Casino. I did say Most not ALL.

[LarryS]

monet and I agreed on the issue that Aps while doing their job adds nothing to society. Thats pretty evident.

However by taking out credit cards and not paying, they are hurting society.....something I never accused Aps of doing. They are helping to jack up the cost of interest rates for those who pay, and they are helping to jack up the price of merchandise....and yes they are helping to get people to lose jobs.

when a corporations profits go down..they do 2 things basically....they recoupe the loss by raising prices on goods and lending, and cutting back payroll through cut backs , reduction of benefits, and lower yearly raises.

So the Aps and other folks that brag that they know how to get credit cards and figure out a way not to pay, or negotiate pennies on the dollar payback settlements...get no applause from me. In fact I find them to be lower than beggars on the street.

[monet]

So the Aps and other folks that brag that they know how to get credit cards and figure out a way not to pay, or negotiate pennies on the dollar payback settlements...get no applause from me. In fact I find them to be lower than beggars on the street.

This is one major difference between us. I don't look up or down on individuals. I do believe the individual is either on one side of the tracks or the other. For myself I have admitted to being on the wrong side continually doing evil. Pond scum if you will. This doesn't mean the guy doing good and helping society but who cheats on his taxes or wife is a better person because he does more good than bad or because he isn't hurting anyone directly. This person is no better than the pan handlers you seem to have a beef with. I like your thinking though. Credit card companies and bankers good... people who abuse credit card companies and banks bad.

[LarryS]

Now I know that I ran into RETAIL APS in my career .

For example: 30 years ago JCpenny owned a chain of pharmacies called Thrift Drug. JCP also has of course department stores and a very well known catalogue business,
Some pharmacies(including where i worked) had a catalogue dept. Anf JCP had a very liberal no questions asked return policy.

So the retail Aps that knew how to work the system, would come in at the begining of summer, and order bathing suits via catalogue for themselves and their kids. Then as the summer started to come to a close..they would bring back the bathing suits with some defect..." I only washed it once and look..it fell apart"
This happened with all typesof clothing, Boys pants that the kid eventually tore up got returned,,,dresses that women probably wore once for a wedding and then returned. Great retail AP moves. I even had a guy buy a humidifier i the store, bring it home...put in his old broken humidifier. and glue the box flaps shut...the box is pristine returned for refund. Another retail AP move.

All this goes on across the country...and is simply a cost that is made up via increased pricing, increased finance charges, and decrease payroll.

[RS__]

What's this have to do with dice switching, larrys?

[LarryS]

It was suggested that dice switching was an AP move, because cheating or no cheating doesnt matter..its the advantage that counts...its the end result and not how you got there.. And an AP suggested that credit card fraud if done correctly could be acceptably do-able without alot of punishment.

And I suggested that in retail I ran onto people who thought similarly....that cheating was ok, especially if the downside was minimal if caught.

so if you are the kind of person that needs me to connect the dots for you....I am certainly happy to do so,

If you dont understand things in the future....feel free to ask me.

I am a "professional" dot connector.

[Bill Yung]

I am a "professional" dot connector.

"Foucault argues that the contemporary study of the history of ideas, although it targets moments of transition between historical worldviews, ultimately depends on continuities that break down under close inspection. The history of ideas marks points of discontinuity between broadly defined modes of knowledge, but the assumption that those modes exist as wholes fails to do justice to the complexities of discourse. Foucault argues that "discourses" emerge and transform not according to a developing series of unarticulated, common worldviews, but according to a vast and complex set of discursive and institutional relationships, which are defined as much by breaks and ruptures as by unified themes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ar...y_of_Knowledge

Maybe it's not about connecting the dots? And we can tell how old a specimen is by his or her ideas, and how fast those fall apart.

[LarryS]

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...0&action=click

[RS__]

It was suggested that dice switching was an AP move, because cheating or no cheating doesnt matter..its the advantage that counts...its the end result and not how you got there.. And an AP suggested that credit card fraud if done correctly could be acceptably do-able without alot of punishment.

And I suggested that in retail I ran onto people who thought similarly....that cheating was ok, especially if the downside was minimal if caught.

so if you are the kind of person that needs me to connect the dots for you....I am certainly happy to do so,

If you dont understand things in the future....feel free to ask me.

I am a "professional" dot connector.

You suggested dice switching may be an AP move, brought up the credit card stuff out of thin air, then went on a huge tangent about "retail store APs" or whatever the hell you're pissed off about.

[LarryS]

Shoplifting and Credit Fraud are by far the easiest illegal advantage moves in my opinion in the good old U.S. of A. as per NOT ME

I can connect the dots for you....but I cannot make you retain and comprehend

and I definately cannot make you see.

read post number 5 and tell us all how I brought up credit card fraud

[monet]

MaxPen brought it up actually but I elaborated on it. You may want to read post 4 before 5 just to be able to connect a little better.

Does William Yung really converse like this in real life like these posts of his? They just seem like someone else's words?

[dannyj]

Sounds like onehitwonder.

[LarryS]

sounds like Irwin Corey,reincarnated

[Bill Yung]

Sounds like an echo in here.