Challenge to Singer / Argentino

[kewlJ]

I know people who have multiple businesses and file multiple Schedule Cs each year. For example, the freelance cameraman has a Schedule C for that business and he sells at flea markets and on eBay under a different Schedule C.

Neither had to be a primary source of income. If you have any doubts call your own tax professional or the IRS. It's silly to argue the point here when a call to the IRS will get you the right answer.

Sometimes there's such a fuss over so little.

Alan, mickeycrimm is correct. The Internal revenue laws involving setting up a business involving gambling revenue are different than normal rules and requirements, as the IRS specifically didn't want part-time incomes to qualify as "professional gambler". If you don't believe me, check with any knowledgeable tax consultant.

[Alan Mendelson]

Better yet, I'm going to call the IRS. My question will be "must your gambling income be your Primary income in order to file a Schedule C."

Do we all agree that is the issue?

[redietz]

I know people who have multiple businesses and file multiple Schedule Cs each year. For example, the freelance cameraman has a Schedule C for that business and he sells at flea markets and on eBay under a different Schedule C.

Neither had to be a primary source of income. If you have any doubts call your own tax professional or the IRS. It's silly to argue the point here when a call to the IRS will get you the right answer.

Sometimes there's such a fuss over so little.

Alan, mickeycrimm is correct. The Internal revenue laws involving setting up a business involving gambling revenue are different than normal rules and requirements, as the IRS specifically didn't want part-time incomes to qualify as "professional gambler". If you don't believe me, check with any knowledgeable tax consultant.

I just said exactly that. Of course, Mr. Mendelson decided he's correct. He's like the George Costanza of gambling. Now, Mr. Mendelson wouldn't be mentioning this stuff because he knows Argentino had a full-time job during his professional gambler years, right? Nawwww, Mr. Mendelson wouldn't have any reason to think that, right?

[redietz]

Better yet, I'm going to call the IRS. My question will be "must your gambling income be your Primary income in order to file a Schedule C."

Do we all agree that is the issue?

No, it's not the issue. Not even close.

[Alan Mendelson]

I did a Google search and found this high in the search results:

https://www.journalofaccountancy.com...-gamblers.html

I think these are the key words for kewlj and redietz and mickeycrimm:

" In Groetzinger, 480 U.S. 23 (1987), the Supreme Court established the professional gambler standard: "If one's gambling activity is pursued full time, in good faith, and with regularity, to the production of income for a livelihood, and is not a mere hobby, it is a trade or business." The burden is on the gambler to prove this status."

What is full time? What is full time for a Vegas player who commutes from Arizona?

What about a professional poker player who only plays in a dozen big money tournaments in a year? Is he not entitled to file a Schedule C because he doesn't sit at tables 40 hours a week?

[MisterV]

Well now alan, that depends on whether your hypothetical poker player has a job other than playing poker.

[kewlJ]

So, Rob. Are you going to accept the challenge or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If I were able to get my tax returns from 2000-2009 the answer would be yes of course. But I'd make it for the $984,000 I won net during that time period---just as I did with that other homo Fezzik, when he and the fabled HP gang went down in a smoke that still lingers over LV.

I'm surprised mickey. Why aren't you asking the same question of kew over my physical challenge? That tells me you would lose such a challenge to me also and you're afraid of it, just like him! C'mon, at 69 yrs. old I can't be THAT good, right?

I see we are back to $900K. Amazing how half a million disappeared from the equation in a matter of minutes.

But that is ok.....I accept the figure $984,000. I will contact Bob Nersesian and have him draw up papers that you and your attorney can agree to. We will then schedule an appointment, hopefully immediately, (like next week) with Tompkins and Peters at which time we will both deposit certified checks into an escrow account and get this ball rolling. I am confident Tompkins and Peters will be able tp retrieve your tax records through the IRS, since they will be doing so on your behalf.

In light of the recently bumped "Singer at bat" thread, I want posted confirmation from the mighty Rob that he is agreeing to these terms before I proceed. Time to put up or shut up Argentino.

[Alan Mendelson]

Well now alan, that depends on whether your hypothetical poker player has a job other than playing poker.

Let's say you were a judge in the federal Tax Court. A poker player says he plays in six $25,000 tournaments a year and cashes in two of them for a net profit of $15,000.

That's $165,000 of winnings vs $150,000 of entry fees .

Between tournaments he flips burgers for $15,000 a year and is given a W2 by his employer.

You're the judge: can he file a Schedule C for playing poker?

[MisterV]

As burger flipping is his primary (i.e., regular) income, I'd vote "hobby," so no Schedule "C" for him.

see: informative article on point: https://www.journalofaccountancy.com...-gamblers.html

[redietz]

Mr. Mendelson is just playing; I think he knows better. Not only that, there's an eerie silence on Argentino or Mr. Mendelson verifying that Argentino was not employed anywhere when he was a professional video poker player. See, if Argentino was employed elsewhere, that eliminates the likelihood of his filing as an individual professional gambler. It leaves him with the option of starting up a Gambling Entity, but there are a number of consequences if that is what he did:

1) He has never mentioned starting a Gambling Entity.
2) Nothing the Gambling Entity did or accomplished can be attributed solely to Argentino.
3) There is no way to actually know, at this point, who was involved in the Gambling Entity.

I know as much about taxes as I do about The Flying Nun, but it has slowly, frighteningly dawned on me that that is more than most here.

Look, rub two neurons together and use your brains. Think about what a conversation would look like between somebody who lost five straight years playing video poker, offsetting big W2Gs with losses, who then decided after hitting a couple of big jackpots one calendar year that he was a professional gambler or that his Gambling Entity could reasonably be expected to show a profit. Gambling Entities are held to a different standard than most businesses. You have to demonstrate a likelihood of success, some model, some math, that makes long-term profits at least possible.

IRS Agent: So, I see you lost five years in a row to the tune of $450,000.
New Pro: Yes, but I'm now a professional.
IRS Agent: How's that? What's different?
New Pro: Well, I came up with a couple of new systems. I'm the only one who knows them. You wouldn't understand the math.
IRS Agent: Well, sir, that sounds reasonable to me. Let's give you a "professional" imprimatur.

Much of this origin story is just silly. If you're the face of a Gambling Entity, it's the same as heading a Pick Six conglomerate at the track or hosting folks who want to play slot machines on live feeds via other's contributions. There are myriad ways to maneuver money into one's own pocket via tax takeouts from the pools and then balancing wins and losses and all that. It's fifth grade scamming, but it probably still works today. Does anyone realize (except monet) how the suggestion of a 50/50 split with the Gambling Entity administrator deciding exactly when to stop a session -- does anyone realize how that opens the door to half a dozen different freerolls and tax scams?

Monet, speak up, man.

I'm busy with football, so use your neurons and ask, "If I were setting up tax trickeration and 50/50 freeroll scams, how would I do it?" The answers will come to you. Just pretend you're J.R.Ewing (yeah, I'm old).

If I get a chance later this month, I'll spell out how a Gambling Entity can provide cover for all sorts of nonsense, and how some tax manipulations can work. Regnis and monet both likely know this stuff better than me.

[Deech]

Well now alan, that depends on whether your hypothetical poker player has a job other than playing poker.

Let's say you were a judge in the federal Tax Court. A poker player says he plays in six $25,000 tournaments a year and cashes in two of them for a net profit of $15,000.

That's $165,000 of winnings vs $150,000 of entry fees .

Between tournaments he flips burgers for $15,000 a year and is given a W2 by his employer.

You're the judge: can he file a Schedule C for playing poker?

I can actually answer this.

I work for myself as an engineer and work part time as a "carpenter" for my buddy. He issues a w-2 for my work (we are so above board that I have my own personal insurance which is expensive).

That second job of gambling made a profit, probability with documented earnings. Yes, you should claim and I believe you can use Schedule C,

I use two separate Schedule C's. I will not act as an expert if gambling is a second source of income.

Anyhow, I file two different Schedule C forms. Yes, ultimately I will take all my expenses out of the job that pays my 98% of my salary, but both jobs are listed on separate Schedule c's.

[mickeycrimm]

Why would you, a proven liar, coward, needy nut, and social dropout, ever even come close to telling yourself that anybody at all believes anything you say about yourself? You offer no proof of anything other than how badly you write and post, how you are in such DESPERATE need of relevance after the punishment wizard dished out on your sorry ass, and how easily rattled you get when anyone with a REAL name questions the bs you say about yourself. Then you get so upset with us that you can't help yourself tell obvious whoppers about each of us.

There now can be no question as to the struggles you must constantly go thru. If anyone saw the house your mommy was trying to sell they'd understand the whole charade. And here's a flash--swimming pools are a dime a dozen in LV. Why did you use that as some type of hi-class living point? Answer: because your inexperience in life preceeds you, and your fantasy about being a professional bj player who never gets noticed betting up when the counts go positive, has been a crumbling experience.

So, Rob. Are you going to accept the challenge or not? A simple yes or no will suffice.

If I were able to get my tax returns from 2000-2009 the answer would be yes of course. But I'd make it for the $984,000 I won net during that time period---just as I did with that other homo Fezzik, when he and the fabled HP gang went down in a smoke that still lingers over LV.

I'm surprised mickey. Why aren't you asking the same question of kew over my physical challenge? That tells me you would lose such a challenge to me also and you're afraid of it, just like him! C'mon, at 69 yrs. old I can't be THAT good, right?

This is the same old shit Argentino pulls to get out of every bet. Change the conditions. Keep changing them until the other party gets tired of it and goes away.

[mickeycrimm]

Mickeycrimm why don't you post them. If they changed and I'm wrong then I'll say so. If the rules changed I'll admit it.

From Tax Help For Gamblers by Jean Scott and Marissa Chien:

"....filing as a professional gambler using Schedule C has its own set of problems. First, the IRS imposes rigid requirements on anyone wanting to claim gambling as his "business," although these are not all set in stone; individual situations are considered. However, court cases have established that your intent must be to make money as a PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME; it must not be just a hobby."

By Rob's own words he went to the casino one day a week for an average of four hours. And he has said he had other income plus his wife's income. Do you really think the IRS would consider Rob's limited activity in casinos a profession and his primary source of income....especially considering that his gambling activity would not generate tax dollars to the IRS?

More dumb mickey assertions.

When there's some years where a million or millions of dollars in W2G's are involved, let's hear exactly how the IRS is inclined to believe one is not the professional gambler they file as. I'm waiting mickey..... And can you show me where it says how much time is required to be spent winning/playing and how they'd be able to match that up to how much time I played? Oh and you forgot this--I drove 4-13 hours each way among all locations around the state. And, I spent hours training, writing, and doing things a pro gambler/writer/consultant does.

You're so dumb.

So what? That ex Mayor of San Diego took a billion dollars in W-2G's on her way to losing her fortune....and never tried to file as a professional.

[mickeycrimm]

It's silly to argue the point here when a call to the IRS will get you the right answer.

This is the most laughable line you've ever written. Talk to ten different IRS agents and you will get ten different answers.

[mickeycrimm]

Now we know why Rob went to the casino only one day a week. He went on his day off from work.

[Rob.Singer]

It gets confusing when the clowns get envious.

I'm trying to figure out why redietz now wants it to be that I was also working when I played VP professionally. Oh wait that's right--he needs to keep making it up so I won't bring up how he solicited me for money until I exposed his tactics here.

Kew you never read with comprehension. My official VP winnings from 2000-2009 was $984k. Those were my years filing as a professional gambler. File that somewhere upstairs or do as redietz does and gives his stats to his queer friend from Boeing in Calif. for safe keeping. My total VP win from over all years is about $1.5mil. Are you still shaking?

mickey why keep lying when you're down? If there were a way to do this challenge I'd do it. The idiot doesn't understand (and apparently has the dumbest "expert tax atty" in the city) who can't find the regs we all found a few years ago right here--that you cannot get tax return copies back further than 4 years in some cases and 7 in others. Make sense yet? And there has been no changes. I said if there actually were a way to have this bet I would want it for $984k. The problem is you, he, and a few other of the uneducated here can't figure out that records that old are unobtainable. He knew that when he started this nonsense.

But....when are you gonna talk the little twit into accepting my physical challenge.

[Rob.Singer]

From Tax Help For Gamblers by Jean Scott and Marissa Chien:

"....filing as a professional gambler using Schedule C has its own set of problems. First, the IRS imposes rigid requirements on anyone wanting to claim gambling as his "business," although these are not all set in stone; individual situations are considered. However, court cases have established that your intent must be to make money as a PRIMARY SOURCE OF INCOME; it must not be just a hobby."

By Rob's own words he went to the casino one day a week for an average of four hours. And he has said he had other income plus his wife's income. Do you really think the IRS would consider Rob's limited activity in casinos a profession and his primary source of income....especially considering that his gambling activity would not generate tax dollars to the IRS?

More dumb mickey assertions.

When there's some years where a million or millions of dollars in W2G's are involved, let's hear exactly how the IRS is inclined to believe one is not the professional gambler they file as. I'm waiting mickey..... And can you show me where it says how much time is required to be spent winning/playing and how they'd be able to match that up to how much time I played? Oh and you forgot this--I drove 4-13 hours each way among all locations around the state. And, I spent hours training, writing, and doing things a pro gambler/writer/consultant does.

You're so dumb.

So what? That ex Mayor of San Diego took a billion dollars in W-2G's on her way to losing her fortune....and never tried to file as a professional.

Dumb. And dumber.

[regnis]

It is the dark hole of taxes. How does one qualify as a professional gambler. The rules, regulations, and writings are vague, and the case law is all over the place. The first misconception is that you have to show a profit--some say 2 of 7 years. That might help but it is really only a minor factor. The facts of each case will dictate, but the most important factor is to show an intent to operate for profit. It need not be your sole income but if it is your sole source of income that helps.

How do you show an intent to operate for profit? In the case of a horseplayer, there is the time and effort put into handicapping. Subscriptions to the daily racing form, charts, race replays, etc. These unfortunately are not easy to prove. The sheer volume of wagers and the number of days that you wager are factors. Now with tournaments almost daily you can more easily prove time invested. Statements from racetrack management can be used.

Whatever the type of gambling that you are trying to prove is professional, similar evidence is needed. But the essence of the proof in court is really time. What kind of time is involved. Secondarily, do your actions seem to be that of a pro. Are you doing the right things to make a good faith attempt at a profit.

So how can you show enough time in multiple businesses? I had that problem in years in which I both gambled (horses) and practiced law. I was able to show that I operated both with the intent to profit, although it looked to the IRS like I never slept. Later, when I had a number of years where my sole income was gambling, I was questioned as to what happened to my "legitimate" income.

In Singer's case, I assume he lumped the whole VP, writing, teaching, etc. into his Schedule C as one "business". In horse racing, the same thing is done where one both owns and races horses and gambles on them. It gives the look of an intent to profit and allows for the type of deductions that Rob has claimed.

It is not for everyone. You must be organized and structured and just give the appearance of a professional. I keep a journal and all losing tickets in organized boxes. The IRS can match the losing tickets daily to my journal. I'll never forget the agent's face on my first audit when I dropped that box of organized losing tickets in his lap. I have about 30 years of those boxes in my basement.

[redietz]

It gets confusing when the clowns get envious.

I'm trying to figure out why redietz now wants it to be that I was also working when I played VP professionally. Oh wait that's right--he needs to keep making it up so I won't bring up how he solicited me for money until I exposed his tactics here.

Kew you never read with comprehension. My official VP winnings from 2000-2009 was $984k. Those were my years filing as a professional gambler. File that somewhere upstairs or do as redietz does and gives his stats to his queer friend from Boeing in Calif. for safe keeping. My total VP win from over all years is about $1.5mil. Are you still shaking?

mickey why keep lying when you're down? If there were a way to do this challenge I'd do it. The idiot doesn't understand (and apparently has the dumbest "expert tax atty" in the city) who can't find the regs we all found a few years ago right here--that you cannot get tax return copies back further than 4 years in some cases and 7 in others. Make sense yet? And there has been no changes. I said if there actually were a way to have this bet I would want it for $984k. The problem is you, he, and a few other of the uneducated here can't figure out that records that old are unobtainable. He knew that when he started this nonsense.

But....when are you gonna talk the little twit into accepting my physical challenge.

Uh oh, now "total VP winnings" are 1.5 million. And here we thought it was "net winnings." Well, that does change things a bit, wouldn't you say? Kind of like those stats during the WSOP broadcasts -- WSOP earnings $1.5 million, but they don't mention the net.

Mr. Mendelson, it turns out, could really use that 1K donation if you provide those texts and phone number where I solicited you. Why don't you be a dear and help out an old friend?

And finally, while I may be gay in 40% of all alternative universes, I can assure you GaryT is not. He's been married for 40 years with two lovely daughters. But I'm flattered that you think he might be attracted to me. Thanks, sweetie.

[Rob.Singer]

It gets confusing when the clowns get envious.

I'm trying to figure out why redietz now wants it to be that I was also working when I played VP professionally. Oh wait that's right--he needs to keep making it up so I won't bring up how he solicited me for money until I exposed his tactics here.

Kew you never read with comprehension. My official VP winnings from 2000-2009 was $984k. Those were my years filing as a professional gambler. File that somewhere upstairs or do as redietz does and gives his stats to his queer friend from Boeing in Calif. for safe keeping. My total VP win from over all years is about $1.5mil. Are you still shaking?

mickey why keep lying when you're down? If there were a way to do this challenge I'd do it. The idiot doesn't understand (and apparently has the dumbest "expert tax atty" in the city) who can't find the regs we all found a few years ago right here--that you cannot get tax return copies back further than 4 years in some cases and 7 in others. Make sense yet? And there has been no changes. I said if there actually were a way to have this bet I would want it for $984k. The problem is you, he, and a few other of the uneducated here can't figure out that records that old are unobtainable. He knew that when he started this nonsense.

But....when are you gonna talk the little twit into accepting my physical challenge.

Uh oh, now "total VP winnings" are 1.5 million. And here we thought it was "net winnings." Well, that does change things a bit, wouldn't you say? Kind of like those stats during the WSOP broadcasts -- WSOP earnings $1.5 million, but they don't mention the net.

Mr. Mendelson, it turns out, could really use that 1K donation if you provide those texts and phone number where I solicited you. Why don't you be a dear and help out an old friend?

And finally, while I may be gay in 40% of all alternative universes, I can assure you GaryT is not. He's been married for 40 years with two lovely daughters. But I'm flattered that you think he might be attracted to me. Thanks, sweetie.

Red when you say these corny things you only confirm how you're a handicapper scammer in the first place.

Total vp winnings is obviously lifetime vp winnings so others don't look as dumb as you.