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Thread: A violent felony arrest in the blackjack pit

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  1. #1
    As I was walking thru Suncoast last night to use my free play I was an eyewitness to a violent felony arrest in their blackjack pit which is by the main entrance.

    I saw no less than six uniformed security men pounce on and wrestle and subdue to the floor a man who may have been about six feet tall, and he struggled every bit of the way. He even struggled as they carried (repeat: carried) him out thru the casino.

    There was so much commotion and yelling that the casino came to a halt to watch. And within a few minutes the details became known.

    The man who got pounced on was a known cheater. He would post bet and remove chips when the cards were not in his favor. He had a history of doing this at the Suncoast, which has many young and inexperienced dealers. He was warned before and was told to leave the property before, was what I was told.

    This time they were ready for him. They had the NGC there monitoring his play and cheating and got it on tape, and when they had enough evidence they took him down.

    I think the actual struggle happened as he attempted to walk out. I head him yelling "why are you doing this to me?" as they carried him thru the casino.

    Twice he squirmed out of the arms of the uniformed personnel and dropped to the casino floor as they carried him away.

    It was quite a scene.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    As I was walking thru Suncoast last night to use my free play I was an eyewitness to a violent felony arrest in their blackjack pit which is by the main entrance.

    I saw no less than six uniformed security men pounce on and wrestle and subdue to the floor a man who may have been about six feet tall, and he struggled every bit of the way. He even struggled as they carried (repeat: carried) him out thru the casino.

    There was so much commotion and yelling that the casino came to a halt to watch. And within a few minutes the details became known.

    The man who got pounced on was a known cheater. He would post bet and remove chips when the cards were not in his favor. He had a history of doing this at the Suncoast, which has many young and inexperienced dealers. He was warned before and was told to leave the property before, was what I was told.

    This time they were ready for him. They had the NGC there monitoring his play and cheating and got it on tape, and when they had enough evidence they took him down.

    I think the actual struggle happened as he attempted to walk out. I head him yelling "why are you doing this to me?" as they carried him thru the casino.

    Twice he squirmed out of the arms of the uniformed personnel and dropped to the casino floor as they carried him away.

    It was quite a scene.
    I find it odd that once NGC was called and after they seen that the guy was cheating that NGC didn't take over the arrest(normally they take over once they come out for any situation). It doesn't make any sense to me. The casino made a mistake by sending their security guards in at that point, in the off chance that something goes wrong and they get sued. It's even more apparent they made a mistake since the entire casino stopped gambling to watch. Oftentimes people wont/don't respect security guards and put up a fight, especially if they are unarmed. Where as someone might be less inclined to cause a ruckus if a detective or cop asked them to come with them because they have some questions.

    You may not be getting the entire story.

  3. #3
    I heard he was an advantage player, and he claimed to have a 4% "edge" doing this. But after he was caught, everyone on WoV pretended that they never even heard of him....from their armchairs, of course.

    We await another mickeycrimm "tale from the past" about some drunken adolescent power drinker who absolutely KILLED casinos with his outside-the-box casino schemes before dying an excruciating, humiliating, painful death from lung cancer because he was too uneducated and therefore too stupid, to understand that cigarettes are not a human being's friend.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I heard he was an advantage player, and he claimed to have a 4% "edge" doing this. But after he was caught, everyone on WoV pretended that they never even heard of him....from their armchairs, of course..
    Who was it?

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I saw no less than six uniformed security men pounce on and wrestle and subdue to the floor a man who may have been about six feet tall, and he struggled every bit of the way. He even struggled as they carried (repeat: carried) him out thru the casino.

    There was so much commotion and yelling that the casino came to a halt to watch. And within a few minutes the details became known.

    The man who got pounced on was a known cheater. He would post bet and remove chips when the cards were not in his favor. He had a history of doing this at the Suncoast, which has many young and inexperienced dealers. He was warned before and was told to leave the property before, was what I was told.

    This time they were ready for him. They had the NGC there monitoring his play and cheating and got it on tape, and when they had enough evidence they took him down.

    I think the actual struggle happened as he attempted to walk out. I head him yelling "why are you doing this to me?" as they carried him thru the casino.

    Twice he squirmed out of the arms of the uniformed personnel and dropped to the casino floor as they carried him away.

    It was quite a scene.
    I'm not sure how many it was going to take to kick my ass, but I knew how many they were going to use. That's a handy little piece of information. Evidently it was somewhere between 6 and 1.


    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    I find it odd that once NGC was called and after they seen that the guy was cheating that NGC didn't take over the arrest(normally they take over once they come out for any situation). It doesn't make any sense to me. The casino made a mistake by sending their security guards in at that point, in the off chance that something goes wrong and they get sued. It's even more apparent they made a mistake since the entire casino stopped gambling to watch. Oftentimes people wont/don't respect security guards and put up a fight, especially if they are unarmed. Where as someone might be less inclined to cause a ruckus if a detective or cop asked them to come with them because they have some questions.

    You may not be getting the entire story.
    NGC? IF dealer doesn't deal, player can't cheat. So have them stop dealing. Isolate the guy one on one and tell them what you have on tape. Invite him to see it. As AW pointed out, they scared the shit out of their patrons, plus any other card counters in the building. Contrary to popular belief, not all card counters make money.

    If not, walk him to the door nicely. Say bye bye and leave him to deal with the criminal element inside and outside the brick and mortar.
    Last edited by Moses; 11-25-2018 at 02:47 PM.

  5. #5
    Axel I don't know what preceded the "takedown." Maybe the NGC did approach him first and the guy headed for the door?

    When I was talking to a pit boss later we actually discussed the subject of casino liability. His position was that the NGC was calling the shots and they had been watching this guy for quite awhile.

    Suncoast is really vulnerable because they have dealers right out of school. Many young women.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Axel I don't know what preceded the "takedown." Maybe the NGC did approach him first and the guy headed for the door?

    When I was talking to a pit boss later we actually discussed the subject of casino liability. His position was that the NGC was calling the shots and they had been watching this guy for quite awhile.

    Suncoast is really vulnerable because they have dealers right out of school. Many young women.
    So you played the FP you got from past losses and then took the winnings right over to the craps table and gave it right back.

    Or we can be believe you just walked up to a Pit Boss without playing and he ignored his job to discuss casino liability in general and a particular situation in detail.

    Some tight protection of corporate assets they have going there at Suncoast, discussing private casino business with the players.

    More Alan BS.

  7. #7
    Yes Boz I won $21 of free play by swiping my card for the weekend drawings. They have a DuPars restaurant at Suncoast which is also popular in LA. I like their meatloaf.

    What's next? You're going to say this didn't happen just like the 18 yos didn't happen?

    I think there's a very good reason that casino managers responded to questions. And that is everybody saw it.

  8. #8
    It's believable that a loose-lipped casino manager might have briefly explained the situation to Alan, but it clearly had a bias.

    I personally believe nothing casinos tell me until I can get independent verification.

    The problem is that some of these aggressive strongarm takedowns of players are warranted, while others are illegal and abusive. It is often impossible to tell the difference.

    I also find it suspicious that Gaming didn't just arrest the guy themselves, if he was doing something illegal. Casino security is there in lieu of the police, and their role is simply to detain the suspect and hand him over to the police if there is illegal activity involved. However, often they take it much further than that.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  9. #9
    Dan. The police don't give a rip about some guy cheating at cards, in my neck of the woods.

    Years ago, I went back to play at a place that had already backed me off. After maybe 10 minutes, the lady dealer was chatting endlessly about her home town. I hear a walkie talkie and there was a Security Guard behind me. If he was a day under 80, I'd be surprised. Then, I look down at the end of the tables to my left and there is another SG and another at the right end. The two lady dealers had a better chance of hurling me into the street than these 3 guys. So I kept playing and they kept shaking.

    Now, a big dude walks into the pit. The lady dealer at the empty table asks "what are you doing here? I haven't seen you in awhile." Dude replies "they called me down to take care of some business." So I deduce that blackjack is not a game worth getting my assed kicked over as I pushed my chips forward. I walked to the cage, cashed my chips, and decided to stroll back by the tables as I was curious. Only the two lady dealers were in the pit, standing at their empty tables.

  10. #10
    Alan, I saw that you posted your letter to the Sun Point on your Facebook.

    It was a good letter.

    You should repost it here.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  11. #11
    I was in your casino when you violently arrested a player who was cheating at blackjack.

    I started playing in your casino just a few months ago and always felt safe there. The players were older, and the staff was friendly and I especially enjoyed your craps crews.

    But that changed Saturday night when security wrestled that player to the ground and literally carried him through the main aisle of the casino, presumably to your security area.

    I understand he was cheating at blackjack but I always thought that casinos wouldn't risk a violent confrontation in a casino when there was a potential risk to guests.

    Quite honestly during this violent arrest I didn't know how it might escalate. I didn't know if someone had a gun which triggered the violent confrontation. Yes, I was scared.

    I was playing craps and everything came to a halt in the casino. At the nearby roulette table players were ducking for cover. I was having thoughts about potential gunfire and surveyed how to find cover.

    I am now in the TV advertising business and previously I was in the TV news business in Los Angeles. I've been shot at and I've seen takedowns of suspects but never have I seen a takedown of an unarmed person as I did on Saturday.

    Is that really what you do when only money is involved? I certainly got the impression your security people were attacking a terrorist who was ready to open fire. And that is why I am not confident or secure in your casino anymore.

    My TV show in Los Angeles is called Best Buys and it's on KCOP Channel 13 on Saturdays. My website is www.alanbestbuys.com and if this is what you do over money your casino isn't a Best Buy in my mind.

    Over the years I've covered many news stories and interviewed many casino managers. When it came to financial crime the strategy was always to never endanger the customers. Clearly someone blew it on Saturday.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I was in your casino when you violently arrested a player who was cheating at blackjack.

    I started playing in your casino just a few months ago and always felt safe there. The players were older, and the staff was friendly and I especially enjoyed your craps crews.

    But that changed Saturday night when security wrestled that player to the ground and literally carried him through the main aisle of the casino, presumably to your security area.

    I understand he was cheating at blackjack but I always thought that casinos wouldn't risk a violent confrontation in a casino when there was a potential risk to guests.

    Quite honestly during this violent arrest I didn't know how it might escalate. I didn't know if someone had a gun which triggered the violent confrontation. Yes, I was scared.

    I was playing craps and everything came to a halt in the casino. At the nearby roulette table players were ducking for cover. I was having thoughts about potential gunfire and surveyed how to find cover.

    I am now in the TV advertising business and previously I was in the TV news business in Los Angeles. I've been shot at and I've seen takedowns of suspects but never have I seen a takedown of an unarmed person as I did on Saturday.

    Is that really what you do when only money is involved? I certainly got the impression your security people were attacking a terrorist who was ready to open fire. And that is why I am not confident or secure in your casino anymore.

    My TV show in Los Angeles is called Best Buys and it's on KCOP Channel 13 on Saturdays. My website is www.alanbestbuys.com and if this is what you do over money your casino isn't a Best Buy in my mind.

    Over the years I've covered many news stories and interviewed many casino managers. When it came to financial crime the strategy was always to never endanger the customers. Clearly someone blew it on Saturday.
    is it possible you can use your contacts in the news business to get this story reported by a media outlet - newspaper or tv broadcast?


    I'm sure it would be of interest to a great many people
    please don't feed the trolls

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I was in your casino when you violently arrested a player who was cheating at blackjack.

    I started playing in your casino just a few months ago and always felt safe there. The players were older, and the staff was friendly and I especially enjoyed your craps crews.

    But that changed Saturday night when security wrestled that player to the ground and literally carried him through the main aisle of the casino, presumably to your security area.

    I understand he was cheating at blackjack but I always thought that casinos wouldn't risk a violent confrontation in a casino when there was a potential risk to guests.

    Quite honestly during this violent arrest I didn't know how it might escalate. I didn't know if someone had a gun which triggered the violent confrontation. Yes, I was scared.

    I was playing craps and everything came to a halt in the casino. At the nearby roulette table players were ducking for cover. I was having thoughts about potential gunfire and surveyed how to find cover.

    I am now in the TV advertising business and previously I was in the TV news business in Los Angeles. I've been shot at and I've seen takedowns of suspects but never have I seen a takedown of an unarmed person as I did on Saturday.

    Is that really what you do when only money is involved? I certainly got the impression your security people were attacking a terrorist who was ready to open fire. And that is why I am not confident or secure in your casino anymore.

    My TV show in Los Angeles is called Best Buys and it's on KCOP Channel 13 on Saturdays. My website is www.alanbestbuys.com and if this is what you do over money your casino isn't a Best Buy in my mind.

    Over the years I've covered many news stories and interviewed many casino managers. When it came to financial crime the strategy was always to never endanger the customers. Clearly someone blew it on Saturday.

    I would have scrambled for cover, since in all my time in casinos, I have never really seen a violent takedown. I would have had to assume that the guy was armed, at the least, and maybe wired. So yeah, I would have been sprinting for cover, and I would have automatically assumed he was armed or wired.

  14. #14
    Good job Alan. Clearly someone screwed the pooch on this occasion. I've seen guys escorted away without limbs touching the floor but it was because they were bothering the other patrons. I've never seen uniformed police in a casino. It's NOT there jurisdiction. I've only heard of it once and that was when an alleged crime was committed outside the brick and mortar and the guy ran inside to get away. That was one helluva an ordeal. But the news report wasn't anywhere close to what actually happened.

    FWIW. Alan. My advice is to let it go. What goes around comes around in the casino industry. Not like the real world.

  15. #15
    I'm going to "let it go" because Suncoast means nothing to me. Their buffet sucks. DuPars is a place I can eat without making a bet, and I got lucky and won $21 of free play and they have $5 craps.

    Edited to add: I'm only on the mailing list because I used to play heavily at Sam's Town, and it's where I hit a $5 VP progressive and hit the ALL there multiple times playing the table max of $25-$10-$25. Boyd wants their money back.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 11-27-2018 at 11:37 AM.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I'm going to "let it go" because Suncoast means nothing to me. Their buffet sucks. .
    LOL. Atta boy. You're a hoot!
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    DuPars is a place I can eat without making a bet, and I got lucky and won $21 of free play and they have $5 craps..
    Sage advice. Follow your stomach and the money trails. You'll never be hungry or go broke.

  17. #17
    Redietz in all the years I've been in casinos, and my first time was in 1976, the "most" I've ever seen in person was a player being escorted out by security without even a hand being placed on the player's body.

    Yeah. I'm sure if I took a survey EVERYONE would have thought this guy was armed and dangerous. Like I said the people at the roulette table all dropped to the floor as if they expected gunfire.

    Just consider what just happened at that club in California. And Vegas has its own history.

    But remember the craps table robbery at Bellagio? Their security let the guy go. They knew they'd get him from the security videos. There was no need for any heroics.

    And so what if a post bettor got out the door? How much could Suncoast lose? I don't think you can bet more than $100 at their tables.

  18. #18
    New female dealers not as intelligent as new Male dealers? Are we assigning genders to them automatically and you are assuming they are actually female?


    Also, assuming he is unarmed...

  19. #19
    No one said anything about the intelligence of young dealers. But young dealers are still concentrating on basic tasks such as getting pays straight and shuffling cards correctly and are less likely to notice things like past posting.

    If security for even a second thought that he had a weapon then they absolutely did the wrong thing. Never antagonize anyone with a weapon ESPECIALLY WHEN THE SECURITY GUARDS AT SUNCOAST WERE NOT ARMED.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Never antagonize anyone with a weapon ESPECIALLY WHEN THE SECURITY GUARDS AT SUNCOAST WERE NOT ARMED.
    I'm no expert on casino security (my dad was, years ago, but that's another story), but I'd be willing to bet that an armed plain clothes casino employee was probably nearby, poised and ready, as the fracas unfolded.
    What, Me Worry?

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