El Cortez automatic shuffle machine cheating

[Moses]

KJ: I've been surrounded twice in 8 years. It is quite an experience. I could really talk trash about a casino or two. But, quite frankly, I'd just as soon not have a couple of those big ole' boys eyes on me. The only things that surprises me is when a day goes by that I don't say to myself, "man, I've never seen that one before."

We are in a casino with hookers, drug dealers, ex con's, homeless APs, and God know who else. It's one big con trying to make a buck after another. Since this is not Bingo in a church basement, there may well be some dirty deeds going on. Ya think? Rise above and overcome or don't play.

There are two kinds of dumb. The guy that gets naked and runs in the snow and barks at the moon. Or the guy that does it in a casino. The first one don't matter. The 2nd one the casino is kinda forced to deal with. No?

[LarryS]

i ask this as a novice...is there a way for the 10s to be shuffled to one side of the deck as well as being clumped together so that if there is a usual cut of the cards, the 10s never see the light of day.....and if they do like axel says there is alot of ties.

[kewlJ]

While I can no longer speak about where this case is at the moment, other than to say that it is moving forward, I do want to respond to 2 responses in the 'mirror' discussion at WoV.


Teliot, (Eliot Jacabson) made and posted a video attempting to debunk my claim. Apparently Elliot didn't read the initial post of this discussion, because he immediately talked about the high card clump being at the beginning of the shoe. I didn't say that!. I thought I made it clear the high card clump can come out at anytime. All the machine can do is put the high card clump together. It doesn't determine where the clump is in the deck. The player cutting is the one that determines that.

Good grief, if every shoe started out with the high card clump coming out at the beginning as Eliot somehow jumped to the conclusion....Even I could have figured out how to beat that. I would have just played the high card clump and left after the high cards came out and the count was negative. Or started the shoe betting $300 and then wagered $10 after the clump. BUT that is not how it works, you don't know when the clump is coming out.


Next, Zcore, a casino employee and rabid Casino defender at WoV, and moderator BBB emphatically state that the "chip" needed for this clumping feature is not in the machine as it leaves Shufflemaster. BBB admits someone, maybe at the casino level could insert the chip. Ok, I am not a tech guy, so I don't know the ins and out. I suspect this might be Shufflemasters way of disassociating themselves from blame. "That availability is not operational when the machine leaves us". But the ability is there, with this chip. Why would they make a product that EVEN has that ability, being it would be illegal in almost EVERY jurisdiction.

Maybe the fact that the casino would need to acquire the chip and have someone put it in for this feature to become functional, is why there has not been widespread abuse so far. But I will tell you this much, I have encountered it at 2 different casinos so far. This El Cortez is my second encounter with it. The first was a small casino on boulder highway, oddly also with the initials of EC (but not related in anyway). During my encounter, which I didn't document, I similarly notice the high card clumping, as my results turned negative over a period of time. However, at this property, the pit guy rather blatantly entered the code right in front of me, and then the clumping magically began to occur, rather than have the feature on all the time.

So at this earlier property, one day I asked the pit guy (always the same pit guy) what that was about. He had some BS line about a diagnostic test to be sure the machine was working. I informed him that I thought they were cheating and the machine was stacking the cards. That was the last time I played BJ at that casino. But in return visits to play video poker and what not, I noticed that particular table and ASM, disappeared from the gaming floor shortly after I made my accusation. That was several years ago, so I sort of dismissed it as an isolated issue, until I noticed the same exact scenarios playing out again at El Cortez.

So let's just say that BBB and Zcore are correct, that the machine doesn't leave Shufflemaster with this ability without this chip inserted. Ok so how hard is it to get the chip? How common? Well I have a pit friend at who confirmed the machines at his property have the feature available (although he claims they don't use it) He supplied me with the code, when I was able to get my hands on a machine. And it's awful funny (big coincidence) that the machine I just happened to get my hands on, purchased privately, from half way around the world, just happened to have this chip installed and uses the exact same code.

I think this chip is Shufflemasters way of distancing themselves. They knew this would one day come to light....and it will shortly, and they wanted to be able to say, that chip is not installed by us. I only hope the gaming commission or Judge, depending on where this case ends up, asks why they built in a cheating availability to begin with...chip or no chip?

[kewlJ]

While I can no longer speak about where this case is at the moment, other than to say that it is moving forward, I do want to respond to 2 responses in the 'mirror' discussion at WoV.


Teliot, (Eliot Jacabson) made and posted a video attempting to debunk my claim. Apparently Elliot didn't read the initial post of this discussion, because he immediately talked about the high card clump being at the beginning of the shoe. I didn't say that!. I thought I made it clear the high card clump can come out at anytime. All the machine can do is put the high card clump together. It doesn't determine where the clump is in the deck. The player cutting is the one that determines that.

Good grief, if every shoe started out with the high card clump coming out at the beginning as Eliot somehow jumped to the conclusion....Even I could have figured out how to beat that. I would have just played the high card clump and left after the high cards came out and the count was negative. Or started the shoe betting $300 and then wagered $10 after the clump. BUT that is not how it works, you don't know when the clump is coming out.


Next, Zcore, a casino employee and rabid Casino defender at WoV, and moderator BBB emphatically state that the "chip" needed for this clumping feature is not in the machine as it leaves Shufflemaster. BBB admits someone, maybe at the casino level could insert the chip. Ok, I am not a tech guy, so I don't know the ins and out. I suspect this might be Shufflemasters way of disassociating themselves from blame. "That availability is not operational when the machine leaves us". But the ability is there, with this chip. Why would they make a product that EVEN has that ability, being it would be illegal in almost EVERY jurisdiction.

Maybe the fact that the casino would need to acquire the chip and have someone put it in for this feature to become functional, is why there has not been widespread abuse so far. But I will tell you this much, I have encountered it at 2 different casinos so far. This El Cortez is my second encounter with it. The first was a small casino on boulder highway, oddly also with the initials of EC (but not related in anyway). During my encounter, which I didn't document, I similarly notice the high card clumping, as my results turned negative over a period of time. However, at this property, the pit guy rather blatantly entered the code right in front of me, and then the clumping magically began to occur, rather than have the feature on all the time.

So at this earlier property, one day I asked the pit guy (always the same pit guy) what that was about. He had some BS line about a diagnostic test to be sure the machine was working. I informed him that I thought they were cheating and the machine was stacking the cards. That was the last time I played BJ at that casino. But in return visits to play video poker and/or eat at the restuarants, I notived that particular table and ASM, disappeared from the gaming floor shortly after I made my accusation. That was several years ago, so I sort of dismissed it as an isolated issue, until I noticed the same exact scenarios playing out again at El Cortez.

So let's just say that BBB and Zcore are correct, that the machine doesn't leave Shufflemaster with this ability without this chip inserted. Ok so how hard is it to get the chip? How common? Well I have a pit friend at who confirmed the machines at his property have the feature available (although he claims they don't use it) He supplied me with the code, when I was able to get my hands on a machine. And it's awful funny (big coincidence) that the machine I just happened to get my hands on, purchased privately, from half way around the world, just happened to have this chip installed and uses the exact same code.

I think this chip is Shufflemasters way of distancing themselves. They knew this would one day come to light....and it will shortly, and they wanted to be able to say, that chip is not installed by us. I only hope the gaming commission or Judge, depending on where this case ends up, asks why they built in a cheating availability to begin with...chip or no chip?

[Mission146]

I think this chip is Shufflemasters way of distancing themselves. They knew this would one day come to light....and it will shortly, and they wanted to be able to say, that chip is not installed by us. I only hope the gaming commission or Judge, depending on where this case ends up, asks why they built in a cheating availability to begin with...chip or no chip?

I think what they were trying to suggest is that a similar (but not the same) chip would have to be built and programmed in order for that to happen. In effect, the, "Cheating availability," is not built-in, but what Shufflemaster sends out can later be altered with a new chip so that it can cheat.

The, "Chip," really just contains the programming, so you'd be changing the programming of the thing. We know the ShuffleMaster version can rearrange the deck into the correct order, so that means that it can read the cards. Theoretically, with the right programming, you could make the physical device to whatever you want it to. You could have it arrange Ac, Ad, As, Ah, Kc, Kd, Ks, Kh...and so on...if you programmed it to do that.

So, that's what I think they're trying to say. If it's a different chip, Shufflemaster didn't build it to be able to cheat. It would essentially be a corrupted and altered version of what they did release, not being used for its intended purpose.

[Alan Mendelson]

Is there a picture of these machines on the Internet so we can see the buttons to enter a code? Has anyone ever seen a code entered on any shuffler?

[Mission146]

Is there a picture of these machines on the Internet so we can see the buttons to enter a code? Has anyone ever seen a code entered on any shuffler?

I don't know if it would count as a, "Code," but on carnival games, the dealer has to tell the machine how many people are playing so it deals the right number of cards in the right increments.

[kewlJ]

So, that's what I think they're trying to say. If it's a different chip, Shufflemaster didn't build it to be able to cheat. It would essentially be a corrupted and altered version of what they did release, not being used for its intended purpose.

WELL, then that chip or altered version is out there and becoming more readily available.

Regardless, my accusation really isn't against Shufflemaster. Where ever the chip comes from and whoever is responsible for inserting it, any casino using it knows about it and was a party to it.

I am NOT guessing at this. I was pretty sure for a while which is why I began accumulating data. But now, I now have a freaking machine in my possession that can do exactly what I suspected and quite frankly some other questionable and disturbing things.

And as bad as I feel about outing an AP play that some of my fellow AP's were exploiting, I do believe this has to be stopped now. It is cheating! and just because a few AP's are able to exploit it, the public shouldn't be unknowingly cheated like this.

[kewlJ]

Regardless, my accusation really isn't against Shufflemaster. Where ever the chip comes from and whoever is responsible for inserting it, any casino using it knows about it and was a party to it.

AND, I will bet you this will not be news to Gaming either. Oh they will act like this is the first they are hearing about it, but I bet they are well aware.....just haven't had to act as no complaint has been filed yet.

[Mission146]

And as bad as I feel about outing an AP play that some of my fellow AP's were exploiting, I do believe this has to be stopped now. It is cheating! and just because a few AP's are able to exploit it, the public shouldn't be unknowingly cheated like this.

Pick one! LOL

I was about to talk about it at WoV and then saw your one post that you were getting threats, and what have you, so you were going to stop talking about it. I figured that there was no need for me to mention it over there if you planned to stop talking about it anyway.

[kewlJ]

And as bad as I feel about outing an AP play that some of my fellow AP's were exploiting, I do believe this has to be stopped now. It is cheating! and just because a few AP's are able to exploit it, the public shouldn't be unknowingly cheated like this.

Pick one! LOL

I was about to talk about it at WoV and then saw your one post that you were getting threats, and what have you, so you were going to stop talking about it. I figured that there was no need for me to mention it over there if you planned to stop talking about it anyway.

For the record, I received one threat. IT was from someone claiming to be associated with Shufflemaster, But I am pretty sure it was a fellow AP. Now in addition, I have received some nasty comments from other AP's. Let's just say I am not that popular in certain circles of the AP community right now.

I don't know Mission. If it was a few days or week ago, and I hadn't said anything yet, and I knew what I know now, but didn't at the time, I would have definitely handled things differently. And I certainly wouldn't have spent serious money acquiring a mod4 ASM. I am pretty sure I can recoup that money though, plus I am learning some interesting things.

Anyway, give me a time machine and I would opt not be in this position. But I am. What's done is done.

[monet]

After reading the WoV Casino Cheating Blackjack Thread... it seems that lilredrooster is either KewlJ or they are very good friends or they just think exactly the same. BBB put lilredrooster in his place and lilredrooster turned into a great big Chicken!

One thing is obvious... these forums are Fucked Up and I need to boycott them but that is easier said than done. One of these days though... I'll get it.

LOL... now they moved the El Cortel Cheating Thread to The Disadvantage Forum where Voodoo, Progressions, Faulty Math, etc. are moved. LOL... just like they moved the I believe the El Cortel is Cheating Thread.


Quote From Norm...

Please stop this paranoid crap. If you post this again in the main forum, you will be banned.


LOL LOL LOL

[kewlJ]

After reading the WoV Casino Cheating Blackjack Thread... it seems that lilredrooster is either KewlJ or they are very good friends or they just think exactly the same. BBB put lilredrooster in his place and lilredrooster turned into a great big Chicken!

One thing is obvious... these forums are Fucked Up and I need to boycott them but that is easier said than done. One of these days though... I'll get it.

Nope, not me. Not anyone that I am aware of either. The few times I am forced to post as a sock, because of stupid politics of a site and the AP community, I go out of my way so people will know it is me.

[kewlJ]

There is something interesting that I have noticed. Since this topic has been picked up and discussed at several sites now, take a look at the members that argue that it is occurring. It is either people associated with the casino industry like a zcore (hardcore supporter), or associated with shufflemaster like Babs (not quite sure of her association), or mostly lower level or casual AP's or recreational gamblers. You don't see many of the top blackjack player AP's saying a word, do ya? Well except maybe to criticize me for bring it up?

[monet]

We are in a casino with hookers, drug dealers, ex con's, homeless APs, and God know who else. It's one big con trying to make a buck after another. Since this is not Bingo in a church basement, there may well be some dirty deeds going on. Ya think? Rise above and overcome or don't play.

Well Said... but try to get these Forums to understand or agree with this line of thinking... not possible!? Most of these guys think they can be surrounded by iniquity and keep those white suits clean. LOL... impossible. The individual is tainted either directly or indirectly in this Casino Lifestyle. These Fuckers actually think they are Honest Do Gooders of Society and what they are doing to make a living is Legit... Funniest Shit Ever!!

Plenty of dirty deeds going on in Church Bingo as well lol. Some churches have even rigged the game. The Church was always against Bingo or Gambling in general until they crunched the tax free numbers they could profit. When they figured out they could rig the games they had no choice. These sick bastards have gotten pretty bad selling coffee, food, books and everything else they can on church grounds. Church is supposed to be the house of the Lord where you can go worship and pray but those damn money changers have made it a house of iniquity. The individual is better off going to the mountain. Honestly, even if you do not believe in God or the Bible or whatever nobody can refute what was said long ago that Obedience is better than Sacrifice. Not that I am an example... my life is anything but. My problem is I know and see the blueprints but for some reason can not break ground to build the foundation. I am obviously ensnared by the enemy.

[monet]

There is something interesting that I have noticed. Since this topic has been picked up and discussed at several sites now, take a look at the members that argue that it is occurring. It is either people associated with the casino industry like a zcore (hardcore supporter), or associated with shufflemaster like Babs (not quite sure of her association), or mostly lower level or casual AP's or recreational gamblers. You don't see many of the top blackjack player AP's saying a word, do ya? Well except maybe to criticize me for bring it up?

As I have said before and I wasn't the first to think of this statement.

The only way not to get cheated is to learn how to cheat.

To think that the Casino isn't cheating is ludicrous. Everyone is constantly cheating and even if you thwart this ASM Clumping you will not even begin to scratch the surface as the Casino continues to cheat and the players continue to find exploits to cheat at. I certainly wouldn't want the heat or attention. I guess if you win your case you get FU money but that will bring on a whole mess of unforeseen problems. Of course some people will take the trade off. You have had some minor threats just from posting about this on the internet... imagine how crazy the threats will get as you continue down this rabbit hole!?

Will you have to prove that the Casino was aware meaning that if it was some rogue technicians will the Casino be held liable?

My own personal experience with some cheating... The Poker Rooms have stolen millions upon millions in Re-Buys through Poker Tournaments. Dealers have over raked or directly stolen money out of players pots in live games. Drawings have been rigged constantly. Some of these individuals have been caught and prosecuted but I never seen the players get any type of reimbursement?

[tableplay]

There is something interesting that I have noticed. Since this topic has been picked up and discussed at several sites now, take a look at the members that argue that it is occurring. It is either people associated with the casino industry like a zcore (hardcore supporter), or associated with shufflemaster like Babs (not quite sure of her association), or mostly lower level or casual AP's or recreational gamblers. You don't see many of the top blackjack player AP's saying a word, do ya? Well except maybe to criticize me for bring it up?

You're right KewlJ - it's a massive advantage play for those that can track the ten-clump.
Pure Speculation:The beginning of the ten-clump is low-betted (average clump size is determined prior with some low bet play through several shoes/decks). The end of the clump is high-betted. A BJ team taking up the whole table is used to ensure that the end of the ten-clump is captured by the Big Player(s) or, if you prefer, to ensure that the dealer is left with low cards (since the last of the ten-clump is taken by the BP) - with 3rd base laying down the black .

[Moses]

Monet. All very well said. I maybe one of few people who find peace in both a casino and a church. But I'm much more leary of the christians than the casinoites. At least you see the latter coming.

KJ: My simple rule is "don't look for trouble in a casino, it will find you soon enough." When it does, you'd best be ready. Quite frankly, I'm concerned about your well being this time. I picture Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles "you're messin with the wrong guy."

Coach Belly: Is it you? Is it really you? I should've got more playing time my junior year. Why all the sprints? Ever time I hear the words "on the line" I break into a sweat. Lol. Joking. All in fun.

Is MickyCrimm still train Rocky?

[Moses]

Monet. All very well said. I may be one of few people who find peace in both a casino and a church. But I'm much more leary of the christians than the casinoites. At least you see the latter coming.

KJ: My simple rule is "don't look for trouble in a casino, it will find you soon enough." When it does, you'd best be ready. Quite frankly, I'm concerned about your well being this time. I picture Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles "you're messin with the wrong guy."

Coach Belly: Is it you? Is it really you? I should've got more playing time my junior year. Why all the sprints? Everytime I hear the words "on the line" I break into a sweat. Lol. Joking. All in fun.

Is MickyCrimm still training Rocky?

[regnis]

Kewl--give me a heads up if any action is going to be taken so I can dump my Shuffle Master stock.