Hatred on this Forum

[Bill Yung]

Bill: There are tools to combat variance and develop a blackjack game within casino tolerance. But it takes work. However, the idiots on that particular forum make one begin to question the tools being offered from that resource. The game doesn't just fall positive in a persons lap. When/IF it does? There is the extreme liklihood of a pit boss/EITS saying NO MAS. If you're smart enough to exit on your own volition, then you can always come back. Win Today - Play tomorrow. But if they ask you to leave? Win or Lose, there IS no tomorrow.

Oh, forgive me for misunderstanding the gist of your post. I thought you were being a bit facetious. Are you a little bit dyslexic like me? Anyway, anyone can stretch out their winnings, even with simple negative betting progressions, to ensure a very long winning run or streak. It's only when you try to win more that more problems arise. You have to bet big to win or lose big in a casino, or, face insurmountable odds.

But, then, it's still one long "cold war" session without the true diversity of life that makes all of us stronger. It's funny, at the WoV forum, years ago, because Jacobson used to reply to anyone who called him an idiot with just "spam bot". Just as Tableplay called Slingshot just "singbot". Or Mickey is reduced to repetitive barnyard one-liners.

[Rob.Singer]

Please post the facts and proof of that amount of over two-million dollars being paid to Mike S. for his gambling forum.

Try this:

http://www.gambling911.com/online-ca...on-121614.html

And this:

https://calvinayre.com/2014/09/19/bu...-2-35-million/

It's more than obvious that Mike sold WoO because of his financial woes as a result of failing as an "AP", but there are no details that can be proven. For instance, how was the fee paid? Where was the fee paid? And was the fee actually paid in full yet---or even paid at all? Would YOU sell out to some foreign online casino site? Was payment set up in a way that skirts any tax laws? Finally, what are the REAL terms of the deal....do they own his soul for more time than the deal is worth? Etc. etc. etc.....

Whatever it was that got wizard into financial trouble, he was more than competent to be able to work his way out of it without being compromised by a bunch of opportunistic flesh-eating foreigners. Instead, he succumbed to the lure of fresh cash....cash that he could run to the casinos with. He is a prime example why casino managers keep on advertising their lucrative-sounding promotions knowing how many self-proclaimed ap's will keep coming in with as much cash as they can get their sweaty hands on. Which is also why the vast majority of AP's are too afraid of not being anonymous. These promotions pick them off one by one.

The weak shall inherit the dirt.

[Bill Yung]

Calvin Ayre, and the rest of Mike's "gambling industry" friends are all fugitive US felons? Ha, he's even worried about somebody called 5-dimes Tony. Another one hiding out in South America? How many times has Mike been their guest there? The reason for that Spanish word of the day baloney? That what's you call "dirt", and the people who, like Singer wrote, who support them till the day they die. Cool.

[Moses]

Bill: There are tools to combat variance and develop a blackjack game within casino tolerance. But it takes work. However, the idiots on that particular forum make one begin to question the tools being offered from that resource. The game doesn't just fall positive in a persons lap. When/IF it does? There is the extreme liklihood of a pit boss/EITS saying NO MAS. If you're smart enough to exit on your own volition, then you can always come back. Win Today - Play tomorrow. But if they ask you to leave? Win or Lose, there IS no tomorrow.

Oh, forgive me for misunderstanding the gist of your post. I thought you were being a bit facetious. Are you a little bit dyslexic like me? Anyway, anyone can stretch out their winnings, even with simple negative betting progressions, to ensure a very long winning run or streak. It's only when you try to win more that more problems arise. You have to bet big to win or lose big in a casino, or, face insurmountable odds.

But, then, it's still one long "cold war" session without the true diversity of life that makes all of us stronger. It's funny, at the WoV forum, years ago, because Jacobson used to reply to anyone who called him an idiot with just "spam bot". Just as Tableplay called Slingshot just "singbot". Or Mickey is reduced to repetitive barnyard one-liners.

Bill: I suppose one could make an arugment for alot of things tantamount to one long "cold war" session. Gettied married, raising a family, a job, being in business, that stock market. Just to name of few. They all have ups and downs (variance, if you will). But it's the victories along the way that make it worthwhile. These guys suggest you just take it until the "long run" reaches a formidable conclusion. The most ridiuclous thing I've ever heard because your opponent has to ability to end your run.

Like anything else, you compete and try to improve your game. But they don't want to hear it. Why? Because it already passed them by and that hurts. In basketball, we played 25 games. That's about 50 hours of competition where you bring it from your toenails. Any idea how much preparation and practice went into those 50 hours? About 360 days would be close. So no, you don't just sit and take it. You strive to get better. It's still win or lose, beat or be beatin. Only in this game our ultimate loss is when the opponent submits. Therefore, you can't just go in with a bulldoze attitude imposing your will against theirs. You will LOSE.

They will go for 100+ posts debating a threshold that might occur 1 in 30K hands to achieve intelligent status with their peers. Well, whipty-fuckin-do if one does not understand the difference between advantage and a threshold. Yet, many self professed "pros" puff out their chest and speak to the ease of beating the game.

They're sad, very sad individuals. Pros? Yeah right. When was the draft?

[MisterV]

It's more than obvious that Mike sold WoO because of his financial woes as a result of failing as an "AP", but there are no details that can be proven.

True, but the FACT of the sale seems to have been established.

I suspect the contract provides for a down payment with agreed payments over time, and further requires that the wiz remain active on the site for an agreed amount of time.

It is a private contract, nobody can access its terms unless one of the parties allows it to happen.

[Rob.Singer]

Let's get back to some more of the hate on this forum! I get a tingle up my leg every time I think about it

Let's see....Alan is hated, sling is hated, black hole is hated....but I'm The No. ONE hated personality here! In fact, arci hated me more than anybody but so sad/too bad he croaked. I like how much max hates me because I enjoy seeing it in his RV posts. Of course, jbjb CAN'T STAND me, as identified in how many time he tries to talk himself into what a losing vp player I have always been. But is there anyone who shows his disdain for me more than spock, who can be baited by any post I make that describes how much better off we are than virtually any gambler? In fact right now he's undoubtedly in the midst of a 3-week effort looking up old posts from ANYWHERE and figuring out what kind of false twists and spins he can put on them just to ease his pain about me!

So keep the hate coming guys--it's one of the few reasons I'm still here! And btw, I especially like it when you put up funny pics of me. That shows how much true animosity you have pent up over me, and distinctly explains your reasons for needing to stay anonymous.

God bless the haters!

[blackhole]

It's more than obvious that Mike sold WoO because of his financial woes as a result of failing as an "AP", but there are no details that can be proven.

True, but the FACT of the sale seems to have been established.

I suspect the contract provides for a down payment with agreed payments over time, and further requires that the wiz remain active on the site for an agreed amount of time.

It is a private contract, nobody can access its terms unless one of the parties allows it to happen.

Sites like Gambling911.com, and calvinarye.com reporting on the sale and the amount certainly make the deal sound promising. Yet, those sites are in bed with offshore gaming and have been for years. Online gaming is how they always made their money. I doubt any of them who reported on the sale actually know actual facts. They just said what they were told. The bigger the sale reported to the public the better it is for online business, and the value of their own sites growing.

It certainly could be a fact, but, aren’t these the same guys who fuck every American they can on payouts?

I’m sure something went down, but trusting and taking just the words from the guys that bought it and Mike S. just because they said so, is no different than being guaranteed online casino winnings coming from Costa Rica to Americans.

I suspect there are huge stipulations in any agreement with a guy like Mike S. These guys know how to deal with and take advantage of degenerate gamblers.

Regardless the amount, how long you think Mike S. will last before he starts a go-fund-me account?

[Moses]

Regardless the amount, how long you think Mike S. will last before he starts a go-fund-me account?

Really? Do they come to the house or does one meet at the bar nearest to the sportsbook? Whups, my bad. You wrote "fund me" account.

[MisterV]

I suspect the 2.3M figure is probably ball park, as neither the buyer nor seller have disputed the claim.

One would think that if a materially false statement was trumpeted across the internet that the wronged party would cry "Foul!"

No, he sold it, and at the time by report he was having financial issues.

I don't think the issues were primarily gambling / failed AP related; he got fucked on a Cypriot bank failure, for example.

[Bill Yung]

Bill: I suppose one could make an arugment for alot of things tantamount to one long "cold war" session. Gettied married, raising a family, a job, being in business, that stock market. Just to name of few. They all have ups and downs (variance, if you will). But it's the victories along the way that make it worthwhile. These guys suggest you just take it until the "long run" reaches a formidable conclusion. The most ridiuclous thing I've ever heard because your opponent has to ability to end your run.

Like anything else, you compete and try to improve your game. But they don't want to hear it. Why? Because it already passed them by and that hurts. In basketball, we played 25 games. That's about 50 hours of competition where you bring it from your toenails. Any idea how much preparation and practice went into those 50 hours? About 360 days would be close. So no, you don't just sit and take it. You strive to get better. It's still win or lose, beat or be beatin. Only in this game our ultimate loss is when the opponent submits. Therefore, you can't just go in with a bulldoze attitude imposing your will against theirs. You will LOSE.

They will go for 100+ posts debating a threshold that might occur 1 in 30K hands to achieve intelligent status with their peers. Well, whipty-fuckin-do if one does not understand the difference between advantage and a threshold. Yet, many self professed "pros" puff out their chest and speak to the ease of beating the game.

They're sad, very sad individuals. Pros? Yeah right. When was the draft?

Okay, well, here's the first link that came up in the way of something about a cold war, https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...-cold-war1.htm . A sort of war of attrition.

AP'ing is a of war of attrition, but only in a strange unilateral sort of way. They can't inflict any end-game damage on any casino. They have no real control, in any ultimate sense, over any of the casino games, not even with the poker games. They are forced to take their wins literally a dime a bet. Nothing about families, jobs and stocks is a war of attrition, because no person/thing is being gradually worn down in any way by those processes. Eg, why would an employer want to wear down, and defeat, the very people that make his company great?

Internet gambling forums are, likely, a war of attrition, in another weird way, but, here, much like what the AP's do in the casinos. For sure, nobody is going to, or really can, change their way of thinking for an internet forum, where so much of it comes out in the many words, and sentence structures.

However, if you're not an AP versus Systems Player, or, not in it for the so-called "recreation", and, are only trying to observe and learn something about, casino gambling, and the people who do it, then it becomes a whole other type of game, or distraction, from the more rigorous routines of everyday life. We all need a break. Right? You really have not to be a casino goer at all to fully appreciate this point of view. I mean, in contrast, where does the AP go for a break from that stuff? Spend all day in a dark and noisy casino, hoping to make a few bucks without getting tossed out, only to have to come to an even worse place like these forums for friendships? Assuming that, more or less, they have to take the forum subject matter seriously - it's about what they do, after all.

[Bill Yung]

I suspect the 2.3M figure is probably ball park, as neither the buyer nor seller have disputed the claim.

One would think that if a materially false statement was trumpeted across the internet that the wronged party would cry "Foul!"

No, he sold it, and at the time by report he was having financial issues.

I don't think the issues were primarily gambling / failed AP related; he got fucked on a Cypriot bank failure, for example.

One would think that a known braggart like Shackleford would still be singing it from the rooftop were there anything great about it. Companies change hands, all the time, but name one that requires the previous owner to stay on, for any stretch of time, especially on qua employee, on a vacuous and dying internet forum that you wrote never had a lot of members. Fantasy Island stuff that only a gambler would believe. Yeah, sure, it sold for over 2 million, and Mike's old bosses (fugitive felons, and drug dealers) sing it from the rooftop for him. On their forums, no less. Like everything else, which is mostly everything else about Shackleford, it seems that he can never say anything concrete. The guy is just another loudmouth liar who got what he deserved. Like he does so often sing there, it's his forum, he's the dictator, take it or leave it.

I recall what was likely the last serious math discussions there, with some degreed guys, about Jacobson's method for card counting the baccarat dragon bet. (Jacobson wasn't even the first guy to do it.) In the end, all agreed, except for Jacobson, of course, that counting for that bet was a waste of time. You would have to bet hundreds of dollars a pop, and, then, wade through a high variance of, maybe, a couple hundred hands of baccarat, for that first win at 40 times the bet. You can't just sit there to bet that on each hand. You have to keep waiting for a particular level of card count. There was a collective sigh, or letting the air out of the tire that was Mike's forum, that day.

A year later, comes Babs to point out about ten of the highlights there of ways to beat the casinos. She spoke of this, but not how it ended by consensus of those members, who, then, basically, left the forum for good. More Babs' lies and baloney.

P.S. And oh, as I already pointed out there, years ago, even a mid-level but sharp actuary would have doubled that fantasy 2.3 mil, in the same time span, and, with none of the built-up (over ten years) overhead that was Shackleford's. I posted the standard specific chart at the time for such wages. Ha, and could still be raking in even bigger bucks now. Certainly, not the funny crumbs who Shackelford and his believers turned out to be.

[Moses]

Bill: 25 years in a marriage filed with lies and deception wore me down a good bit. Black Monday was a day I will never forget. Employers squeezed me for all they could get. Losing 2/3rd wealth in one year after building for 30 years will take the "cheese right off ones cracker." Others who have been through less are far worse off and lost their mental well being.

But I agree that a dark and noisy casino isn't the best place to hang out. Get in, get paid, get out. I thought a forum would be a great place to gain more advantage. But for the most part (I'm not talking about this one) it's one long never ending pissing contest. I've learned it's for fun and if I learn something along the way? Even better.

If one is patient, disciplined, and attentive it is possible to profit from what the rest of the world calls gambling. For me, it's looks like they are the gamblers and just don't realize it.

[Bill Yung]

Bill: 25 years in a marriage filed with lies and deception wore me down a good bit. Black Monday was a day I will never forget. Employers squeezed me for all they could get. Losing 2/3rd wealth in one year after building for 30 years will take the "cheese right off ones cracker." Others who have been through less are far worse off and lost their mental well being.

But I agree that a dark and noisy casino isn't the best place to hang out. Get in, get paid, get out. I thought a forum would be a great place to gain more advantage. But for the most part (I'm not talking about this one) it's one long never ending pissing contest. I've learned it's for fun and if I learn something along the way? Even better.

If one is patient, disciplined, and attentive it is possible to profit from what the rest of the world calls gambling. For me, it's looks like they are the gamblers and just don't realize it.

Some of the blackjack forums were more math-oriented, but it's only what they call gambling math. Been on virtually all of those. Real mathematicians eschew any mention of that stuff. The early Greeks omitted any mention of it, though similar games were around then. Historians are still trying to figure out their reason(s) for that, in the historical sense. Certainly, historians aren't real mathematicians. I always use that word real on these forums because people still think that Mike is some sort of mathematician.

I think that what you described are, for the most part, economic "bubbles" that burst, and other long-term corrections. Stuff like that affects everyone.

[Bill Yung]

Well, none of this stuff on any and all of the gambling forums would be a "pissing contest" if the "winners" could prove any of it. Not to say that most of it isn't a non-starter.

[Dan Druff]

Calvin Ayre, and the rest of Mike's "gambling industry" friends are all fugitive US felons? Ha, he's even worried about somebody called 5-dimes Tony. Another one hiding out in South America? How many times has Mike been their guest there? The reason for that Spanish word of the day baloney? That what's you call "dirt", and the people who, like Singer wrote, who support them till the day they die. Cool.

I don't think he has to worry about 5 Dimes Tony anymore: https://news.co.cr/judiciary-police-...ta-rica/76738/

[Dan Druff]

Between all the trolling, there are actually some interesting discussions here.

I'll chime in.

Regarding Alan: I don't think he's an "AP hater", but I do think he's an "AP doubter", and that gets under a lot of people's skin. I've had a lot of debates with Alan on this topic myself.

A good example is Alan's attitude regarding winning.

Alan shows up and sees a bad 7-5 bonus poker machine, but he's in the mood to gamble, and plays anyway. He gets lucky and walks away $1500 ahead on this particular occasion.

I find a 9-6 Jacks or Better machine with a players club point multiplier which technically puts the game over 100% return, plus earns me status points and future offers at the property. However, I run terrible on this particular occasion, and lose $3000.

Alan would be proud of his win and look down upon my loss. He would say something like, "Your EV doesn't matter if you end up losing real money, and my -EV doesn't matter if I win."

That's not a direct quote, but he's said stuff like this before, and understandably people get frustrated by it.

Some also suspect that Alan is trolling when he writes things like this, because many other times he comes off as intelligent, so people assume he's being intentionally dense in order to mock APs.

I actually don't believe that. I think Alan is a recreational gambler who doesn't feel like expending the time, effort, and self control required to become an AP. When he walks into a casino, he wants to play games for fun, and not be bogged down by odds, paytables, etc. APs have to constantly be concerned about this stuff, and it cooks a lot of the "fun" out of the game (aside from the fun of showing a profit). Anyway, I think Alan's dismissal of APs mainly comes from not wanting to admit that their approach to casinos is superior.

Reminds me a bit of people I encounter on cruise forums. I'm what you would call a "value cruiser". In addition to cruising on casino certificates, even when I buy a second room on my own dime, I always find the exact right moment to purchase it at the bottom price. I book my own shore excursions (or do them myself with a rental car), and aside from eating at the "specialty" restaurants (which are way better, and worth the upcharge), I don't spend any other money onboard. So I get huge value from these cruise ships, yet never deprive myself of the comforts of vacation (which is why I usually get 2 rooms, for example). Anyway, I encounter people who do cruising stupidly, including ones who book way in advance, not understanding that they're always getting the worst deal. I try to help them by explaining the cruise pricing timeline, but they are so married to their past (bad) decisions, they come up with all kinds of silly reasons why their way is superior.

I think Alan is basically the same way here, except it's with gambling rather than cruising.

In short, I don't think Alan is trying to be a troll or a jerk, but rather is dismissive of APs because he wants to appear like his recreational gambling is the smarter choice.

I do think he has too much of a soft spot for Rob, which also pisses people off. Rob is definitely a troll, and Alan defends him far too often. That also rubs people the wrong way.

[Dan Druff]

Next topic I want to discuss:

If you're an AP, is it really one long session?

I'll give you my favorite non-committal answer: Yes and no.

Yes, if you're an AP, you shouldn't obsess over session results. You should play as long as you can in +EV spots (provided your bankroll can support it, and provided it doesn't jeopardize your standing at the casino), and you should quit as soon as a spot is no longer +EV.

However, there are some reasons one should be concerned over session-to-session results:

1) Bankroll. Unless your bankroll is very deep, some bad variance can seriously damage or harm your bankroll, especially if this particular play is much larger than other ones you typically make. This is the same reason I stopped playing poker games like 400-800, because they don't go often enough anymore, and the variance is just too damn high.

2) Sanity. We are all human beings. Try as we may, we cannot be cold robots who ignore bad losses and simply say, "Well, it was +EV! It will all work out in the long run!" Big losing sessions hurt. There can be real psychological pain from wiping out months of painstaking AP work with one horrid session. Sometimes, if doing badly enough, it's just better to stand up and walk away, even if you're still in a +EV spot.

3) Mistakes. When things aren't going well, we can make mistakes we otherwise wouldn't have made while playing, which costs us money, and in fact can turn a +EV spot into -EV.

4) Outside interests. It's good to have interests outside casinos, even if you're a consistently winning AP. This can take many forms -- hobbies, sports, family, nature, travel, etc. I can't fault the AP who shows up for a +EV play, hits some unexpected jackpot at the beginning, and decides he's not going to grind for a few hundred extra dollars in EV, but instead will just spend those days on other more pleasurable pursuits.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan you are so damn wrong it's shocking.

Yes I look for and play the best paytables and I use casino promotions and I use loss rebates and I do everything the APs do. But I tell the truth about my results.

Do I make errors in my play? Yes. I'm sure our APs make errors too but they won't talk about them just as they don't volunteer their losses the way I do.

Do I sometimes adjust correct strategy to increase my chances for a royal? You're damn right I do.

The only difference between me and the AP mafia is that I don't swallow their BS about $800 an hour plays and so forth.

Regarding Rob: let's just say I figured out Rob a long time ago. The real Rob is the nicest guy in the world. The forum Rob is a sonofabitch.

[Dan Druff]

Dan you are so damn wrong it's shocking.

Yes I look for and play the best paytables and I use casino promotions and I use loss rebates and I do everything the APs do. But I tell the truth about my results.

Do I make errors in my play? Yes. I'm sure our APs make errors too but they won't talk about them just as they don't volunteer their losses the way I do.

Do I sometimes adjust correct strategy to increase my chances for a royal? You're damn right I do.

The only difference between me and the AP mafia is that I don't swallow their BS about $800 an hour plays and so forth.

Regarding Rob: let's just say I figured out Rob a long time ago. The real Rob is the nicest guy in the world. The forum Rob is a sonofabitch.

Alan, I know you do look for the best paytables, and redeem casino promotions as much as possible. I'm not saying you're a complete ploppy.

I'm saying that you have stated many times that you doubt APs, and that you doubt the usefulness of a +EV situation.

It seems that, the way you see it, immediate results are all that matters. If you play a big-time -EV machine and luck into winning, you believe you made a smart decision, and you seem to feel APs made a dumb decision playing +EV games if they end up losing.

I don't think people here are that concerned about how you play video poker, or the fact that you're a recreational gambler. What they don't like is that you seem to look down upon those who are APs, and seem to dismiss it as pseudo-science.

Do some APs lie and/or exaggerate? Yes.

Are some APs lifetime losers because of lacking self-control or improper bankroll management? Yes.

Does this mean you should dismiss APs and their ability to beat casinos? No. Many APs do it right, and profit very nicely.


Regarding Rob, you have to understand that nobody here gets to experience "nice in-person Rob" like you do. They only get to experience Troll Rob, who makes countless personal attacks, as well as spouts a lot of racist and homophobic rhetoric. When you seem to routinely stick up for a user like that, people will start to attack you.

[blackhole]

I suspect the 2.3M figure is probably ball park, as neither the buyer nor seller have disputed the claim.

One would think that if a materially false statement was trumpeted across the internet that the wronged party would cry "Foul!"

No, he sold it, and at the time by report he was having financial issues.

I don't think the issues were primarily gambling / failed AP related; he got fucked on a Cypriot bank failure, for example.

I suspect they all agreed to say the 2.3-million-dollar figure was for the benefit of everyone involved. How good would it look if they announced they gave him 50 or a 100 grand with a stipulation that he had to stay on with a shitty salary.

If you believe in that picture that Mikes signing a 2.3-million-dollar contract in a bar/restaurant surrounded by patrons, and not a single lawyer in sight could explain why you believe the numbers are correct.

In addition, I remember reading about the Cyprus bank rip-off. The island was in financial jeopardy long before meatball Mike announced his problems. How his money obviously from online casinos promotions got there is easy to figure out. Crooks have a habit of dealing with other crooks. That’s how they move illegal transactions around the world. Also, I remember the meatball saying it was around 100k. If that amount of money destroyed his life at his age, you had problems anyhow.

What I’m saying here is in my view, this whole group of people involved in this deal are well known foreign crooks with no respect of our country’s laws, for the benefit of personal gain. They will say and do anything to embezzle U.S. dollars from U.S. citizens out of this country. They probably are associated with foreign mafias.

2.3 M for a gambling discussion web-site? These are the people you believe are telling the truth. Wake up and see it for what it really is. BULLSHIT