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Thread: Wonging; Counting Two Tables

  1. #1
    I've been reading about the magic of this strategy for years. But this week I followed up on the idea.

    Counting two tables: Firstly, you will need two shoe tables side by side. Next, the casinos would have to have enough people playing to warrant opening more than one table. So it's only a weekend opportunity. My research indicated that opportunity existed once out of 13 casinos. I read Vegas had 43 casinos that offer blackjack. Assuming a similar ratio, then maybe 3 or 4 casinos have this opportunity. The travelling player might find it in one out of every 3 towns with at least 5 casinos. A state with 25 to 30 casinos might have 2 opportunities? East coast may be different where shoes are the only games offered.

    Wonging: Standing near enough a table too see the cards well enough to count feels like being in a spotlight after about 5 minutes. Imagine standing between two and glancing back and forth. Cards would have to be dealt face up. IT seems like a high risk endeavor unless the pit personnel are very busy and the EITS is on a break. During off peak hours the pit doesn't have a lot to do anyway. In 5 casinos, during a late afternoon weekday scouting tour, less than 20 people were playing blackjack total.

    I've read that players in Vegas get surrounded by casino security when playing double deck games. They actually push the players chips forward and demand they exit. Several places do not offer a fair game and don't seem to care. Hard to imagine them being so devout and intense in one aspect and blissfully unaware or not caring about a wonger.

    Networking: IF wonging weally works, then why tell your buddies? Hence, it's hard to be discreet with a "more the merrier" concept. Seems like a "punch in the throat" manta would be better served. Hence, I know where to find my best games and dealers. But if I share that info then their asses will be planted where mine used to be and my accumulating EV will be zippo. Pretty soon you'll have 3 guys standing behind one shoe with only 2 spots open in Cape Girardeau, Mo. Well damn, lets drive another 3 hours on ice and give that casino a try. Shrewd.

    Could it be Mr. Wong was wrong about his wong? The tail that wags the dog.
    Last edited by Moses; 12-01-2018 at 06:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Counting two tables: Firstly, you will need two shoe tables side by side. Next, the casinos would have to have enough people playing to warrant opening more than one table. So it's only a weekend opportunity. My research indicated that opportunity existed once out of 13 casinos. I read Vegas had 43 casinos that offer blackjack. Assuming a similar ratio, then maybe 3 or 4 casinos have this opportunity. The travelling player might find it in one out of every 3 towns with at least 5 casinos. A state with 25 to 30 casinos might have 2 opportunities? East coast may be different where shoes are the only games offered.
    Moses have you been to Vegas, because it seems like you have no clue about Vegas. I count more than two dozen strip casinos and all have multiple blackjack tables, usually right next to each other. And we are talking many more tables than 2. Many of these casinos even have multiple pits.

    Then add in downtown. I am counting 9 casinos with multiple BJ tables next to each other.

    Off strip, just going to randomly list casinos with multiple tables next to each other that are open most of the time. Southpoint, The M, Green Valley Ranch, Silverton, Sunset station, Alainte, Fiesta Rancho, fiesta Henderson, Texas station, Lucky Club, Sam's town, Red Rock, Palace Station, Suncoast, Rampart, Sante Fe, Tuscany, Ellis island, Gold coast, Rio, Palms, Orleans, Hard Rock, Silver 7, Westgate.

    That is just off the top of my head. Now I am not saying all these are in my rotation. Some are not for various reasons, heat, poor penetration, Hard Rock is all 6:5. My rotation is between 30-36 casinos at any time. The majority of these have that potential and not just on weekends. As a matter of fact, weekends present the lesser opportunities because of more crowded conditions.

    But you know what Moses...don't believe it. And don't employ this technique. Makes no difference to me and the other players that you know that employ this technique.

  3. #3
    I guess I'm surprised at the number of people who do not visit Las Vegas. If you're gambling, it seems an odd thing to live and gamble in Reno and be unaware of what goes on a few miles south. I have driven cross-country quite a few times, so I find it surprising that Reno residents find Las Vegas (and Fresno residents find LA) to be alien territories. Maybe it's me. When I lived in Pennsylvania, the idea of loading up a car and driving to Florida for a week didn't seem daunting; it seemed like fun.


    I'm not just talking about Moses here. Argentino seems to have real issues with Las Vegas. I've had clients in Sacramento who drove over the mountains to Reno, but these folks were also quite familiar with Las Vegas, so this Reno/Las Vegas divide seems incongruous to me.

    Why, if you're seriously gambling in Reno, would you not make yourself intimately familiar with what is available in Las Vegas? Las Vegas obviously offers more and different opportunities. The likelihood is that some would be better in some way -- at least to the extent one should know about them. There's no wall between Reno and Las Vegas.

    I don't want to harp too much on this, but it is odd. Now maybe Moses is older, and his driving, or at least big city driving, is an issue. Maybe Argentino also has issues with city driving. Las Vegas, to me, is pretty easy driving-wise, at least compared to D.C. or Atlanta, but I can see it being problematic. I just find it very, very odd that some posters hunker down in Reno and find Las Vegas radioactive. In Argentino's case, it's really strange, as he lived in Las Vegas for a long stretch, so I have to think something happened, marker-wise or reputationally, that makes him persona non grata. Or maybe his family doesn't want him there, for various reasons.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Moses have you been to Vegas, because it seems like you have no clue about Vegas. I count more than two dozen strip casinos and all have multiple blackjack tables, usually right next to each other. And we are talking many more tables than 2. Many of these casinos even have multiple pits.

    Then add in downtown. I am counting 9 casinos with multiple BJ tables next to each other.

    Off strip, just going to randomly list casinos with multiple tables next to each other that are open most of the time. Southpoint, The M, Green Valley Ranch, Silverton, Sunset station, Alainte, Fiesta Rancho, fiesta Henderson, Texas station, Lucky Club, Sam's town, Red Rock, Palace Station, Suncoast, Rampart, Sante Fe, Tuscany, Ellis island, Gold coast, Rio, Palms, Orleans, Hard Rock, Silver 7, Westgate.

    That is just off the top of my head. Now I am not saying all these are in my rotation. Some are not for various reasons, heat, poor penetration, Hard Rock is all 6:5. My rotation is between 30-36 casinos at any time. The majority of these have that potential and not just on weekends. As a matter of fact, weekends present the lesser opportunities because of more crowded conditions.

    But you know what Moses...don't believe it. And don't employ this technique. Makes no difference to me and the other players that you know that employ this technique.
    Good report without the smart ass remarks. As I said, one would probably have to live in Vegas for this to work. I watched games in the one place this opportunity exists all day yesterday. Getting a seat at a table would be an accomplishment in itself. Let alone trying to Wong. Counting two tables would be virtually impossible and then getting a spot if the count turned positive would be rare.

    No, I would not fly or drive to Vegas just to pursue this endeavor for a 3 to 5 day venture a few times a year. The idea of making $100k a year or losing $29K a week with a $500 average large bet reaches far beyond my level of risk. Of course, these guys who fly in NEVER lose. HA! They couldn't afford to.

    Now Alan and others who live in Vegas have a layout to see for themselves. If you walk thru 12 casinos a day it shouldn't take more than 3 days. Or get a couple of buddies and do it in a day...then you'll know. No? I may check it out for myself one of these days.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I guess I'm surprised at the number of people who do not visit Las Vegas. If you're gambling, it seems an odd thing to live and gamble in Reno and be unaware of what goes on a few miles south. I have driven cross-country quite a few times, so I find it surprising that Reno residents find Las Vegas (and Fresno residents find LA) to be alien territories. Maybe it's me. When I lived in Pennsylvania, the idea of loading up a car and driving to Florida for a week didn't seem daunting; it seemed like fun.

    I'm not just talking about Moses here. Argentino seems to have real issues with Las Vegas. I've had clients in Sacramento who drove over the mountains to Reno, but these folks were also quite familiar with Las Vegas, so this Reno/Las Vegas divide seems incongruous to me.

    Why, if you're seriously gambling in Reno, would you not make yourself intimately familiar with what is available in Las Vegas? Las Vegas obviously offers more and different opportunities. The likelihood is that some would be better in some way -- at least to the extent one should know about them. There's no wall between Reno and Las Vegas.

    I don't want to harp too much on this, but it is odd. Now maybe Moses is older, and his driving, or at least big city driving, is an issue. Maybe Argentino also has issues with city driving. Las Vegas, to me, is pretty easy driving-wise, at least compared to D.C. or Atlanta, but I can see it being problematic. I just find it very, very odd that some posters hunker down in Reno and find Las Vegas radioactive. In Argentino's case, it's really strange, as he lived in Las Vegas for a long stretch, so I have to think something happened, marker-wise or reputationally, that makes him persona non grata. Or maybe his family doesn't want him there, for various reasons.
    It's about an 8 hour drive on a two lane highway through the middle of nowhere. Easy to get speeding tickets approaching or in the ghost towns along the way. Usually, you have to catch a connecting flight in LA in order to get to Vegas. So you're out a half a day at least and the cost. Then you've got to rent a car and pay at least a resort fee for a room and stand in line forever, or stay at Super 8, or with my cousin and his fam.

    Vegas offers no single deck blackjack and are very uptight on the double deck games from what I've read. I can bet the same sports at the same price here in Reno and get comps. I can sleep in my own bed, put my toes in front of my own fireplace, or drive my own car within 10 minutes to get to the furthest point which makes it very easy to get the best deal on overnight lines and/or as odds change throughout the day. I get free rooms with a spa and free meals and free drinks just about whenever I want. I'm fairly well connected, so I can get tickets free or very cheap for just about any show, fight, event, or games I want to see.

    Why would I want to leave again?
    Last edited by Moses; 12-02-2018 at 09:07 AM.

  6. #6
    Ok, there seems to be this misconception that I am advocating for or encouraging people or players to come to Vegas, move to Vegas and/or attempt to play in the manner that I play. I don't feel like I have ever done that. I don't remember ever suggesting anyone move to Vegas. I simply have shared my experiences and tried to do so fairly, good and bad.

    In this specific situation, I relocated to Vegas after I had worn out my welcome in Atlantic City where I played the first 5+ years of my career. I was determined to learn from that experience and not make the same mistakes, so I tailored a plan specifically designed for Vegas and the 'strength of Las Vegas'. Here's a 'bigplayer' quote for you: "The advantage of Las Vegas is quantity, not quality".

    So my plan of attack involved short sessions, moving around a lot to take advantage of the large quantity of games in close proximity. As part of that quantity, there are many casinos with multiple tables. And because conditions are often less crowded from back east where I came, a player can often track the second table, not with 100% accuracy, but enough accuracy to insure an advantage often a significant advantage.

    And let me say right here and now, before Alan jumps on that accuracy comment, that card counter's never have 100% accuracy or 100% of the information. Not since before I was born when single deck games were dealt down to the last card. So don't even go there. You don't need 100% accuracy or 100% available information to gain an advantage, that has been mathematically proven beyond a doubt (except by people that refuse to reside in reality).


    Now I want to take this a step further than the tracking two tables, because there are a few players running around these forums, trashing me, because they attempted to follow in my footsteps, several even moving to Las Vegas, and blame me for things not working out for them. I never, never ever suggested or even encouraged anyone to follow in my footsteps. Never encouraged anyone to attempt to play blackjack or AP in any manner professionally. Never suggested anyone move to Las Vegas. I mean why would I? Players moving to Las Vegas and doing or attempting to do what I do, has ZERO upside for me, only negative consequences. I simply decided to share my experiences and some of my techniques, tailored for me and my situation.

    And there has only been negative consequences for doing so. All the attacks and attempts to discredit me across various forums. I am a big boy or so I have been told (ok never really been told that...lol) and I can handle the trollish jealousy name calling. But I don't accept this idea that I am responsible for anyone else, so just stop with that crap. As a matter of fact let me be as clear as I can. I don't encourage anyone to do what I do or try any of the techniques that I have tailored for my situation. You do so at your own peril.

    I simply am sharing some things I do and what has worked for me. If some players can benefit from that and incorporate some of these things successfully into their own game...great. If not that is probably even better (for me). So those that think this particular technique can't be done or isn't for them...don't do it! But get off my back.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 12-02-2018 at 09:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Ok, there seems to be this misconception that I am advocating for or encouraging people or players to come to Vegas, move to Vegas and/or attempt to play in the manner that I play. I don't feel like I have ever done that. I don't remember ever suggesting anyone move to Vegas. I simply have shared my experiences and tried to do so fairly, good and bad..
    Good point. Easy to see how one could misinterpret. You were a bleeding heart for the newbies for a long time.


    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    So my plan of attack involved short sessions, moving around a lot to take advantage of the large quantity of games in close proximity. As part of that quantity, there are many casinos with multiple tables. And because conditions are often less crowded from back east where I came, a player can often track the second table, not with 100% accuracy, but enough accuracy to insure an advantage often a significant advantage.
    Now players can and should see for themselves.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And let me say right here and now, before Alan jumps on that accuracy comment, that card counter's never have 100% accuracy or 100% of the information. Not since before I was born when single deck games were dealt down to the last card. So don't even go there. You don't need 100% accuracy or 100% available information to gain an advantage, that has been mathematically proven beyond a doubt (except by people that refuse to reside in reality)...
    Mr. Thorp had it easy. A ten count ratio was enough. He didn't do a column count or percentage count because he didn't need that extra advantage with all cards being played and not being limited on size and frequency of large bets. I didn't need it either with a 15 to 1 spread. But I sure got bounced a lot. . Another misconception is many assume a threshold is an advantage. HUGE difference and vital to recognize the difference.


    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Players moving to Las Vegas and doing or attempting to do what I do, has ZERO upside for me, only negative consequences. I simply decided to share my experiences and some of my techniques, tailored for me and my situation..
    And where is the upside in that?



    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And there has only been negative consequences for doing so. All the attacks and attempts to discredit me across various forums. I am a big boy or so I have been told (ok never really been told that...lol).
    Well by got, just how big an ole boy are ya? lol

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    and I can handle the trollish jealousy name calling
    And what is the upside in that? People are on you like red ants on a milk shake straw.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But I don't accept this idea that I am responsible for anyone else, so just stop with that crap. As a matter of fact let me be as clear as I can. I don't encourage anyone to do what I do or try any of the techniques that I have tailored for my situation. You do so at your own peril.
    I simply am sharing some things I do and what has worked for me. If some players can benefit from that and incorporate some of these things successfully into their own game...great. If not that is probably even better (for me). So those that think this particular technique can't be done or isn't for them...don't do it! But get off my back.
    Of course you are responsible when you make these claims. Exactly why I don't give my picks. I still catch crap about in a game in July...and we won. lol Nobody would be on your back if you didn't post it in the first place. IF you put it out there then the bad comes with the good. T3 is a prime example. I wish just once you or Bosox would ask him what tag values he assigns to the cards. Or invite him over and I'll ask him myself.


    Quick funny story. The greatest handicapper on earth. The first football game this year was Wyoming at New Mexico State. The line came out about 3 weeks or so in advance. So we had to listen for 3 weeks about how New Mexico State would destroy Wyoming. Of course Wyoming won 29-7 and we didn't see him for about two weeks.
    Last edited by Moses; 12-02-2018 at 11:10 AM.

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