Retro Road Trip

[redietz]

Two new things of note that were mentioned earlier in this thread:

1) If you check vegasinsider.com and look up how sports bettors did under "NFL news," you'll find that sports book managers are now discussing which teams they needed in terms of, "We needed this on the east coast; we needed something else in Las Vegas." It's the first time discussions have been framed like this, and it opens the debate regarding whether regional compartmentalization will occur with different lines in different locales. Regnis and I discussed this earlier in this thread.

2) Pennsylvania, according to the proverbial "word on the street," will be legalizing sports betting sometime in the next 72 hours, and they can be up and running in a couple of weeks. This, despite the unprecedented $10 million tariff and 36% cut going to the state, which are both absolutely ridiculous. The question is whether Pennsylvania sports books will attempt to charge more than the normal 11-10 to overcome these burdens. Another question is how many of the entities bidding (and willing to shell out the $10 million) will Pennsylvania license in the state. We should know shortly.

[regnis]

Redietz-have you been able to determine if the few states that have legalized sports betting have different lines than Vegas? And when ultimately this all goes on-line, how would they differentiate the lines by location?

It will be interesting to watch Pennsylvania. The horse racing there is so crooked that most players won't bet Penn races.

[redietz]

Redietz-have you been able to determine if the few states that have legalized sports betting have different lines than Vegas? And when ultimately this all goes on-line, how would they differentiate the lines by location?

It will be interesting to watch Pennsylvania. The horse racing there is so crooked that most players won't bet Penn races.

Thus far, the lines have been, in theory, identical. Now what happens in the 10 minutes prior to kickoff can't really be ascertained, which is something I learned a long time ago. When Caesars Palace, for example, would list their closing lines publicly 20-30 years ago, or vegasinsider would list them, I can tell you as someone standing in line at the sport book the final few minutes, the lines were not always as reported. Right now, though, for practical purposes, the lines are the same. I suspect this will not be the case for long. This should result in what we discussed. If Pennsylvania, for example, allows three different books, those whose Las Vegas volume is significantly different ratio-wise LV/PA will be forced to have different numbers.

I lived in Harrisburg for five years, and went to Penn National about 25 times a year. The local saying: there are no 3/5 favorites at Penn National. Meaning that you cannot play them. Pennsylvania horse racing gouges the players percentage-wise, so the state's attempt at absconding with 36% of sports, while asinine, fits the modus operandi.

[mickeycrimm]

I read somewhere that Delaware is reporting a 30% win on the action. If true thats abominable.

[redietz]

I read somewhere that Delaware is reporting a 30% win on the action. If true thats abominable.

If it's true, it may have more to do with the three closest NFL teams, the Giants, Jets, and Eagles, combining to go 3-9 ATS. I imagine that the Steelers and Patriots would also get some backing in that neck of the woods, so it may just be the way the local teams fared the first month.

[The Boz]

Redietz-have you been able to determine if the few states that have legalized sports betting have different lines than Vegas? And when ultimately this all goes on-line, how would they differentiate the lines by location?

It will be interesting to watch Pennsylvania. The horse racing there is so crooked that most players won't bet Penn races.

Thus far, the lines have been, in theory, identical. Now what happens in the 10 minutes prior to kickoff can't really be ascertained, which is something I learned a long time ago. When Caesars Palace, for example, would list their closing lines publicly 20-30 years ago, or vegasinsider would list them, I can tell you as someone standing in line at the sport book the final few minutes, the lines were not always as reported. Right now, though, for practical purposes, the lines are the same. I suspect this will not be the case for long. This should result in what we discussed. If Pennsylvania, for example, allows three different books, those whose Las Vegas volume is significantly different ratio-wise LV/PA will be forced to have different numbers.

I lived in Harrisburg for five years, and went to Penn National about 25 times a year. The local saying: there are no 3/5 favorites at Penn National. Meaning that you cannot play them. Pennsylvania horse racing gouges the players percentage-wise, so the state's attempt at absconding with 36% of sports, while asinine, fits the modus operandi.

Ha, RE, we probably overlapped many tines as I grew up in Harrisburg years ago and started my gambling at Penn National in the late 70’s and 80’s. I’m sure we know some of the same people from the employees there, local books and even local Politicians who liked to play the ponies and more.

It was a great place to learn about how crooked the horsemen (Ok, most of them) were in those days. The games they played didn’t allow the average player without inside info to have a chance to win. The $2500 claimers were the majority of races most nights with the occasional maiden race of long time non-winners setup to lose to a chosen newcomer.

And then you had the touts selling the Green sheet and others inside the door for a couple bucks. But you could get a beer and Hot Dog for a couple bucks.

They always had the boxing matches on PPV and packed the place for those. I clearly remember Cooney-Holmes like it was yesterday including fights in the parking lot afterwards.

Great memories, now the racing is an afterthought due to the casino. But the simulcast room is open with a few oldtimers still there almost daily. Hard to breath in there from all the cigar smoke.

I’m sure we could share PN stories for hours. Thanks for bringing it up! Boz

[The Boz]

And you nailed it with how crazy the state is in regards to taking the casinos. About a year ago they offered the casinos a license to allow 24/7 Alcohol sales for $10 Million and actually budgeted for 4 casinos to purchase it.

Naturally none did, and probably wouldn’t have for free. They knew as the only place to purchase alcohol after 2AM anywhere in the state they would attract every drunk that wanted to continue the party. And as the last place someone drinks, they would be legally responsible for every drunk that headed out on the road, even if he only had one. The liability insurance alone makes it’s not worthwhile. And with most not having hotels, it would only make matters worse.

Just another example of PA politicians being out of touch.

[redietz]

Redietz-have you been able to determine if the few states that have legalized sports betting have different lines than Vegas? And when ultimately this all goes on-line, how would they differentiate the lines by location?

It will be interesting to watch Pennsylvania. The horse racing there is so crooked that most players won't bet Penn races.

Thus far, the lines have been, in theory, identical. Now what happens in the 10 minutes prior to kickoff can't really be ascertained, which is something I learned a long time ago. When Caesars Palace, for example, would list their closing lines publicly 20-30 years ago, or vegasinsider would list them, I can tell you as someone standing in line at the sport book the final few minutes, the lines were not always as reported. Right now, though, for practical purposes, the lines are the same. I suspect this will not be the case for long. This should result in what we discussed. If Pennsylvania, for example, allows three different books, those whose Las Vegas volume is significantly different ratio-wise LV/PA will be forced to have different numbers.

I lived in Harrisburg for five years, and went to Penn National about 25 times a year. The local saying: there are no 3/5 favorites at Penn National. Meaning that you cannot play them. Pennsylvania horse racing gouges the players percentage-wise, so the state's attempt at absconding with 36% of sports, while asinine, fits the modus operandi.

Ha, RE, we probably overlapped many tines as I grew up in Harrisburg years ago and started my gambling at Penn National in the late 70’s and 80’s. I’m sure we know some of the same people from the employees there, local books and even local Politicians who liked to play the ponies and more.

It was a great place to learn about how crooked the horsemen (Ok, most of them) were in those days. The games they played didn’t allow the average player without inside info to have a chance to win. The $2500 claimers were the majority of races most nights with the occasional maiden race of long time non-winners setup to lose to a chosen newcomer.

And then you had the touts selling the Green sheet and others inside the door for a couple bucks. But you could get a beer and Hot Dog for a couple bucks.

They always had the boxing matches on PPV and packed the place for those. I clearly remember Cooney-Holmes like it was yesterday including fights in the parking lot afterwards.

Great memories, now the racing is an afterthought due to the casino. But the simulcast room is open with a few oldtimers still there almost daily. Hard to breath in there from all the cigar smoke.

I’m sure we could share PN stories for hours. Thanks for bringing it up! Boz

A friend of mine has a small racing stable. He's now at Delaware, but 10-20 years back, he was at Penn National. His trainer, who died a few years ago, used every manner of trickeration, eventually was suspended, had an assistant take over, came back, then I believe was banned. Penn National had one of the first big time horse handicapping tournaments, and I tried to assist other friends who entered from all over the country.

It was a cool place. I had no idea you hung at Penn National, Boz. It was a classic.

[regnis]

In today's racing form.

https://www.drf.com/news/trainer-alb...ylvania-county

[The Boz]

In today's racing form.

https://www.drf.com/news/trainer-alb...ylvania-county

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Back in the day, the horsemen has the opportunity to make more money from gambling on or against their own horses then they did from the purses. The problem was they were always trying to f each other, and it never consistently worked. Unless it was a big event weekend, there was never enough “Dead” money to hide the wagers. Watching the infield tote board was a spectator sport in its own right. Trying to figure out who was up to what.

The lessons one learned about gambling and human nature lasted a lifetime for me. Definitely good times, like You said RE.

[regnis]

Back in the day when there was only one trifecta on the last race of the day, we had one harness driver that we were friendly with. He was a lousy driver but he would give us the live horses in that last race. Half of the horses were stiff--so you just used the other horses. Sometimes he would give the exact order of finish. But after a while, there were so many in on it the trifecta didn't pay enough for all the subterfuge. It was a joke.

[redietz]

In today's racing form.

https://www.drf.com/news/trainer-alb...ylvania-county

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Back in the day, the horsemen has the opportunity to make more money from gambling on or against their own horses then they did from the purses. The problem was they were always trying to f each other, and it never consistently worked. Unless it was a big event weekend, there was never enough “Dead” money to hide the wagers. Watching the infield tote board was a spectator sport in its own right. Trying to figure out who was up to what.

The lessons one learned about gambling and human nature lasted a lifetime for me. Definitely good times, like You said RE.

Let me first say, I know nothing about horses.

I enjoyed going to PN on weekdays, especially in cold or bad weather. Very few people; you had the run of the place. Here's the thing. No whales at the time, no betting on PN from around the country into a sizeable pool. The tote board was the tote board. So on weekdays, some people would know what was up with various races, but they would not bet it all ways. So if they bet it in exotics, it wasn't bet in win. If they bet it win, they'd skip either place or exotics. I'd just watch the board, do the ratios in my head, and figure out where the value was. Sometimes it was way off, and I'd throw a few bucks on the value, regardless of what it was. Usually you'd find a race or two each night. I can't say I made any real money, but I didn't lose any.


I miss the old Penn National.

[regnis]

Here's a little more pennsylvania racing news.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...in-parx-races/

[mickeycrimm]

Deleted. Wrong thread.

[mickeycrimm]

Got this email a couple days ago. Santa Ana Star is in Bernalillo just north of Albuquerque. I'm sure the other casinos around Albuquerque will follow suit because it is a big competition factor. The book will draw sportsbettors in that will dump money on other things.

[mickeycrimm]

Here's the fabulous new sportsbook at the Santa Ana Star in Bernalillo, New Mexico. There are no TV's, no seating, and I had to stand very close to the counter to read the lines. I was there Sunday. I went looking for a place to watch the games and all they had were some small TV's at the bars and they were all on the same game.

[redietz]

Thanks for the photos, mickey. I'm not surprised that states with legalization are firing it up even though underequipped and not prepared. The numbers and projections from New Jersey are so outstanding that everyone is jumping in. Think about it. By 2020, unless NY siphons off a big chunk by then, New Jersey will pass Nevada. And if NY gets things rolling, they will certainly surpass Nevada in two years. My friends reported that Delaware was not much better organized than New Mexico just a few months ago.

[regnis]

My basement would be a better venue. And I have 5 tvs down there.

[MaxPen]

Looks well staffed. Don't see any customers though.

[mickeycrimm]

Looks well staffed. Don't see any customers though.

I waited for the area to clear before taking the pic. While it wasn't a thundering heard there was a steady stream of bettors.