Kiosk Game Randomness/Legality

[Guy Incognito]

So I wandered into a new casino to check out their games/promotions. They happened to be running one that day where you earn XXX points and get X swipes at the kiosk.

With each swipe, you get to pick from a row of cards, and when your prize is revealed, the prizes you "would" have won if you had picked differently are also revealed.

Typically the prizes revealed are a small number of comp points, a large number of comp points, and three freeplay amounts.

I've played the game 9 times, and come up empty on the freeplay prize every time.

Curious, I relayed my bad luck to the cashier, and she said that she "rarely sees anyone cash a freeplay amount".

So if the freeplay prizes listed in the reveal aren't actually what you would have gotten had you picked that card, is this even legal?

[Tasha]

So I wandered into a new casino to check out their games/promotions. They happened to be running one that day where you earn XXX points and get X swipes at the kiosk.

With each swipe, you get to pick from a row of cards, and when your prize is revealed, the prizes you "would" have won if you had picked differently are also revealed.

Typically the prizes revealed are a small number of comp points, a large number of comp points, and three freeplay amounts.

I've played the game 9 times, and come up empty on the freeplay prize every time.

Curious, I relayed my bad luck to the cashier, and she said that she "rarely sees anyone cash a freeplay amount".

So if the freeplay prizes listed in the reveal aren't actually what you would have gotten had you picked that card, is this even legal?

I noticed that ALMOST EVERY TIME I swiped at the kiosk I only got $5. I got $15 like only once. I suspect that it was predetermined to give me only $5 and I got lucky one day to get $15.

[Alan Mendelson]

I remember Dan writing about this sometime in the past. I hope he comments. I don't know if these promotions are regulated or not but the NGC has some broad rules about fairness which I'm sure would cover these things. The real question is are specific odds or number of prizes advertised? If they are then the casino must live up to them.

[Guy Incognito]

I noticed that ALMOST EVERY TIME I swiped at the kiosk I only got $5. I got $15 like only once. I suspect that it was predetermined to give me only $5 and I got lucky one day to get $15.

This is a different casino; there were no 5/15 prizes at this one.

I remember Dan writing about this sometime in the past. I hope he comments. I don't know if these promotions are regulated or not but the NGC has some broad rules about fairness which I'm sure would cover these things. The real question is are specific odds or number of prizes advertised? If they are then the casino must live up to them.

I don't believe they are advertised, they're just "revealed" when you select a card, which would imply that you would have gotten that prize had you chosen differently.

[kewlJ]

Ok, I think I can answer this question. There was a blackjack game about a year ago at Sunset Station and I believe somewhere on the lower strip (maybe MGM). This game has a side bet, $1, and if you received a blackjack, you got to push a button that spun a wheel with various prizes. I am going by memory, but lets say the wheel had 12 amounts, and they ranged from $5 to $500 (maybe even $1000, I forget), with several of these higher denominations.

So by the math, you should get a blackjack 1 every 21 hands or so. So for an average cost of $21 you got to push the button to spin the wheel in which the prizes averaged an amount much higher than $21. So on the surface this appeared to be +EV and pretty significant +EV.

So I played for a couple days and noticed that almost every spin, mine and other players received $5 or $10. And occasional $25, but I saw none of the bigger prizes come up. So I asked the pit guys and it was explained that the prizes were not weighted equally. While there were 12 or 10 or whatever it was different prizes, There were actually hundreds of the $5 prizes, and $10 prizes and only 1 of the much larger prizes. So whatever random generator they were using, your real odds to get say $500 might be 1 in 1000, not the 1 in 10 or 1 in 12 represented on the wheel.

This seemed very wrong to me. Deceptive, misleading, dishonest. BUT if it passed Gaming commission....well whatever.

So I am sure the exact same concept is used on the promotion. If they allowed it on actual games on the floor, I presume they allow it for promotions. While the kiosk shows 6 or 9 possible prizes (after the fact), they are not all weighted equally. Your chances of getting the small amount are much larger, maybe 100x larger than getting one of the bigger prizes.

BTW, those wheel BJ side bet games are no longer at either location and I don't recall seeing them at any other locations. Maybe Gaming did shut them down (quietly).

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj, why do you think weighted results are dishonest? I'm sure that at some point in your life you played reel slots. Those games have weighted results. There may be only 12 symbols on each reel but the combinations are weighted.

Now if its an actual physical wheel that you spin that can't be weighted. And I'm sure you understand the difference.

It doesn't surprise me that if you had ten choices on a kiosk screen that all ten were either losers or minimal prizes. And I also think that some players based on some formula based on their play might have better choices than others.

I don't think that's deceptive or unfair.

I think kiosk games are simply another type of comp based on play.

[Guy Incognito]

It seems deceptive to me if they're revealing a prize behind a card that didn't actually exist, had you picked that card. But I have no idea whether or not this particular deception violates gaming law.

[kewlJ]

Now if its an actual physical wheel that you spin that can't be weighted. And I'm sure you understand the difference.

In the case of the blackjack game it WAS an actual physical wheel. If you received a blackjack while playing the $1 side bet, you were handed a big red button, similar to those big buttons that Staples used in their commercials for several years. So you push the button and the wheel spins. The wheel looks to have 10 or 12 landing points, but those are not the real odds. Where the wheel stops is actually determined by a whatever random number generator they were using. So the wheel spin was actually for show.

[kewlJ]

It seems deceptive to me if they're revealing a prize behind a card that didn't actually exist, had you picked that card. But I have no idea whether or not this particular deception violates gaming law.

It exists. There IS a $500 or whatever the bigger amount is...prize. And someone probably won it. But the chance of getting it are not the 1 in 9 that it looks like, because they are weighted differently.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj the physical wheel I referred to is one you actually spin with your hand.

Your wheel is similar to a slot machine with weighted results.

Slot machines have jackpot symbols for show. LOL

[Alan Mendelson]

Red Rock has a kiosk game that runs several days a week.

To play it, you need $10 coin in.

It wasn't hard to figure out that the smallest prize was 10,000 points which is:

1. $10 free play
2. $10 dining credit
3. $10 cash back

Some other prizes are available. I was thrilled the other day to get $20 dining credit. Sometimes I get a $15 dining credit.

There is one grand prize of $10,000. I've never seen a winner advertised.

For the most part the kiosk game is just to get people in the door hoping theyll spend more than $10.

[kewlJ]

Red Rock has a kiosk game that runs several days a week.

To play it, you need $10 coin in.

It wasn't hard to figure out that the smallest prize was 10,000 points which is:

1. $10 free play
2. $10 dining credit
3. $10 cash back

Some other prizes are available. I was thrilled the other day to get $20 dining credit. Sometimes I get a $15 dining credit.

There is one grand prize of $10,000. I've never seen a winner advertised.

For the most part the kiosk game is just to get people in the door hoping theyll spend more than $10.

This is exactly what Guy was talking about. I am familiar with the station properties weekend kiosk games (10$ in to play). But after you make your selection of the 6 or 9 choices and your prize is revealed they will show a prize behind the other 5 or 8 selections that you didn't pick and one of those prizes you didn't pick is always the top prize, misleading people to think if they had picked that selection they would have won that larger prize, when in fact they would have won the exact same prize and the larger prize would have shown up on one of the other unselected options.

So you don't think that is dishonest and misleading? No....I guess YOU wouldn't. lol You are the King of dishonest and misleading.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't recall seeing a game where the options not chosen are revealed to you. But Dan wrote about that.

No, I don't think it's deceptive. It's about as deceptive as a Buffalo Stampede game that keeps showing between plays a screen full of Buffalo's representing the million dollar jackpot.

Are you going to tell us that's deceptive?

[AxelWolf]

From my understanding during slot bonus rounds if they show what you would have gotten after the fact it is supposed to be random.

But for some reason, they don't treat bonus wheels (like on wheel of fortune) the same.

Obviously, promo Kiosks don't need to run by the same rules.

A side bet where you have to make a wager SHOULD be fair IMO.

[mickeycrimm]

Weighted random has been around for a long time. Take a three reel slot machine with 22 physical stops on it. One stop on each reel has the main symbol and you have to hit all three on the center line to get the jackpot. If they weren't virtual reels, like the old days, the frequency would be
:
22X22X22 = 10,648.

But by assigning multiple numbers in an RNG to each stop, except the main symbol stop, you can stretch the odds out on the main jackpot to whatever you want it to be. With the 10,648 frequency there was only so much money casinos could offer in the main jackpot. But that all changed with the RNG. Now jackpots can be in the millions while there are still just 22 physical stops on the reels.

[mickeycrimm]

Giving stuff away for free (a gift) on kiosks in not considered gambling so the casinos can do anything they want.

[dannyj]

Now if its an actual physical wheel that you spin that can't be weighted. And I'm sure you understand the difference.

If you received a blackjack while playing the $1 side bet, you were handed a big red button, similar to those big buttons that Staples used in their commercials for several years

Yes, like the red reset button Hillary carried over to Russia.

[Dan Druff]

Giving stuff away for free (a gift) on kiosks in not considered gambling so the casinos can do anything they want.

Close, but not 100% true.

Casinos are not allowed to rig promotions for people, for example. So let's say you enter a casino drawing for $1,000,000, but it doesn't cost you a penny to do so. Let's say the drawing was rigged so a whale will win the $1,000,000 for certain. This would be a gaming violation, and casinos have been fined for this practice in the past.

However, drawings are often semi-rigged, as there are various legal loopholes allowing this. For example, they could award a lot of extra entries to a drawing for every dollar gambled (legal -- and vastly favoring high rollers), or they can simply give the high rollers a ton of free entries up front (quasi-legal).

But back to this situation.

I agree with Guy Incognito and kewlJ that the practice of allowing a player to pick a covered prize, almost assuredly awarding them something small, and then falsely showing a big prize under the prize the player DIDN'T pick, is HIGHLY unethical.

Unfortunately, it is probably not illegal. Provided that the promotion is not actually rigged to give zero chance at the big prizes, any misleading, "This is what you would have won had you picked this one" screens are likely considered irrelevant, as they do not affect the actual odds of winning.

I feel they are highly unethical because they make the customer believe that he was a hair away from winning something big, and it might encourage him to gamble a lot more, feeling that he was "so close" to scoring that large prize.

As Alan mentioned, I've run into this BS before (I forget where -- it's been years, perhaps Rincon), but I just laughed it off and told myself that this is one of the reasons I enjoy APing against casinos.