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Thread: "Cheats, Thieves, and Advantage Players"

  1. #1
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    It's a line from one of the sessions advertised as part of the "World Game Protection Conference" that's currently advertising on the LVA site. The conference, scheduled for March, bizarrely features active shooter protocols along with how to stop advantage players exploiting free play. It is truly an Alice in Wonderland hodgepodge.

    May I suggest some of you email LVA and ask them to castrate themselves for accepting this kind of advertising? We all need to learn how to defend ourselves from active shooters and advantage players in a single afternoon. What could be more (idiotically) American?

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    It's my guess that Bob Dancer will be one of the speakers at this conference. David Sklansky might be one too. They both work both sides of the fence. Dancer will see it as a way to get consulting contracts with casinos.
    The Undeniable Truth About Living in Cowshit County by Rob Singer

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    What, no session on how to protect the casino from the hordes of predatory D.I.'s?

    Heck, mainstream retailer Amazon is selling a book called "Craps Underground: The Inside Story of How Dice Controllers are Winning Millions from the Casinos!'"

    Gosh, you'd think they'd devote some time to this looming threat to their bottom line.
    What, Me Worry?

  4. #4
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    the only danger to their bottom line from setting dice is the time factor. Time is money. And inexperienced dice setters that do it for DI purposes or for superstition purposes and take their time,...does eat into the bottom line.

  5. #5
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    The casino industry's obsession with game protection is kind of humorous because of their extremes levels of paranoia. It today's world with so many new games being introduced at such a rapid pace, there is some need for some game protection. Smart AP's and math guys figure out how to exploit these games faster than they are introduced.

    But let's take a step back just a few years (and continuing even today), to the industry's obsession with card counters. Card counters accounted for almost nothing against the casino bottom line. Low and mid level players literally nothing. Many underfunded or with holes in their game or discipline issue aren't playing the +EV game they (and the casinos think), some aren't playing +EV at all. Any slight threat came from well financed high limit players and teams. Focusing on anything other than these high limit players and teams was asinine, as smart casino people like Bill Zender recognized years ago.

    And yet the casino industry has waged war on low and mid level counters that are no threat for decades. They literally spend dollars to save a penny. And the really funny part is the casino industry is being "played" by all these so called expert gaming consultants and gaming consultant companies that have popped up in the last decade, many of them former (or failed) AP's themselves. You could even say this in itself has been an AP play, taking advantage of the casino industry's obsessions and paranoia to extract ten's or hundred times what you are "saving" them. It really is funny shit!

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    From a corporate perspective, this type of view is pervasive .
    they veiw counters as people who steal from them, whether its 10 dollars or 100k.

    In the retail world, there are 2 types of customer theft n a store....the nickle and dime person who steals a candy bar, and the team that comes in an wipes out all the razor blades and Nyquil.

    But in many retailers they will prosecute the dude that steals a pack of gum just as vigorously, because although they dont want the big teams wiping out entire sections of merchandise....they also dont want to be nickle and dimed out of business either. So they prosecute both...as they view both as a CANCER.

    So the casinos have the same situation. They feel counters are thieves. And they dont want the big hits, AND they dont want to be nickle and dimed. So they go after both.

    whether counters are "thives" is another thread. I am just expressing how corporations look at things. Once they identify dishonest people in their minds...they go after them big or small.

    Its a corporate way of life in casinos and in the rest of the corporate world.

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    Here's the thing Larry and I am going to borrow your retail analogy.

    Retail store XYZ in tracking of inventory, identifies that they are losing $100 a month due to theft. So they hire a security guard at $500 per week ($2000 a month), PLUS benefits AND install thousands of dollars in surveillance technology to keep an eye on their employees.

    As time goes on, loss of inventory has been reduces in half to $50 per month, at an ongoing cost of several thousand per month and the geniuses running XYZ store declare the their loss prevention strategy a "success".

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    I thought most casino theft was committed by employees / insiders and not players?

    Speaking of consultants, anyone know what happened to the Wiz and his short-lived consulting gig with Sands six years ago?

    What happened with that?
    What, Me Worry?

  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Here's the thing Larry and I am going to borrow your retail analogy.
    Here is a better analogy, more specific to the casino industry and card counters.

    Casino XZY (under the same corporation as retail store XYZ ) decides that card counters are exploiting their double deck game dealt to 80% to the tune of $6,000/month. So they hire Rid Card Counters Consulting Firm, headed by a former and failed card counter. Rid Card Counters Consulting Firm's solution is to cut the penetration down to 50%, a level unappealing and less profitable to card counters.

    The end result is the estimated loss due to card counters has been reduced to $2000/month. However the more frequent shuffles and increased down time at the tables, has reduced the actual win at the tables by $40,000/month.....10 TIMES the savings! Rid Card Counters Consulting Firm and Casino XYZ celebrate their success.

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    yes most companies go under because of poor internal controls.
    And retail and the casinos have measures in place to monitor the employee end of it,

    However lets say in my example the retail theft went from 100 to 50(which is unrealstically low by 10 fold). Who is not to say that it didnt deter some small timers from joining in and increasing it to 150, then 250, then 300....as word got out that there was either no security, or that the security just slapped you on the wrist.
    And then who is to say that some big shoplifting teams might just get wind of the laxness and come in and do a major sweep of shelves, for thousands.

    Yes there is a cost analysis of what is going on currently, but also what could potentially go on in the future in determining actions or countermeasures.

    Perhaps the feeling is thatif they dont put their foot down on the little guys, then it wont be long before a flood of "big guys" are flooding in. And the "big guys" are more polished in going about their "thieving" business.

    So in your example although that retail store can point to only a 50 dollar savings, they can also point data and stats that in business, if theft is not addressed...it only goes up.and up.

    Heck, there are retail stores in certain neighborhoods that open on day one, and pay a security guard knowing from the jump that if they didnt have one..they will be cleaned out. And they cant point to a black and white savings like you presented because they started on day1 with the countermeasures.

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Speaking of consultants, anyone know what happened to the Wiz and his short-lived consulting gig with Sands six years ago?

    What happened with that?
    He recently posted this about it:
    https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/las-.../9/#post627852

  12. #12
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    I missed that; thanks, Spock.
    What, Me Worry?

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    Doesn't ring true. At the time, he cited non-disclosure, and bore quite a few negative posts. Yeah, sure, downsized from a new job.
    True addicts are incredibly credible.

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    thats true, and it wouldnt have been anything negative toward the company to simply say that they ran out of work for me so we parted ways.

    consulting jobs arent forever....but yet so many stories.

    my guess is that he rubbed someone the wrong way being socially backward as he is,

  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
    my guess is that he rubbed someone the wrong way being socially backward as he is,
    Well, I am not going to take this opportunity to take a shot at Mike. I heard some rumors but don't really know the circumstances.

    I don't draw a line in the sand and take the position that anyone that does some consulting work for a casino is now the enemy, as some AP's do. I never held it against Standford Wong, just as I never did against Mike. I did hold it against Eliot thought. He was a traitor. Circumstances were different and that's all I am going to say about that.

    I think I joined WoV shortly after Mike's consulting 'gig', of which I knew of. I was on two blackjack sites at the time, Wong's BJ21 (I didn't hold consulting against Wong either), and a second site, Norm Wattenberger's Blackjack Forum. So on Norm's site the topic of Mike and WoV came up one day and Norm (Qfit) opined that he would never participate at WoV because of Mike's relationship with Venetian. The terminology he used was that he didn't "trust" Mike.

    I have always found that kind of ironic because of the event that followed several years later when Norm (Qfit) trolled me to WoV, of which true to his word, he had not participated on in over 5 years. He then manipulated and used his "friendship" with Mike to get me banned, because he didn't like my opinion of a member of the community that was misleading players. Norm was one guy in the community that really bad-mouthed Mike, but when he wanted something, cozied up to him, manipulated and used him to silence someone that Norm wanted silenced. This really exemplifies the back-stabbing that has been part of the BJ-AP community since well before my time.

    And here is a funny little extension to this story. In the two years since Norm succeeded in manipulating Mike to ban me, Norm has for the most part returned to his initial position of not participating at WoV. He never was interested in participating there....only using and manipulating Mike to get what he wanted. Qfit frequently goes months without posting until I mention his lack of participation and then he makes a few posts out of spite. (Look for a Qfit post in the coming days )

    So while I am going to refrain from taking a shot at Mike, I will say he seems to be lacking the ability to determine who his friends really are and who was on his side and who was conveniently using and manipulating him.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 02-13-2018 at 11:11 PM.

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    Casinos are still like the mob.

    If you steal $10 from the mob or mafia, they'll do whatever they can to get it back, even if costs them $100k to do it. Sort of an "on principle" kind of thing.

  17. #17
    Mike is a steller individual and Barbara is certainly an exemplarey and ourstanding fair unbiased moderator!! Cant speak the truth, so lets post what will fly. :-)
    Last edited by Glenbaccarat9; 02-14-2018 at 06:13 AM.

  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    It's a line from one of the sessions advertised as part of the "World Game Protection Conference" that's currently advertising on the LVA site. The conference, scheduled for March, bizarrely features active shooter protocols along with how to stop advantage players exploiting free play. It is truly an Alice in Wonderland hodgepodge.

    May I suggest some of you email LVA and ask them to castrate themselves for accepting this kind of advertising? We all need to learn how to defend ourselves from active shooters and advantage players in a single afternoon. What could be more (idiotically) American?
    I think the "stop advantage players exploiting free play" has to do with freeplay sent though the mail. I've never worked major freeplay myself but I know people that do or have. It's basically done by those that have upfront money to lose. They show up unannounced and join the player's club. They don't use the hotel. They'll run a game like $5 Double-Double Bonus, slightly under 99%. They'll run a big wager like 100K. On a $5 denom that's about 4000 hands.

    What they have done is created a sucker's profile. The expected loss with optimal strategy is just slightly more than $1000. Then they wait on the mail. Some marketing departments have gotten completely stupid with players like this. They might send them 4 X $1000 in freeplay every month for six months or more before the offers cease.

    One person I know from vpFREE (he paid me a Montana visit last summer) had been doing this for years in California. He made a lap around the state every couple of weeks running off freeplay. He did say that it was drying up though.
    The Undeniable Truth About Living in Cowshit County by Rob Singer

  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The casino industry's obsession with game protection is kind of humorous because of their extremes levels of paranoia. It today's world with so many new games being introduced at such a rapid pace, there is some need for some game protection. Smart AP's and math guys figure out how to exploit these games faster than they are introduced.

    But let's take a step back just a few years (and continuing even today), to the industry's obsession with card counters. Card counters accounted for almost nothing against the casino bottom line. Low and mid level players literally nothing. Many underfunded or with holes in their game or discipline issue aren't playing the +EV game they (and the casinos think), some aren't playing +EV at all. Any slight threat came from well financed high limit players and teams. Focusing on anything other than these high limit players and teams was asinine, as smart casino people like Bill Zender recognized years ago.

    And yet the casino industry has waged war on low and mid level counters that are no threat for decades. They literally spend dollars to save a penny. And the really funny part is the casino industry is being "played" by all these so called expert gaming consultants and gaming consultant companies that have popped up in the last decade, many of them former (or failed) AP's themselves. You could even say this in itself has been an AP play, taking advantage of the casino industry's obsessions and paranoia to extract ten's or hundred times what you are "saving" them. It really is funny shit!
    The following article is almost spot on to my earlier analogy. The author's conclusion is very similar to my own that these gaming consultants and consultant firms that have sprung up, are basically executing their own advantage play in exploiting the casino industries paranoia.

    https://www.gamblinginsider.com/in-d...-worry-casinos

  20. #20
    A card counter commits a thought crime at the Frontier Casino in 2003.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RtTvK8pl98
    Casino reporter, enjoys blackjack/baccarat card counting to win. Moviemakerjjcasino on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/user/Moviemakerjjcasino/videos and Twitter https://twitter.com/Casino_Examiner

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