Expected Value Discussion

[kewlJ]

I don't remember who it was that said this on another thread, but it was suggested that the people behind the tables have tedious boring jobs and are just looking to get to the end of their shift without any major problems.

I have said this a number of times on several site, but perhaps you are referring to someone else. Bill Zender said things along these lines as well as a personal pit friend. Most pit critter's are working "joes". They just want to get through their day with minimal hassle just like anyone else. Do you think they want to come over to the table, tell a player he is not welcome to play and get flack and create bad vibes from other players? Of course not. BUT on the other hand, he doesn't want to get flack from a higher up that comes up to him later on and says, "there was a counter at your table that walked with 5 figures. Why didn't you do something about that".

So the thing to do is try not to put him in that second position. Short sessions and moderate bet levels with generally keep results down to where he doesn't have to answer for it.

Now the exception is what I call the "gung ho" type pit person. Usually a younger guy (male) looking to make a name for himself. Fortunately, usually you can spot him a mile off just from body language.

[Alan Mendelson]

I find it hard to believe the security net at so many casinos have such big holes.

Great point MisterV.

[LarryS]

I understand.

But there are only so many casinos in sin city, and by report you limit yourself to playing at, what, 20 or so different ones?

You've played regularly / near-daily for years now, which means you play the same ones over and over, albeit not daily; a sharp-eyed pit critter might recall having seen you before, winning regularly.

That might cause him to study your play, at which time he'd discover your modus operandi of hitting and running after scoring on a favorable count.

You or someone else posted something to the effect that the quality of surveillance in this regard leaves something to be desired, thus allowing you your opportunity.

I'm just saying I'm surprised you've been getting away with it and not being detected and backed off; obviously your plan is working.

I have heard this for years on boards how stupid the casinos are. The dice setters tell us that they are successful and the casinsos see them being successful and wond do anything as simple as outlawing setting because the casinos are stupid. KJ may not say they are stupiid....but just indifferent joes who want to go home and see the family and not get involved in shit. I would think that a pit boss or someone in authority could make a name for himslef by legitimately thwarting people that the casino feels are stealing from them. That is the attitude of the casino...card counters are stealing/cheating . So wouldnt they promote or praise someone who "catches a thief" and tosses them out. I dont buy the "indifference of a working joe" or "the casinos are so stupid" angle at all. I think all casino workers want to do well and be promoted.(unless they are going to school for something bigger and do this to get by for now)

[tableplay]

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

The casinos rarely allowing interviews on the floor are probably not due to Rob's success rate at VP right ? I certainly hope you're not implying that that is the reason for their main floor reticence.

[tableplay]

That is the attitude of the casino...card counters are stealing/cheating

The casino management is not taking the position that counters are cheating - they just don't like anyone winning money from them consistently.
Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos (they are not quite so concerned about who pushes the buttons), so there is less heat - I'm not saying there is no heat, of course there is, but you are more likely to get heat from other players (fellow vultures and mean-spirited/nosy civilians) than you are from casino personnel on machine plays.

[LarryS]

IF the casinos dont allow card counting...and you count cards...then its defacto cheating(playing against their rules)....cheating that leads to stealing.

why else would they maintain photogrraphs of card counters and hire people to identify them. The card counters are cheating against either written or unwritten rules.

you can walk up to a craps table and say that you have a system..and proceed to win and no one will touch you. However if you walk up to a BJ table and say you have a card counting system....they will toss you before your first hand...before you can even prove to them that you can win.

and why would the "average joe" floor guy call security to thow you out as an announced card counter.....because its against the written or unwritten rules of the house....and going against those rules is a form of cheating and or stealing

[Alan Mendelson]

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

[tableplay]

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

[tableplay]

IF the casinos dont allow card counting...and you count cards...then its defacto cheating(playing against their rules)....cheating that leads to stealing.

why else would they maintain photogrraphs of card counters and hire people to identify them. The card counters are cheating against either written or unwritten rules.

you can walk up to a craps table and say that you have a system..and proceed to win and no one will touch you. However if you walk up to a BJ table and say you have a card counting system....they will toss you before your first hand...before you can even prove to them that you can win.

and why would the "average joe" floor guy call security to thow you out as an announced card counter.....because its against the written or unwritten rules of the house....and going against those rules is a form of cheating and or stealing

If you get caught cheating at a casino you will be arrested and thrown in jail. If you get caught card counting you will get 86'ed from the casino. There's a difference.

[mickeycrimm]

Obsessed redietz who can't let the chance for a dig at me or Rob Singer wrote:

"That video poker player's profile would stand out like a T. Rex in a chicken coop to casino personnel, so undoubtedly the investigative reporter would turn his full cynical eye to such a series of posts and claims."

It's been well documented that Rob was told not to play in certain casinos because of his winnings. When I did the interviews with him it was tough to find a casino that would let us do them on the casino floor, so one set of interviews were done in my room at Caesars and one set was done in the high limit area of Hard Rock.

Another strike out for redietz.

Alan, why do you have to go idiot on everything? Can't you just snap out of it? Show us this documentation of Rob being barred from any and all casinos because of his video poker play. Then your dumass tries to make it look like they won't let you film because of Rob's video poker play. STFU! I quit taking pictures of the inside of casinos and putting them up in the road pic thread because I got to many warnings about taking pictures. Wise up.

[LarryS]

i didnt say card counting was against the law where there are laws on the books that can place you in jail as viewed by the eyes of the LAW. I never talked about federal or state laws. I have no idea what you are talking about. Casinos have their own rules and "laws". And their own legal system and punishment based on their in house laws.

I said that the casinos in their world view card countng cheating and stealing and take measures to eliminate it as much as they can.

[Alan Mendelson]

Mickeycrimm why do you go idiot? Rob was never banned from any and all casinos for his video poker play but specific casinos did block him.

[Alan Mendelson]

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

Read again what you wrote. You wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being MORE DIRECTLY financed by other players and not the casinos" and that's just not true. There is no difference among video poker, craps and blackjack players.

[mickeycrimm]

I thought KJ was the only blackjack professional on this site. Boy was I wrong. Alan, larry, V, they all know the score about blackjack and getting away with it. You guys must have tons of experience. Tell us more. We are eager to learn.

Guy walks up to the blackjack table, looks at the pit boss, says "Hah ya'll doin? Muh names' Billy Bob Bubba Jones, jus' up from Bug Sprangs, Texus, and ah'm a ca'd countuh. Kin ah play heah?"

Pit boss smiles a predatory smile and says "Grab a seat!."

[Alan Mendelson]

Mickeycrimm I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM and NYNY. It only took one session for the pit to nab me. And kewlj has escaped detection for how long?

I admit you guys really do stick together, even on a sinking ship..

[tableplay]

Blackjack players just as video poker players and craps players are plating against the house.

Tableplay wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being more directly financed by other players and not the casinos"

More misinformation from our learned APs.

Your usual straw man nonsense. Nowhere in the statement of mine you quoted did I say that machine players are not playing against the house.

Read again what you wrote. You wrote "Machine hustling is different since the winnings are being MORE DIRECTLY financed by other players and not the casinos" and that's just not true. There is no difference among video poker, craps and blackjack players.

So, if, for example, a must hit $10000 jackpot progressive on a slot is at $9999.99, which was brought up to this level by other players, and then is hit by someone besides those players, you are saying that this is not financed by those players, and that this is no different than someone counting cards at black jack right Alan ?
Or when a natural royal flush progressive hits 8000 coins (5 coin max per deal-draw) and someone (or some vp team) comes along and takes it down, that this is the same as card count grind outs right ?

[LarryS]

Mickeycrimm I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM and NYNY. It only took one session for the pit to nab me. And kewlj has escaped detection for how long?

I admit you guys really do stick together, even on a sinking ship..

since you admit to being a lifetime lose ar craps......what was the reason for the ban. were you holding up the game by setting dice or taking too much tome to throw? I can see where they feel that could cost them money. Otherwise whats the reason in your opinion because it has to be opinion..i doubt they gave you a detailed explanation...because they dont have to

[Alan Mendelson]

LarryS sometimes I've won and sometimes I actually got lucky and my dice appeared to be controlled.

I've written on the Internet many times about being banned. There are posts on Las Vegas Advisor and WOV and on this forum too. MrV might even remember.

Bellagio also banned me for a short time but management later apologized for what happened.

No, I did not slow the game.

[kewlJ]

LarryS, the terminology you are using, "against house rules" or "against casino rules" reminds me a lot of the late poster PaigowDan at WoV. A dealer and casino employee, he used to use those term all the time.

Let me explain to you how it works. Except for the real "rinky dink casinos" like Joker's wild on Boulder highway\, there is a procedure for dealing with suspected card counters. A skill check is initiated. That skill check can be initiated from the floor or from above (surveillance), but the skill check is performed by surveillance. Generally they want to see a player moving money with the count through 2 or more shoes and since some shoes barely go positive (or negative) they may not even see bets being raised or lowered for several shoes. So in general this skill check takes 30 minutes or longer.

Now once the skill check is complete, then a decision is made as to what level of threat the players is. Many players are barely playing a winning game because they use too small a bet spread, chicken out putting out their larger bets. And even if the player is playing a winning game, he may be underfunded in which case he probably don't have the funds to win longterm, so even though he is placing larger wagers in +EV situation, normal negative variance will likely wipe him out.

Now once they decide the player is playing a winning game, they have to decide, what action to take. Maybe card counter Joe over there is in fact playing a winning game to the tune of $20 bucks an hour. But his wife a slot player, loses $75-$100 an hour Or his friend that he is playing with is not a good player and loses more than that. So do they want to tell Joe card counter he is no longer welcome to play and risk losing his wife and friends business? In addition as I said, it is rather bad publicity to come to the table and state that in front of other players. That is why in the past they always attempted to get the player away from the table, in the back room. That has sort of become a thing of the past because of so many lawsuits and Attorney Bob Nersesian doing a great job of informing players of their rights. So now backoff occur right at the table.

But it is a last resort. And it is a several step process, skill check which takes 30 minutes plus. Determine that the player is not only playing with an advantage, but playing enough of a winning game that he is a significant threat to the casino. Make sure that 86ing this player and whatever amount he is winning per hour does not cost even more by the loss of his wife, or friends. Any mistakes and pre-mature 86ing on the part of the floor person and he is getting reamed for it.

So yeah, unless there is a player that is definitively playing a strong game and a threat to the casino, where as he is playing big enough stakes, that a little positive variance and he walks with mid 4 or 5 figures, you generally see the floor people err on the side of caution.....way on the side of caution. In other words just try to get through their day with as little hassle as possible.

And by the way, when a pit critter 86's a player, there is paperwork involved. He has to file a report, stating that a skill check was completed and the player was an actual threat. And someone is likely to overlook that report and double check the skill check and be sure that Mr. Pit critter didn't just toss a good customer. So yeah, there is almost more incentive for the floor to look the other way and do nothing. You really want to make the option available to them and that is where playing short sessions and mid level stakes that are better tolerated come in to play.

[Alan Mendelson]

You didn't mention progressive jackpots tableplay. You made a blanket statement.

Yes, progressive jackpots over and above the casino base payoff come from the players.

Next time be clear.

But all players whether they are blackjack, craps, video poker, slots, roulette, Paigow are playing against the casino.