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Thread: Con men

  1. #1
    So what exactly did WoN / SAP do in order to con WoVers?

    How could they be so fucking stupid as to fall for it?

    Wow, what a bunch of greedy bastards.

    "Fools and their money are soon parted."
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    Last edited by MisterV; 03-13-2018 at 05:46 PM.
    What, Me Worry?

  2. #2
    Until monet came along I had a view of Aps as people like MC.....they find slots that are naturally ready to pay and go for it while using their free play and comps
    I heard stories by axel about reaching under and stealing quarters in the old days....and thats as shady as I thought it got.

    So wov was supposedly filled with those type of APs in my mind. No worse than folks that cheat on income tax or drive over the speed limit

    Then monet came along and I thought he was nuts. He talked about all APs having a shady side including himself. Some more than others. And some more than others at various times in their lives.

    But as i pay more attention to various stories and try to figure out whats going on ...I see it can be a shady world. All of a sudden to me Wov wasnt filled with these virtuous folks who just find the best plays that others dont know about....just armed with knowledge and no shady activity.

    There was questionable activity.

    And then this thing broke about WoN, and people being scammed as they chased a shady proposition. It gave monet great credibility.

    It made me view wov and any AP site as a bastion for shady deals. Wov was portraying itself as a place for the virtuous , a place where everything was above board...strictly a board for mathmatical learning about the best plays......figuring out probabilities. solving math problems, while the underbelly side of AP was not openly discussed. So people like me on the outside saw the squeaky clean side of things. I wouldnt even know where to look to find the dirt.

    So over thelast 2-3 days...its been an eye opener for a novice like me. While mission became the fall guy I learned a small portion of what is really going on.

    I think the wiz, and the mods know about the underside of AP. Many may have even profited from the underside via WON or other contacts. Shady dealings.

    which may be why you didnt hear a peep from any mod denouncing shady disgusting that behavior dishonorable....

    Its not simply earning free play by strategically playing on triple point days, or accumulating comps like I originally thought. But there is definitely underhanded behavior and activity.Illegal behavior.

    And with that being said....wov was outed this week at least to naive people like me..the world of AP was outed this week to naive people like me, and I probably dont even know 10 percent of the stuff that goes on.

    So mission was the sacrificial lamb so that the mods and the APs can say they purged the bad players out......and now everything is on the up and up.

    BUT in the end nothing has changed, nothing was accomplished.....everything is as it was a week ago. Its not like the valiant and pious APs remain..or the valiant and pious mods
    Last edited by LarryS; 03-13-2018 at 09:07 PM.

  3. #3
    Too much drama.

    How I yearn for the carefree, halycon days spent on the old usenet craps and Las Vegas sites.

    Oh wait, it was just as crazy then; never mind.
    What, Me Worry?

  4. #4
    How did this site ever go from Alan and Singer to this?. It was inevitable once these 2 signed up tho

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    How did this site ever go from Alan and Singer to this?. It was inevitable once these 2 signed up tho
    How did this site go to what, exactly, Keystone"

    To answer your rhetorical question, those two were "lightning rods:" not only did they post prolifically, their posts often drew responses due to their confrontational, aggressive nature.

    With them gone things haved quieted down substantially.

    It is up to those who are still here to continue to post, if they wish to, and thus set the tone for this board.

    This board, like your life, is what you make it.
    What, Me Worry?

  6. #6
    I'm not an AP except in the sense that I like to minimize my actual out of pocket expense for the entertainment of gambling.

    That having been said, I think it should be valuable to people who are or aspire to be APs that people are commenting here about this stuff. I rarely read on WOV but like LarryS I thought it was all just sharing knowledge about promotions and contests that created advantages worthwhile enough for players who do this for a living and travel around to do so to know where to go. That there's people buying free play and not paying and all these other scams is probably more surprising that it should have been.

  7. #7
    Do these so-called AP's actually use stolen or "lost" cards of others without their permission?

    How can they access any accrued free play without knowing the card owner's P.I.N., which is typically required to redeem anything?

    Sounds like a felony to me, and if so, a woeful cost/benefit situation.

    These birds would be better off getting a real job and then gambling after hours in their spare time.
    What, Me Worry?

  8. #8
    I also wonder f some of the cards are stolen and if so are pins retrieved in underhanded ways.

    Also I suspect cards from patrons that are ok..meaning that the owner knows about it and agrees to be paid cash for dollars he wont be around to play.....possibly those cards like cocaine, gets passed down from buyer to buyer,,,..each making a profit.

    Someone can steal a diamond card that is left in a machine,and claim that it has 1000 on it and sell it for 400.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Do these so-called AP's actually use stolen or "lost" cards of others without their permission?

    How can they access any accrued free play without knowing the card owner's P.I.N., which is typically required to redeem anything?

    Sounds like a felony to me, and if so, a woeful cost/benefit situation.

    These birds would be better off getting a real job and then gambling after hours in their spare time.
    No, how would you do that? I'm not saying it's never been done in history (I've never seen it, though) but you would obviously have to know the PIN. The only way what you are describing could happen is if someone ran around watching people put PINs in and hoping for them to lose the card, or if someone wrote the PIN actually on the card, I guess.

    It would be a woeful cost/benefit and I imagine quite possibly illegal.

    Besides that, if you jacked someone's Free Play without their permission and they go to the Players Club wondering what happened to their Free Play, I would hope the casino could see what machine the Free Play was played on and then would go to the surveillance and WHAMMO as soon as the casino sees the person that played it in there again.

    I know some systems can see what specific machines a card was played on, but I believe that there are also systems that cannot.

    ADDED: The CET properties in Atlantic City (maybe everywhere) have one really cool thing in that the numbers are scrambled when you put your PIN in, which is to say that they never appear in order. The result is that nobody could ever see what PIN you are putting in unless they are practically right next to you. It would be cool if everywhere did that, but I imagine there are a bunch of PIN resets because of people putting their own PIN wrong too many times.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
    I also wonder f some of the cards are stolen and if so are pins retrieved in underhanded ways.

    Also I suspect cards from patrons that are ok..meaning that the owner knows about it and agrees to be paid cash for dollars he wont be around to play.....possibly those cards like cocaine, gets passed down from buyer to buyer,,,..each making a profit.

    Someone can steal a diamond card that is left in a machine,and claim that it has 1000 on it and sell it for 400.
    The only way what you are describing would be possible would have to come from the inside because of either malice or negligence.

    MALICE: Casino staff changes the PIN for you. Casino staff, I believe, have no way of knowing what the PIN is, but they can change it.

    NEGLIGENCE: Casino staff fails to ID you when you go up to the Players Club and ask for the PIN to be reset. They should definitely be ID'ing a person if they want to reset a PIN, though.

    I don't think a PIN could be retrieved any other way in most systems, but I could be wrong. I guess it could theoretically be stored in the barcode somewhere, but I believe the barcode just has the PC number and the computer system stores the PIN. Maybe it depends on the casino. I've never considered doing anything anywhere near along these lines, so I've never really investigated the matter too much.

    Yes, cards that the owner has given or sold to someone is not an uncommon thing at all. There are varying levels of white/black/gray on that.

    I mean, if I go in with my fiance's card and I pick up my free play and hers, on a moral level, that's about as white as it gets. However, that would violate the terms of some casinos. In others, it might not. In other still, it might violate the terms, but they don't really care about it.

    As to the last part, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be a high-level card. You could just claim that a card had big first day action on it and has great offers. My advice is don't buy cards from people, ever.



    I want to be very clear, talking about this stuff is all well and fine, but just don't involve yourselves in any of this kind of bullshit unless you have ridiculously good reasons to trust a person.


    I'm going to assume that you are acting in a light gray area, and still tell you the potential problems:

    Let's say that the owner of a Players Club card, which is in that person's name, tells you that there is Free Play on it and offers to sell it to you for a discount. Again, in the AP world, this is a somewhat routine transaction. The darkest that this could even be is probably light gray, in my view.

    Okay, so you pay cash for the card and have no written contract or record that guarantees the Free Play or stipulates any kind of resolution if the card gets killed or the Free Play is not what it is supposed to be. Even with documentation, I don't even see how it could be legally binding because you are already probably violating the casino's PC terms...but who knows?

    Anyway, you pay for the card and expect the Free Play to be on there. Maybe you saw the mail or E-Mail.

    1.) You could pick up the Free Play on one or more pickups, but then the owner of the card decides to jack you by going in and changing the PIN.

    2.) The owner of the card could report the card lost/stolen, get a new card, and then ask, "Where is my Free Play that is supposed to be on here?" Again, WHAMMO for the person who used the card if that person could be identified.

    3.) The offers could be not what was expected.

    4.) The PIN could end up needing reset organically, which I mean not by anything the person you bought it from did. If that happens, now you have to hope that the person can come back and reset it so you can access the Free Play again, unless there is a person at the Players Club who does it without asking for an ID.

    4a.) Also, keep in mind that some casinos have the picture of you stored from your driver's license in the computer. If that happens, then they may not ask for an ID as long as you look sufficiently like the person in question. If you look nothing like the person, they will almost certainly ask for an ID. NOW THAT'S GOING TO BE BIG TROUBLE. The reason why is that you are going to say something like, "Sorry, left it in the car, be right back." If the casino person does not report that sort of thing to a security person or supervisor as suspicious, I would say that is negligent.

    4b.) For that reason, it's better not to go reset a PIN if you are not the person whose name is on the card. That's especially true if you know that the picture is in their system or if you don't know whether it is or not.

    4c.) Maybe the person cannot make it back to the casino. After all, one would assume that they sold the Free Play to you for a reason. If the person is on the up-and-up, that's probably the reason.

    5.) It could be a place where the mail gets killed if no play is done and only Free Play is picked up and you don't know that.

    6.) You could legitimately lose the card, now you need the person to come back. There should be NO WAY a Players Club representative gives you a completely new physical card without an ID.

    There are any other number of transactions and scenarios that would take me eleven million years to describe in full. Almost everything along these lines is done on a, "Good word," basis, which is why people get rightfully pissed if there are any shenanigans along these lines that they feel they or others are victims of.

    Anyway, if you want my advice, my advice is DON'T DO IT. If you want to sell your card to someone, and you're not going to screw them over, that's morally fine. If you want to pick up Free Play for someone at a percentage, in my view, that's morally fine if you're not going to screw them.

    I think buying cards straight up that purportedly have Free Play is nuts, but it's a common thing. I would pick up for a percentage or flat fee, but I would never buy. Unless you're absolutely loaded and losing money is a risk you're willing to take, Always Sell, Never Buy.

    Also, be aware that all things described are quite possibly illegal in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

    If you want the, "Safest," course of action, it is to never do any of this. If you do any of this, then that is automatically not the most safe thing you could be doing. Understand the risks, think about every conceivable possibility.
    Last edited by Mission146; 03-14-2018 at 10:36 AM.

  11. #11
    It all depends on the employees and where you are at. Some employees are strict and want ID, players card, PIN number, urine and blood samples. Other employees don't give a hoot and swipe and say yeah whatever. The employees that bother me are the ones who swipe and tell you to sign and that's when they ask for the ID. Those employees get me going. I say, you swipe my account, give me the food and have me sign the bill and now you want ID??? F U buddy I forgot it... now what!?

    I can tell you this... let's say you have a friend or friends on the inside. It is amazing how much power employees have at the players club... they can literally make a mistake and add 1000 free play to your account instead of the 100. Oops sorry boss I put an extra zero since we were so busy and I was going too fast. Put it this way... in any aspect of life you will find anything has a price or can be bought or sold.

    However, don't listen to me. It's obvious that I'm just a degenerate, lunatic who has been involved in gaming since 8 years old which gives me over 30+ years experience. I've been in Vegas since 91 but I didn't get rooted until 98/99 or so. I'm just a no good scum sucker making up fictitious stories for my own amusement.

    The difference between me and others is nobody gets PMs from me looking to meet up. It's always the other way around with members asking to meet me. The one exception was when I publicly tried to get 10 members to go to Hugo's with me but so many members seemed scared and people were posting it's a bad idea to let everyone know what day and time and The place. For me... I ain't scared. Nothing to hide and F the Casino if they throw me out for association. So instead I offered to meet ZK as long as AW showed up. They did and we played pool and it was nice but I hardly talk to them at all since. The only time I hear from Axel is when he asks me to stop posting up plays and information and I reply F that I'll post whatever I want but sometimes I'm nice to him and go delete things like double up at the Plaza. I'm not a total ahole??
    Last edited by monet; 03-14-2018 at 02:24 PM.

  12. #12
    Thanks for clarifying the way that AP's use the free play on cards they acquire, seemingly by a sale of the card by its owner to the AP.

    Good to know, although I'll likely never attempt it myself.
    What, Me Worry?

  13. #13
    I will never attempt it either. Although my wife always plays on my card and has even got w2g'd a few times. Which leads to t he question...can a casino with hold payment from the buyer of the card...or later on upon audit try to recapture money from the cardholder when they notice at the time or later on that the drivers lic. and social sec card were from another person from another address than the know for handpay w2g events.
    And if they do....what good is the card,,,,,arent you trying to get a big hit?

  14. #14
    More will be added to this post that will be on-topic. Apparently, I have hit five in a day again.

    Response to LarryS in the WoV Thread:

    The first reason you should shut your mouth is because it’s none of your business.

    The second reason you should shut your mouth is because you don’t know me or my personality. I asked Wizard, as a friend, not to publicly defend me. If anyone is asking him privately, I imagine he is defending me. If I ask Wizard as a friend not to publicly defend me, and he does, then Wizard would be defying my request as a friend. If Wizard would defy my request as a friend he would be slightly less my friend than he is now.

    The third reason you should shut your mouth is the site, and what he sold it for, has nothing to do with anything.

    The fourth reason you should shut your mouth is because Wizard has proven, to my satisfaction, that he is my friend. Many times. Whether or not you think Wizard is my friend is immaterial, so please take your opinion of whether or not he is my friend, copy/paste it to a document a few hundred times, print it out and shove it up your ass.

    The fifth reason you should shut your mouth about my friendships is because, if you don’t, I will never respond to you publicly or privately, knowingly, ever again.

    I accept the apology that you will likely never give me. I said what I have to say. You and I are cool and are starting from zero, clean slate, as soon as you finish reading this sentence.
    Last edited by Mission146; 03-14-2018 at 04:58 PM.

  15. #15
    You shut your mouth when your talking to me!

  16. #16
    I take from the response from mission that in the situation at Wov, he was dirtier than I expected. Hence he seems to vehemently not want his "friends" to defend him, and hence he didnt do much to defend himself. I just didnt know the extent .....but now I have a better gauge.

    Still it doesnt lessen the cowardice of shackleford. As he did with KJ , he is glad to take the path of least resistance....not the path or being right, humane, fair, loyal, valiant.

    A coward dies a thousand deaths.....the valiant but one.

    seems the wiz has a thousand lives.,,much better than a cat.

    its "mikes place" he can act a coward if he likes....blah blah blah. What a good good "friend"

    His sale of the site is public record....a link to the article was posted on wov at the time.

    from your "shut your mouth" tirade....I can see I hit a nerve.....the truth hurts.

  17. #17
    Watching now!
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  18. #18

  19. #19

  20. #20
    LarryS., Mission has been forced to eat a shit sandwich this week, and I expect the very last thing he wants or needs is to have you insist that he keep eating more.

    He's had to endure enough bullshit from the card carrying munchkins; just give the man a break.

    Your intended target was the wiz, not Mission, but they say "timing is everything" and this just ain't the time.
    What, Me Worry?

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