Video poker machines with auto-hold don't always play optimally

[Mission146]

In this thread, Alan wrote the following:

And to answer Mission: yes I know that three small SF cards has a higher EV. But it's not more likely for me to hit a winner. That's the strategy I learned.

One of the casinos close to me has video poker machines that auto-hold to most likely hand to win, though the paytables are decent for the area, if that tells you anything.

[Alan Mendelson]

And to answer Mission: yes I know that three small SF cards has a higher EV. But it's not more likely for me to hit a winner. That's the strategy I learned.

One of the casinos close to me has video poker machines that auto-hold to most likely hand to win, though the paytables are decent for the area, if that tells you anything.

Sounds like an Indian casino with bingo based games. Some of the California Indian Casinos used to have those games before the laws changed.

[Mission146]

Sounds like an Indian casino with bingo based games. Some of the California Indian Casinos used to have those games before the laws changed.

It’s not and they are not.

[tableplay]

And to answer Mission: yes I know that three small SF cards has a higher EV. But it's not more likely for me to hit a winner. That's the strategy I learned.

One of the casinos close to me has video poker machines that auto-hold to most likely hand to win, though the paytables are decent for the area, if that tells you anything.

I vividly remember the old VLC Touch machines would auto-hold the 5-coin deuces wild strategy (4000 coins returned for a NRF with 5 coins wagered) even if you played less than 5 coins (yes I know - why would someone play less than 5 coins; you could play up to 500 coins on these IIRC).

[Mission146]

I vividly remember the old VLC Touch machines would auto-hold the 5-coin deuces wild strategy (4000 coins returned for a NRF with 5 coins wagered) even if you played less than 5 coins (yes I know - why would someone play less than 5 coins; you could play up to 500 coins on these IIRC).

Like, Optimal five coin holds or suboptimal? What was the paytable?

[jbjb]

And to answer Mission: yes I know that three small SF cards has a higher EV. But it's not more likely for me to hit a winner. That's the strategy I learned.

One of the casinos close to me has video poker machines that auto-hold to most likely hand to win, though the paytables are decent for the area, if that tells you anything.

I vividly remember the old VLC Touch machines would auto-hold the 5-coin deuces wild strategy (4000 coins returned for a NRF with 5 coins wagered) even if you played less than 5 coins (yes I know - why would someone play less than 5 coins; you could play up to 500 coins on these IIRC).

You play less than 5 credits in situations where you DO NOT want a hand pay. i.e. you've been 86'd

[tableplay]

I vividly remember the old VLC Touch machines would auto-hold the 5-coin deuces wild strategy (4000 coins returned for a NRF with 5 coins wagered) even if you played less than 5 coins (yes I know - why would someone play less than 5 coins; you could play up to 500 coins on these IIRC).

Like, Optimal five coin holds or suboptimal? What was the paytable?

Mission, optimal 5 coin holds were applied to <5-coin holds. The pay table was pseudo full-pay:20/12/9/5. In the screen shot below you will see that for the hand JhQh6c8s3h under this paytable and theme, when betting 4 coins or less (bottom image), it is proper to discard all the cards and, when betting 5 coins or more, it is proper to hold the suited jack and queen (upper image). The VLC touch would recommend holding the jack and queen suited irrespective of bet size.

.

[Mission146]

Tableplay,

I understand what you mean. What I was asking is, if you were playing five coins, were the auto-holds 100% correct?

[Rob.Singer]

The auto holds on VP machines are never completely accurate, so no serious vp player would ever play them. So why would a kabal of WoV so-called ap's discuss that function?

[Alan Mendelson]

The auto holds on VP machines are never completely accurate, so no serious vp player would ever play them. So why would a kabal of WoV so-called ap's discuss that function?

Dancer has written about auto holds being in error.

[jbjb]

I've only come across one auto hold machine and it wasn't 100% accurate either.

[Mission146]

The auto holds on VP machines are never completely accurate, so no serious vp player would ever play them. So why would a kabal of WoV so-called ap's discuss that function?

If you read the thread again, then you might be able to figure out why I initially brought it up. Try reading it again twice, if you need to.

If, after reading it at least fifteen times, you need me to be very explicit about why I brought it up, in what context and what I was implying...let me know and I'll oblige.

[Mission146]

Dancer has written about auto holds being in error.

Precisely, you had brought up Q alone v. three consecutive low suited and your reasons for holding Q. That's why I brought up the autoholds on a decent(ish) paytable with the hold being based on most likely to hit a winning hand. It's not a good strategy from an EV standpoint.

[jbjb]

Dancer has written about auto holds being in error.

Precisely, you had brought up Q alone v. three consecutive low suited and your reasons for holding Q. That's why I brought up the autoholds on a decent(ish) paytable with the hold being based on most likely to hit a winning hand. It's not a good strategy from an EV standpoint.

He did it for variance reduction.

[Rob.Singer]

The auto holds on VP machines are never completely accurate, so no serious vp player would ever play them. So why would a kabal of WoV so-called ap's discuss that function?

If you read the thread again, then you might be able to figure out why I initially brought it up. Try reading it again twice, if you need to.

If, after reading it at least fifteen times, you need me to be very explicit about why I brought it up, in what context and what I was implying...let me know and I'll oblige.

I'm sure you have time to discuss this 15 times as you watch fake news on CNN. But while you go thru your Trump derangement syndrome, the snowflakes must still be falling. You completely missed why I brought up the auto-hold flaw.

[tableplay]

Tableplay,

I understand what you mean. What I was asking is, if you were playing five coins, were the auto-holds 100% correct?

Mission, AFAIK, to the extent that I saw the auto-holds, they looked to be 100% correct for 5 coin+ play.

[Mission146]

Mission, AFAIK, to the extent that I saw the auto-holds, they looked to be 100% correct for 5 coin+ play.

Thanks! That's pretty neat, I was honestly just curious.

[tableplay]

Mission, AFAIK, to the extent that I saw the auto-holds, they looked to be 100% correct for 5 coin+ play.

Thanks! That's pretty neat, I was honestly just curious.

No problem. I've seen an off brand set of vp machines at Colusa Casino in Colusa,CA which had a deuces wild variant that had a 5 of a kind progressive that started at 100 coins returned to the player for a 5 of a kind (with 5 coins in) and short-falled some other pay lines to make up for it - these machines were on auto-hold and did as Alan described, which is to say they did not have the correct holds in many cases (I took into account the odd-ball paytables of these), so that you would constantly have to un-hold the cards. But the VLC Touch machines did not seem to suffer from this (or I did not have a large enough sample size to see holding errors, but I doubt this) as the off brand at Colusa did.

[Mission146]

Table Play,

The ones I know best are Spielo GTECH video poker machines, Pick N' Play. They have Keno games too. The auto-holds are wrong, but they tell you that on the rules screen. It tells you that it is based on the best probability of winning the hand, or some such verbiage. The only real exception is that it seems like it will always hold the four-to-a-Royal automatically, even if you have a high pair. Aside from that, it really is best chance to come out with a winning hand, no matter how awful the hold is...and some of them are REALLY bad.

[mickeycrimm]

All video pokers in Montana are auto-hold. There aren't even any hold buttons on the machines. To change the hold it's touchscreen. I have three exploitable games. Two of them have one joker in the deck. The third game, Joker's Vault, a Spielo game, not only has one joker in the deck but about 15% of the time it has two jokers in the deck. I wrote about the game and got some help on it from someone else, on WoV. You can find the thread called Joker's Vault.

In all three games I have to change the auto hold about 1 out of every 8 games. The holds I have to change are not just a little wrong. They are way, way wrong. For example, if you are dealt:

AS-KS-TS-QD-7C

It will hold the inside straight draw over the three-card royal. Expectationwise, the inside straight is worth about 40% and the three-card royal is worth about 132%. In a nutshell, the auto-hold steers you away from Royal and Straight Flushes whether there is a joker in the hand or not. So I have to change about 1 in 8 hands.

The rules screens say the auto-hold suggests a strategy but it may not be the optimum strategy.

How do I like playing auto-hold--and touchscreen to change a hand? I actually prefer it to the classic way. It's actually pretty easy. I operate the deal/draw button with my right hand. Seven out of 8 hands I don't have to change anything, just tap the deal/draw button again. When I have to change a hold I mostly do it with my left hand. It's easy to swipe out two, three, four cards at a time with my middle finger. But there are a few holds where it is easier to use both hands.

I'm a big believer in playing at cruising speed. That's where you are not pushing to play faster. Just cruising. When I try to push it I make mistakes. My cruising speed on these machines is 1000 HPH.