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Thread: Would Alan start folding AA in poker if he lost with it once?

  1. #1
    I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
    I beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.

    Thanks jbjb.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
    I beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.

    Thanks jbjb.
    You’re hurting my soul. He shoves, you fold and he wins what...one BB? Maybe he caught a read on you that told him you had complete junk and he wanted to try to get something for his aces. He was probably hoping you’d catch a lower pair or maybe some kind of draw that would have him in a superior position but with more money in.

    Anyway, there are plenty of reasons one might slow play pocket rockets.

    Were there any callers before it came around to him? If so, how many? That would make a pretty big difference.

    But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in. Hell, maybe you’ll try to steal it from me...that’d be nice.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
    I beat AA holding 9-2, but I was the big blind and the player with AA slow played. The flop came 929. I don't recall the turn and river but that's why you never slow play aces.

    Thanks jbjb.
    You’re hurting my soul. He shoves, you fold and he wins what...one BB? Maybe he caught a read on you that told him you had complete junk and he wanted to try to get something for his aces. He was probably hoping you’d catch a lower pair or maybe some kind of draw that would have him in a superior position but with more money in.

    Anyway, there are plenty of reasons one might slow play pocket rockets.

    Were there any callers before it came around to him? If so, how many? That would make a pretty big difference.

    But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in. Hell, maybe you’ll try to steal it from me...that’d be nice.
    Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post

    Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?
    Your last question is definitely a good one to ask. That’s the trick to slow-playing rockets, you can’t be married to them.

    Now, did his bet put you all-in or himself all-in post flop? If not and you didn’t go over the top all-in, then you slow played your boat.

  6. #6
    You call it the wrong strategy. I think it's strategy that makes sense. I'm sorry you see it differently. So okay we disagree.

    Regarding AA: the best strategy is always to slow play AA. What was the SB going to do? Should he have pushed pre flop to win my BB and one caller?

    With only two other players he HAD to slow play his AA and unfortunately my junk hit. That's poker. (Isn't that the saying?)

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in.
    How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?

    The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?
    By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.

    If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.

    I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.

    If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.

    I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by coach belly View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in.
    How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?

    The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
    Of course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by coach belly View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    But, if no callers and I think I read you for a bad hand, then I’d slow play from SB and just limp in.
    How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?

    The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
    Of course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.
    Why do you need to look at your cards before it's your turn to act?...especially in the BB?

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?
    By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.

    If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.

    I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.

    If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.

    I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.
    Read Mike Caro's book. He is a big proponent for slow playing aces. Look the guy got caught. Accidents happen. He actually played correctly.

    We chickens make big bets with AA and we scare away the customers. I certainly would have folded my 92 to any raise and the other player (caller) likely would have folded unless he held AA, KK, QQ, JJ which isn't likely since he called and didn't raise either.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by coach belly View Post
    How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?

    The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
    I have no idea what Alan's skill level is, but he would hardly be the first player to check his cards before his turn to act that I've ever seen...and I don't play much.

    He could also be playing Alan's tendencies. Maybe he knows that Alan is tight pre-flop, if that's the case. I don't know the exact situation, I'm just saying that the guy may have been doing it for a reason that had something to do with what he thinks Alan is likely to do.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by coach belly View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by coach belly View Post

    How can you get a pre-flop read on the BB without a raise?

    The BB would have to look at his cards before it's his turn to act.
    Of course I looked at my cards when they were dealt to me. I'm sure I didn't have a "poker face" and for all I know I did have a look of disappointment.
    Why do you need to look at your cards before it's your turn to act?...especially in the BB?
    I don't but I'm an amateur.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post

    Read Mike Caro's book. He is a big proponent for slow playing aces. Look the guy got caught. Accidents happen. He actually played correctly.

    We chickens make big bets with AA and we scare away the customers. I certainly would have folded my 92 to any raise and the other player (caller) likely would have folded unless he held AA, KK, QQ, JJ which isn't likely since he called and didn't raise either.
    That's fine, when you said, "That's why you never slow play Aces," I thought you were being serious. My mistake.

    I don't know what I would have done if I was the other guy, depends on the size of the raise. If the Raise is only to 4x BB, for example, then your fold and my call puts the pot at 9x BB, but I've only got 4x BB in there. I would personally like high pairs or high suited connectors there over folding. Might even go over the top if I think there's weakness, but let's be honest, I am almost disturbingly bad at reading people...so I'm not going to, "Sense," any weakness. Not knowing my opponent has aces, there's probably even some value in a suited Ace-X for the potential flush draw.

    If he shoves and I hope nobody here ever plays poker against me now, but I'm probably folding anything that's not KK or AA.

  15. #15
    If you only called the BB and then someone shoves you had better fold anything besides AA or KK.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you only called the BB and then someone shoves you had better fold anything besides AA or KK.
    I don't know that any poker rule is a Universal. There are probably players good enough to call with less than that in that situation who have a good reason for doing so.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    As it was explained: it was three low cards. It would take an exceptional draw to make straight and a 1/1081 chance to hit a SF is what I remember. One pair pays nothing.

    Holding the single high card gives you a good chance of hitting something with four cards being drawn.

    Had the three SF cards included one or two high cards it would have been a different situation.

    As I mentioned earlier Rob Singer years ago said the correct play was the three low SF cards. But then and now I still follow the strategy to hold the single high card.

    I've had similar hands dealt to me and not once did the missing SF cards show on the draw. While that doesn't prove anything I can say I never regretted holding just the high card.

    You guys should feel very good that Rob would play the hand the same way you do.
    Although the game is different, the concept is the same. You'll get more back holding the straight flush draw. You CANNOT be results oriented in gambling. That's why I used the AA vs 72 analogy. Read this:

    https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...ey-back-often/

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Actually he was the small blind, there was one other player. The SB with AA bet big after the flop and I called but did not raise. I don't know what he was thinking. Im sure he thought evetyone at the table had junk compared to his rockets. How many players fold rockets?
    By, "One other player," I take it you mean one other caller. I don't understand the move, then. If Axelwolf disagrees with me on this one, then you should defer to his opinion over mine. DEFINITELY defer to Dan Druff's opinion over mine if he disagrees with me.

    If I'm the SB and I have a caller, then if I'm not going to just shove AA, I definitely want to try to get at least one of you out of the hand. With two hands against mine, there are going to be a lot of flops that are going to scare me a bit. If you do limp, now you have to be really willing to fold if it's called for...and you know and I know that's going to be a near-impossible lay down for most people.

    I think a really great player could still limp that to try to get more value. I don't think I'm anywhere good enough to get away with that because I don't think I have it in me to make either the read or the subsequent lay down if it becomes necessary...and that's why I'm not a NLHE cash game player...or really a player of any other kind anymore.

    If the SB has rockets and two callers with the BB still to act, then I see no way to limp in there.

    I don't know. Hopefully Axel and Dan Druff chime in on this one. I'm really interested in what Dan Druff has to say here.
    You should not limp in with AA unless you think an aggressive opponent to your left will raise you, and then call your reraise.

    Otherwise, limping with AA is a disaster, because it is impossible to put the blinds on a hand, and fairly difficult to put the non-blinds on a hand.

    Without the ability to put people on a hand, it makes it much tougher to make good laydowns, and you're not likely to extract all that much money with the AA unless you flop a set and they also hit something.

    AA's greatest strength is making a lot of money preflop, either from all-ins or by pot committing your oppponent with another pocket pair when both of you flop an underboard.

    Limping with AA from the SB isn't quite as bad, because the BB calls a ton of hands to a SB raise anyway, so you're still dealing with having a hard time putting them on a hand even if you raise and they call. Additionally, blinds don't tend to trust each other regarding actually having a hand, so sometimes you can still extract decent money when your opponent on the other blind flops top pair or middle pair. However, you can't commit too much, because they easily could have flopped a funny two pair on you.

    Bottom line is that, in general, if you always raise with AA and never limp with it, then you're probably playing correctly preflop.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  19. #19
    Dan Druff,

    Cool, thanks for the answer! Having you basically agree with me on that one makes me feel somewhat validated as I'm not usually too comfortable talking about poker.

    In Alan's case, there was one caller, so you would definitely not limp the aces as the SB. It seems that you're saying you could make an argument for limping in if everyone folds around to the SB and the SB has the rockets, right? My thinking would be if I know the BB is really conservative and has a very narrow range of calling hands, then I would want to go ahead and limp in and, as you pointed out, hope that he catches top pair or middle pair.

    There's also always the chance that the BB takes you for a weak hand and tries to steal one from you pre-flop.

    I do agree that a player isn't wrong just to always raise AA.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I'm convinced that if Alan were to bust in a poker tournament holding A,A and losing to 7,2 offsuit, he'd NEVER play A,A again.
    Let me clarify this situation. It would be an all in PRE-FLOP by the A,A and cold called by the 7,2 off with no previous action in the pot. I see there has been much speculation on the circumstances of this.

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