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Thread: NSUD

  1. #1
    So I`m learning how to play NSUD. I`m curious what machine APs think about what the best way to go about it would be... What I mean specifically is this: when I taught myself other games I learned the perfect strategies/penalty cards by setting the EV mistake tolerance to zero on Optimum VP and just playing through thousands of hands until I knew every play (I know this probably wasn`t the best way to learn it, but it didn`t take me that long and my reason for doing so was that I don`t ever want to have to check a strategy card). When starting to do that with this game though, it seems more complicated/less intuitive to me, so I don`t know if I should learn it the same way. The strategy that Op. VP generated for the game costs 10 cents per hours versus learning the perfect strategy. I`d rather just learn to play it perfectly than eat that much cost per hour even though I guess it`s not too bad, but if it`s going to take a long time to learn perfectly then maybe I should? I also wonder if learning the perfect strategy on this one will make me way slower and also when I switch games; will I be thinking about the decisions all that much longer once I get good at it? Any opinions much appreciated.

  2. #2
    Most of the penalty situations involve a deuce with three straight cards like:

    Deuce-5d-6s-7h

    If the 5th card is a ten or jack you go for the straight.
    If the 5th card is a queen, king, ace, you hold the lone deuce.

    Not worth stopping to check. You are correct holding the 4-card straight 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time the EV's on the two different draws are closer than the cheeks on a nats ass. Holding the lone deuce also has a ton more variance to it than going for the straight. I just hold the 4-card straight and forget about it.
    "Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech." Benjamin Franklin

  3. #3
    I would just learn the basic strategy without all the exceptions. Then once you’re perfectly comfortable with that, then start learning the exceptions if you want to. I don’t like memorizing all the exceptions, so I just kinda skim the list, see a few that make intuitive sense, learn those, and be done with it.

    If it’s easy - learn it. If it’s worth a lot - learn it. If it’s neither - why bother?
    #FreeTyde

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Most of the penalty situations involve a deuce with three straight cards like:

    Deuce-5d-6s-7h

    If the 5th card is a ten or jack you go for the straight.
    If the 5th card is a queen, king, ace, you hold the lone deuce.

    Not worth stopping to check. You are correct holding the 4-card straight 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time the EV's on the two different draws are closer than the cheeks on a nats ass. Holding the lone deuce also has a ton more variance to it than going for the straight. I just hold the 4-card straight and forget about it.
    Gotcha. Yep, I see; 0.3c and 3.6c of EV cost respectively on those two hands. Pretty infrequent hand to get as well I`m sure, so I see why you say it makes sense to just go for the straight every time. Good example. Thanks mickey!

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    I would just learn the basic strategy without all the exceptions. Then once you’re perfectly comfortable with that, then start learning the exceptions if you want to. I don’t like memorizing all the exceptions, so I just kinda skim the list, see a few that make intuitive sense, learn those, and be done with it.

    If it’s easy - learn it. If it’s worth a lot - learn it. If it’s neither - why bother?
    Thanks! Comparing the two strategy lists to see what`s most intuitive and cost effective is a good idea. I was thinking somewhere in the middle was probably where I wanted to go with it, I just didn`t know what the best way to approach it would be. I guess I didn`t think about that because I haven`t been using the strategy lists at all so far and have been just blazing through practice hands.

  6. #6
    This NSUD strategy is pretty easy to learn, and is good enough:

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...so-ugly-ducks/
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  7. #7
    I am not an AP but I play VP and prefer to play Double Bonus Dueces Wild and NSUD when I go to Vegas. I have our together my own strategy charts and due to my wife,s passion for arts and crafts Ihad the charts laminated. I put the chart on the left side of the machine when I play and it is a useful tool for those moments when I question a play. The chart is legal and usually takes fives seconds to review.

    Please remember that a strategy chart will offer the best play for a hand, not necessarily a winning hand.

    Heck, I use a laminated BJ chart at the blackjack tables. It is legal and supported by the dealers. By the end of the night I have fellow bettors asking”what the chart says”.

    If you are going to play VP, NSUD is good as a game that is readily available.

    I agree with RS_ on his thoughts about the penalty hands.

    Have fun!

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    This NSUD strategy is pretty easy to learn, and is good enough:

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...so-ugly-ducks/
    Thanks. Funny, I just assumed NSUD stood for "not so ugly deuces".

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Deech View Post
    I am not an AP but I play VP and prefer to play Double Bonus Dueces Wild and NSUD when I go to Vegas. I have our together my own strategy charts and due to my wife,s passion for arts and crafts Ihad the charts laminated. I put the chart on the left side of the machine when I play and it is a useful tool for those moments when I question a play. The chart is legal and usually takes fives seconds to review.

    Please remember that a strategy chart will offer the best play for a hand, not necessarily a winning hand.

    Heck, I use a laminated BJ chart at the blackjack tables. It is legal and supported by the dealers. By the end of the night I have fellow bettors asking”what the chart says”.

    If you are going to play VP, NSUD is good as a game that is readily available.

    I agree with RS_ on his thoughts about the penalty hands.

    Have fun!
    Yeah even though I don`t plan to use the strategy charts because I just want to memorize the plays so they`ll be more automatic, I probably should memorize the chart for each game and that`ll make it easier in the beginning. The other games were really intuitive though, so it was easy for me to just learn the plays. NSUD not going that way when learning it so far though! Harder to memorize the plays for sure. Thanks.

  10. #10
    It's fine to not worry about the once-in-a-blue-moon exceptions. You just need to understand that those do knock off tiny percentages of your EV, and you need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

    But for the most part, it's better to play faster as long as you can get the "intermediate strategy" correct.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    It's fine to not worry about the once-in-a-blue-moon exceptions. You just need to understand that those do knock off tiny percentages of your EV, and you need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

    But for the most part, it's better to play faster as long as you can get the "intermediate strategy" correct.
    Yes. To put it into a more broad perspective, look at the "regular strategy" returns vs "optimal strategy" returns on WOO strategy calculator. For NSUD, it can be found here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...5-d-200-d-800/

    Perfect Strategy (top chart) shows the return as 99.7283%
    Basic Strategy (bottom chart, doesn't include exceptions at bottom of page) is 99.7259%

    The difference is thus 0.997283 - 0.997259 = 0.000024, or 0.0024%. That difference amounts to a whopping $24 over the course of $1,000,000 coin in.


    If you're playing $5 denom ($25/spin) at 1,000 HPH (fast, especially w/ taxables), then that'll be 40 hours worth of play.

    By not learning the exceptions, you'd be giving up $24/40 hours or $0.60 per hour in EV (that's 60 cents!). But again, that's playing $25/spin at 1,000 spins per hour. If you play lower denom and/or slower, then obviously that cost is going to be less.


    I would say, damn near objectively, it's not worth learning any of the exceptions, at least for NSUD.
    #FreeTyde

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    It's fine to not worry about the once-in-a-blue-moon exceptions. You just need to understand that those do knock off tiny percentages of your EV, and you need to adjust your expectations accordingly.

    But for the most part, it's better to play faster as long as you can get the "intermediate strategy" correct.
    Yes. To put it into a more broad perspective, look at the "regular strategy" returns vs "optimal strategy" returns on WOO strategy calculator. For NSUD, it can be found here: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video...5-d-200-d-800/

    Perfect Strategy (top chart) shows the return as 99.7283%
    Basic Strategy (bottom chart, doesn't include exceptions at bottom of page) is 99.7259%

    The difference is thus 0.997283 - 0.997259 = 0.000024, or 0.0024%. That difference amounts to a whopping $24 over the course of $1,000,000 coin in.


    If you're playing $5 denom ($25/spin) at 1,000 HPH (fast, especially w/ taxables), then that'll be 40 hours worth of play.

    By not learning the exceptions, you'd be giving up $24/40 hours or $0.60 per hour in EV (that's 60 cents!). But again, that's playing $25/spin at 1,000 spins per hour. If you play lower denom and/or slower, then obviously that cost is going to be less.


    I would say, damn near objectively, it's not worth learning any of the exceptions, at least for NSUD.
    Good analysis and example. Yep, no reason to waste time on the perfect strategy.

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