it says in the article that the casino knows what he is doing but there is no rules or law against it.
but as we saw in another article. some states find this to be theft and has arrested people.....as a money making ploy by local police departments
it says in the article that the casino knows what he is doing but there is no rules or law against it.
but as we saw in another article. some states find this to be theft and has arrested people.....as a money making ploy by local police departments
Colorado will charge you with petty theft. In Nevada the credit hustling is pervasive so they just run you off. Way to much paperwork involved to arrest every credit hustler. In New Jersey they can only 86 you for 24 hours for credit hustling. In Mississippi the state law is the abandoned credits belong to the public so you can't be charged.Originally Posted by LarryS
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
This thread is awesome. Thank you for sharing Monet!
Small update with the Palms for April 2018. They decided to combine the movie and car wash to Tuesday's only and you can earn one for 300 or both for 600 points.
I know RS and his buddies like Roger Kint don't bother with gas cards but I don't mind them. Perhaps other players on this board like them as well. Thursday's only and you can earn up to 190 per week per players card. If you can find playable reel machines it is far easier to earn them. If you play VP you still can find 16/10 deuces with a .3 players card to get 100%. Factor in your mail and other offers and it isn't as bad as you might think. I have inched my way over 4K a month in free play with the Palms alone so for me it makes sense to hammer. You have to make your own decisions.
I forgot to mention that for the month of April I received two mailers for 250 dollar free bet coupons. One mailer took 4 months to kick in and that player played about 30 mins with a 75 dollar loss on dice. I played about 3 hours total on dice on two separate occasions losing 25 dollars total. We were testing different methods to see if any mail would roll in for pit play. We both flatted 25 dollar bets with Odds usually around 3 to 6 times odds. I don't believe Odds are rated. I found it interesting that for this month we both got the same free bet mail even though coin in has a large gap between the two players cards. My guess is that Stations either sends free bets every 4 months or this is something new they are doing or we just don't play enough in the pit to generate mail. However, if Stations is gonna send 250 or more in free bets every month it might be worth my time to play some black jack on a regular basis to generate the mail. Also they send me free parlay bets for the book but only at the 5 dollar level times 5. That seems horrible for the amount I'm down in the book.
Monet, re: progressive slots, how are you able to tell that they're +EV? I always thought slots were able to be set at different payouts, and they don't advertise on the machine like VP does.
I'll give you two examples currently playable at the Fremont. You can play the 5 dollar (15 dollars per spin) Blazing Sevens machine when the jackpot is around 7600 in my experience. Although I would rather wait for 7900 or higher. You will get many W2s since when you hit 3 red sevens the machine locks up and you get a hand pay of 1500. I know this from years of experience. I can't tell you the exact numbers. The worst run in over ten years on this machine I have been down 13k at one point but on that session I did bounce back up to down 3k and hit the jackpot that was over 8k for a 5k profit. Usually when I play the game bounces around from being down 1500 to 6000 but at times I will get ahead of it or stuck more than the 6k. The way I play this game is when I decided to play I never stop. I may lock up the machine and come back later or put a friend or family member on it but I have never gone more than 8 hours of continuous play without hitting the progressive. Does this mean you couldn't play the game starting at 8k and go over 8 hours of play... no. In theory you could push that meter up to 16k and play for 72 hours straight and not hit the jackpot. However, it is clear that the sevens and the jackpot on this machine aren't set as bad as other machines. They turn over more frequently. I don't want to get into a debate if the machine is beatable or not or anything dealing with the math of the machine. I am just saying that over 10 years of me playing this machine and entering the jackpot from 7900+ I have always come out ahead year in and year out. I have never lost on the machine after hitting the jackpot when starting at that entry point. However, this machine is very volatile and your money will constantly be going down on and up and down roller coaster until you hit the jackpot. I would suggest 15k in cash to even try to attempt to mess with this game if your going to go all the way.Originally Posted by Guy Incognito
Now the much easier less volatile machines are the Dollar Red Hot Sevens (3 dollars a spin) machines. They have these machines all over the floor. I like the entry point at 3200 but you could theoretically start at 2900+ but I have played these machines well over 10 years and never show a loss on them for the year. I have started the machines at 3600 and played them for 40 hours pushing the machines over 5000 before hitting them. At times I have done that and beat the machine outright before hitting the jackpot. The last one I hit over the 5k mark I started around 3800 and played for over 30 hours. I was stuck 2200 at one point and ended up going on a sevens run for a few hours. I was up 1200 when I hit the jackpot for 5000+ with a profit of over 6200. At times I have lost after hitting the jackpot at 4k but it is usually around 500 or so after spending hours on the machine. Many times I sit down at 4200 and snap it off in 30 mins. This all doesn't matter.
The point is that if you are able to hammer these machines starting at 3200+ on the progressive and play till you hit it you will come out ahead every year. Not to mention mailers and comps. These are stand alone progressives that start at 1k. You have to check on them from day to day or every 3 days or so until you see them getting close. Let us say you see a machine at 2700. You know from experience how much play it will gain on the meter. So when you play things like this you have to commit to them until you spin the jackpot off. That strategy will get you the money the fastest way possible. If you can't spin them off you need to get someone else to play for you. You can lock up the machine for 3 hours a day over there per player. You can run the 6 hour trick if you lock up the machine at 9:15 pm they will reset your 3 hours at midnight or when the graveyard manager takes over. Of course this tip might not work for you because I have known all these employees for a very long time so they accommodate me specifically compared to others.
Many of the Reels I play are from experience or word of mouth. I am getting older and things are changing. Many of the machines are being phased out. Many of the new machines are beatable visions but you need to live here and do it constantly. You can't come down to Vegas for a 6 day vacation and expect to beat reels. Your better off playing VP but in all honesty your better off not playing in Vegas if your only here for a short period unless your on some sort of crazy promotion where you basically can't lose. Of course if you know about some mistake in town you can travel here and crush. I know many of you just come here for vacation but my information is for the long haul and I really am not sure how it can help anyone who comes here for the weekend.
Last edited by monet; 04-09-2018 at 01:38 PM.
About 15 years ago Doug Reul told me the frequency of the top line hit on the Blazing Sevens is 16 X 16 X 16 = 4096.
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
Are you saying that the top line is always set to that for every machine in Vegas for the last 15 years or so? I am sure you are not saying that but even if you were that is fine... I am guessing the odds are different for the regular and red sevens depending on where you play. Just for example in my own experience I can give you 3 spots where I used to play them a lot. Mostly I played them at the Palms because when they first put them in the techs told me they were set to 100% payback believe it or not. I can't prove that but I can tell you I played those sevens for almost two decades and they were the best in town. They dropped the payback percentage down and they had them set to a high 99 for a very long time according to some employees that I am/was friendly with. Needless to say when they would run the huge multipliers or promotions I hammered them constantly.Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
Now at Circus Circus it was completely different... I wouldn't mess with them until they got to 2600. The variance of sevens rolling around was completely different. The same goes for downtown and other places but when they first came out they were obviously set at a higher return. About 10 years or so ago I could tell they were changed just by playing them because of the difference in movement. It was obvious they weren't good anymore or the entry point was much higher. I also had a heads up from other players and employees that they were changed/moved.
However I still find playable Reels that are sevens or seven variations but they are almost gone.
Interesting note though about the Red Hot Sevens which is a similar game... I have constantly shown a win on them but you have to be around triple jackpot or better. Like I say I like it at 3200 to start. I had two higher ups as me if I ever lost on them or what do I play and I told them I do but I have been on a very good run and that i mostly play Slots or Reel Machines.
I always figured they don't care if you win on these machines because it doesn't change their hold or win percentage but it is clear that no Casino likes anyone to win constantly on anything and if you show constant winners you are going to draw heat eventually.
When Reul told me that he was talking about machines that existed up to that time.
When I want to know a frequency I use either the slot card or the progressive meter to count the number of spins. I have a tally counter in my pocket that I use to count the number of times a certain symbol lands on the line. And I do it for each reel. The larger the sample space gets the more accurate the information is.
Per the Blazing Seven's if the symbol lands on the line an average of 125 times per 2000 spins then it's 1 in 16.
Last edited by mickeycrimm; 04-10-2018 at 02:31 AM.
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
I am going to break down how to work the free play angle a little more. This doesn't mean that this is the best method or that you can not find other ways to get an edge. This is just something that I currently do and have done for the last few years when things started to change. In the past you didn't have to do things like this because the games were just winners off the jump and marketing lumped all machine play together as one which made things far more lucrative. If you read this and agree with it that is fine... if you disagree that is ok too. I am not trying to sell a book or website or a new offshoot of strategy or anything. I am putting up my own personal experience in machine play and how I do things in Vegas currently. I notice that almost all the players or members on this board don't even live in Vegas. I for one, have lived here 22 years solid and first came here in 1991. I guess that doesn't mean anything but the point is that I haven't had to move away from Vegas and never plan to. I understand how things work in this town for the most part or at least to live how I want to live. The way I do things will not make you rich or make millions. As I have said many times you can expect 8 to 20 dollars an hour on average. Now if you are serious and more ambitious and find mistakes, leaks, promotions or other things you can fall into some serious windfalls.
I haven't read up on Rob Singer and his ways very much. I never even heard of him for over 20 years. The only time I did hear about him is through these forums and how people would say something about him. I never bothered to investigate him. I only recently found out that he wrote a book on VP and another book on his life experience basically a book of interesting stories I suppose. 20 years ago when I was reading black jack books I came across a few books like that where they would tell stories of a year or so in Vegas and it was basically a book of entertainment.
First when you watch these you tube videos of Rob and Alan I get the impression that he doesn't really know what he is talking about. He certainly doesn't speak very well or explain himself that well either. He basically says... you do this because you have 3 or 4 chances to catch this or that. It is obvious that he has taken strategies and proven methods and decided to make up an offshoot of his own ways because it feels right or he found a pattern that works on all single line machines. At least the guys on the infomercials or the Televangelists speak in such a manner that can hook you much easier. You watch Rob tell you that you throw QJT suited away and hold 22 because you have three cards to make another 2 deuces. This one hand alone is some serious crazy talk. Anyone who plays VP and understands basic or advanced strategies knows that QJT suited is the center of the universe. The center of the universe... do you all understand that? Next he goes on to tell you that you throw away paying pairs like KK when you have 3 to the Royal. The reason he explains is that when he is down half of his bankroll or daily bankroll that is when you start to throw pay pairs away to go for 3 to the Royal. This is madness. How anyone on these sites can get behind this guy is pretty amazing but I understand because you have people who followed Jim Jones drinking cyanide-laced grape-flavored Flavor Aid/Kool Aid. So it isn't hard to believe that a sucker is born every minute and anyone can create followers.
For the rest of us or the ones who understand VP understand that the rule of thumb is when the Royal is 6000 coins or better on most machines you throw away the pay pairs and go for the Royal. This Rob Singer doesn't understand things like 4x or 6x Royals or promotions that will give you 12000 coin bonuses for your second Royal. He doesn't understand when a Casino throws up a promotion that lasts almost two years and doubles your Royal and lets you play Full Pay Jokers and other high 99% games or other FP games. He doesn't understand when your able to use your cash back and get 4x the amount to go play Bingo in a room that only has 30 players playing and what kind of an edge that creates. He doesn't understand when Binions has a glitch on the kiosk and let's you swipe 3 extra swipes that it generates and extra 1.5% to the game. He doesn't understand that you can play VP games that are 99.2% payback or 99.56% payback or 99.73% payback and you will always show a loss but you will make it back up in your card that you don't take the cashback but instead you take it off as Free Play rolling it back around in the machines. He also doesn't understand how to rotate players cards and let them fall off and back up as the months go on and you keep rotating them playing different games all the time and that you mix in Reel Play or some Pit play that generates other mailers and anyone knows that you can just follow basic BJ strategy and break even but the comp and mail push you over. The truth is he probably does understand it but he just wants to be the outsider fighting with everyone. I don't mind fighting and challenging authority but he is clearly not doing that.
MC is correct in saying that it is a tremendous amount of work what I do. I have told everyone that from the get go. You work about 60 hours a week to keep everything up but if you understand Reels and when progressives are high enough you stop everything to hammer those out. Just the Reel plays alone that I have talked about will generate you 2500 per month on average and that is cash. That doesn't count the comp, mail and cashback and tournament offers or drawings. The truth is that it doesn't matter because I do not believe anyone on these forums is actually going to get into it or try it because as I have always said... it is hard work... not easy and not for someone who can't take the swings.
So how do you do it? The way that I do it is I have 15 players cards. Almost all cards are top level cards. Rob doesn't even have Chairman Card with Stations which he already admitted. You go and try to play on point days but you want to play on days that aren't point days because at most Casinos these days if you only play on point days you can have problems. On the point days you can even play high denom VP if you want. That is 5/10/25 dollar VP which will get your coin in very fast. So your playing 8/5 bonus and a .6 day giving you 99.8% return. Your mail should generate 1% to 2% added to your play. You play 5 cards for a few months. You get them to max levels. Next you let the levels start to drop while your playing a different set of 5 players cards and you just keep rotating that around and around. If you don't want to play the bonus poker you play smaller denom and higher return games. It isn't that difficult to figure out. You do this inside of 10 to 15 Casinos in town so you will generate 50-75 mailers every month. I currently have over 60 mailers for the month but do I really need to post all those pictures. My pictures are just showing you the difference and what can be done. Alan was talking about Red Rock so I wanted to highlight the 3 different mailers from Stations. Yes those are all Stations owned mail but you can get three mailers rolling from one entity.
When you go to other properties or downtown you are going to play different games. Some Boyd 10/7 DB machines have full points and on point days you can be playing a game that is 100.7% on average. On other properties you will be playing progressive VP that will be well over 100%. As you move around you will fall into promotions that you will be playing at 3% to 5% winners. If you start to understand it you will find mistakes and that can last for years where you are making 5% all day and night long. Try not to abuse things like that too much or you will run the risk of it being pulled.
Many more things to go over and show you but this should be enough to get you started. I know that Rob and others will be in here saying this and that. I expect all that backlash. It doesn't matter. I think the easiest way to explain it is this... if you know that you are going to make a 1% of your money invested you know that every million you run through the system you will make 10k. If you can run 10 million through the system with 20 players cards you will make 5k per card. 5k times 20 is 100k. This is why I say it is very important to spread your play out as much as you possibly can. For over 2 years the Young At Heart Promo was crazy because everyone was playing on the 30X multiplier gaining a 3% advantage plus all over town. This is why everyone was running 80+ players cards because it was just free money spread all over the place. Players were getting greedy and getting caught swiping ten cards at one kiosk without moving around. Finally Boyd got hip and shut it all down for the most part. Sams Town got so Angry they cut almost every video poker machine in the house to a level that wasn't even close to playable. You still can get on the 7/5 BP when it is 2x or 3x Royal. When that 50 cent bank gets up you will see that it is completely full because the APs text or call one another and it is locked down. You still have some progressives all over town like this that are just winners.
Now if you want to just play safe and lower risk you just have to go to Skyline and play the deuces or go and play some of the other deuce machines around town without a card and you should be able to make 8 dollars an hour. So many ways to do things in town. I am not writing books or trying to get traffic on my website. No matter what anyone thinks or says I have been in town longer than almost anyone on these boards and most of the players in town. This town is not easy to survive in. If anyone wants to read this information and use it that is great... if not that is great too. I am only showing how it can be done and this is only one method. If you want to follow a guy who says he does things 95% of the time and it works 100% of the time that is great too. Remember though this Rob Singer has said that he tried to play VP using Advanced or Basic Strategy and lost 250k. So what does he do... he finds patterns that only work on single line machines and not on multi line. He writes a book and changes up the strategy. He says it is all based on where he is currently on his daily BR. This means the strategy doesn't change because of patterns... that the strategy changes because he is down more than 50% of his daily bankroll. I mean if you really are falling or following this idea or strategy you are going to have serious problems. The only thing I can think is that Rob Singer is working for the Casino getting the general public to play from bad to worse. The Casino always loves people with systems. They even admit they love players with systems. What they do not like is players using math to get edges on them and constantly show winners. The Casino really hates players who cheat... they hate those players worse than the honest math guys. Rob Singer said in one of his videos that the Casino Industry is in trouble... if you believe that your crazy as well. Everyone knows the Casinos are crushing. They even figured out how to operate showing huge losses when they aren't losing. Many Billionaires understand how to move money around and operate at losses to get around taxes and many other things. The Casino truly is the real APs of APing.
Very informative and useful posts, monet.
I needed a few extra nights next month during the WSOP. I put in about $15K coin-in (45,000 points with daily 3X multiplier) at Palms Las Vegas in January 2018 on a work-vacation. Played 3 hours on basically a break-even NSU Deuces game (100.03% RTP).
Recently received the following e-mailed offer. Booked it along with 3 nights (reservations was able to comp a third night) in the Ivory Tower.
Thanks for sharing nerakil... of course my information is for local ID but that doesn't matter. Out of state will generate more rooms and the offers will be different but as a general rule of thumb the current conditions are a 1% return for mailers. That is a safe way to calculate your expected return or value. Things change constantly. Some examples... lucky dragon was giving 4K a month for months. SLS went crazy for about 5 months giving 1900 every month. Westgate was giving all my cards 2900 a month for over a year before someone got caught. All of these were well over 1% added. So MC showed the math formula but you have to know when and where this stuff is going on because it keeps changing. You can't listen to Rob Singer and his 10 year old information about GVR and black cards.
Thanks for the information, monet and nerakil. Monet, you are actually giving a pretty clear cut overall concept lesson.
Regarding the scaling back of Young at Heart -- I noticed that they killed the free buffets for that promotion. I'm guessing at this, but my sense was that people would come in and eat for free, providing cover for the people using their cards. Anyway, the Boyd properties are not nearly as busy on Wednesdays since they downgraded the promotion. That, plus Stations is now doing their own senior stuff on Wednesdays, also. So now it's head-to-head.
I did notice that as an out-of-towner, Boyd was giving me $10 of free play just for showing my face and another $10 once I ran $20 through the machines. I don't recall that previously being part of the process. So they seem to have cut back the Young at Heart, but now they are sprinkling some extras in here and there for out-of-towners.
Monet, am I correct in assuming this multiple card strategy use was a no-go before kiosks and will be a no-go again after the kiosks incorporate some kind of fingerprint or facial scan id system tied to player cards? All of this multiple-card use was possible simply because the casinos tried to automatize their systems and make do with fewer employees, thereby bypassing the club desks?
Your correct. I have been saying the door is closing for about ten years. The door is almost shut on VP in general in Vegas. It is still viable but I'm pretty much a dinosaur. I am sure players like Maxpen, RS and AxelWolf have figured better ways out. My ways or how I still do things are almost obsolete. First off... Stations have cameras on every kiosk. Just that in itself is troublesome. Stations have players accounts linked to your cell phone now... physical cards are on their way out. The Palms is 90% or so video reel machines. Video Poker is almost phased out at the Palms. I was at the Palms today and the cards weren't working on the nsud machines. As I have said before a player either has to go back to the poker room or learn these vision video reel machines. VP is on its way out.Originally Posted by redietz
I was in the Palms a few times this week, and I will talk about that in a thread next week. It looked like a hot mess to me. Construction everywhere. Dim and ugly is being replaced by bright and ugly.Originally Posted by monetYour correct. I have been saying the door is closing for about ten years. The door is almost shut on VP in general in Vegas. It is still viable but I'm pretty much a dinosaur. I am sure players like Maxpen, RS and AxelWolf have figured better ways out. My ways or how I still do things are almost obsolete. First off... Stations have cameras on every kiosk. Just that in itself is troublesome. Stations have players accounts linked to your cell phone now... physical cards are on their way out. The Palms is 90% or so video reel machines. Video Poker is almost phased out at the Palms. I was at the Palms today and the cards weren't working on the nsud machines. As I have said before a player either has to go back to the poker room or learn these vision video reel machines. VP is on its way out.Originally Posted by redietz
I will, however, give a big thumbs up to the new buffet, both for quality and value.
Mailer today... I can't use all these buffets... 48 total.
Last edited by monet; 04-14-2018 at 08:48 PM.
Damn, sorry I missed you. I would have been in hog heaven.
Seriously, if anybody is going to be there the rest of the month, it's top notch. I would beg monet for a couple.
Gee....getting giddy over buffets.
monet, while it's very difficult trying to read thru your million word posts, I did catch where you asserted I only have a single line strategy. My five-play strategy ($1/$2/$5/$10/$25) was published in Gaming Today years ago.
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