Harrah's Ak-Chin 25x TIER Multiplier

[Dan Druff]

I'm having a hard time believing Caesars will follow thru on the multiplier when and if a couple dozen people do 7 Stars in a day.

I think you're right -- sort of. They'll follow through on the multiplier, but just leave these people at "high Diamond".

Recall this e-mail someone received when attempting to become Seven Stars:




This may very well happen to anyone who earns the vast majority of tier credits through this promo.

It's possible mine would go easier (since I'm just maintaining Seven Stars, rather than "upgrading" to it), but I could easily see Seven Stars being denied.

I may not do this after all.

[pkspins]

I'm having a hard time believing Caesars will follow thru on the multiplier when and if a couple dozen people do 7 Stars in a day.

I think you're right -- sort of. They'll follow through on the multiplier, but just leave these people at "high Diamond".

Recall this e-mail someone received when attempting to become Seven Stars:




This may very well happen to anyone who earns the vast majority of tier credits through this promo.

It's possible mine would go easier (since I'm just maintaining Seven Stars, rather than "upgrading" to it), but I could easily see Seven Stars being denied.

I may not do this after all.

#s 3 and 4 are new news, correct? I don't recall ever hearing those two criteria mentioned anywhere. All I ever heard were the first two, both here and the casino sources I had.
Those two criteria lend a lot of uncertainty to achieving Seven Stars - not to the nebulous level of Noir, but no longer the sure thing it used to be.
I agree - you should think twice about going to Ak-Chin, especially due to #4.

[skyscanner]

[skyscanner]

Regarding the invitation to 7* and the Ak-Chin promotion, I spoke to 3 Las Vegas hosts today.

Host 1 said getting upgraded to 7* via this promotion would be very unfair to the other 99% of Seven Stars players who drop half a million per year in the casinos. Advised me to ask the Ak-Chin to upgrade me, as it is unlikely any Las Vegas casino would.

Host 2 looked at the promotion in detail and mentioned several Diamond players she has with more that 150K TPs will never receive the invitation because of the issue of the credit lines. I learned that it would be my dominant property (the Rio) that would or would not send me the invitation to 7* and not the Ak-Chin. More specifically, it is the VP for marketing that would make the decision.

Host 3 said that if there were no multipliers, no one would reach 7*, and that I would definitely receive the invitation. She said I had some negative comments from the Rio in 2017 for not playing much, but that my account is in no way suspended, it is just "upside down" for taking too much advantage of my comps and not playing, but that earning 5,000 TPs in a day would revert that.

I also called Total Rewards Central and they said that 7* is an exclusive club, by invitation only and that they will look at my "overall play and activity at the property" before upgrading me.

[Slyfox56]

A bunch of interesting and useful info on this thread!

I am going to Ak-Chin for the event. I have been a very low level (gold TR) blackjack player for years. My mom has been 7* for years and has been trying to convince me to become 7*. A couple of months ago I decided to go for it because we live very close to Harrahs So Cal and could take full advange of free daily buffets and all the food comps. So I did my research and learned that VP is the best way to earn TC so I have been playing VP at So Cal for a couple of months taking advantage of TC matches and I am now over 50,000 TC. My mom heard about the Ak-Chin promo and so I decided to go there and earn 7*. I have been scouring the internet for info and here are some areas where info is contradictory or unknown about the event:

1) some reported here that all TC from that day including 25x bonus would apply to making 7* in 2018. On the Seven Stars Insider site it is explicitly stated that the TC bonus would apply toward 2019. That site is usually pretty accurate so now which do we think is true?
2) I still don’t know if it takes $25 in to earn one TC in the better paying VP machines - from every thing I have read this is not uncommon at CER properties. At So Cal you get 1 TC/$10 for ALL VP machines whereas slots are 1 TC/$5
3) something that hasn’t been brought up at all - at So Cal whenever they do RC bonuses, VP is always capped at 5X no matter what the slot bonus is. One night I could have gotten 12x RC if I was playing slots but only 5x for VP. I am wondering if they would stoop so low as to put some cap like that on VP TC multiplier the day of the event?
4). The whole idea that they could decide to deny 7* really threw me. What do you guys think? Since I only have been playing heavy for a couple of months and have never even reached platinum before and since my home casino is So Cal do you think they’ll deny me entry into 7*? During the last couple of months since I have really been going aggressively for TC I have only lost about $800.
5) I am also concerned that all the machines will be reserved and it wont matter what time you get there in the AM. As a Diamond I can also reserve machines although I have never done it before - should I try to reserve a machine?

Again, thanks for all the great info and I hope we can get all the details nailed down before we get there!

[Alan Mendelson]

This thing about being denied Seven Stars despite having earned 150.000 tier points is relatively new and it's really not clear if this is widespread or just something that happened to one person.

I've always been under the impression that if you had the points you got Seven Stars unless you had a real problem such as failing to pay markers or getting into a physical fight with casino staff... serious stuff. While Seven Stars has always said it was by invitation I thought everyone got invited.

I'd really like to see more evidence of a sea change in the Seven Stars program. I already know I won't be Seven Stars in 2019 because I have had zero play at Caesars this entire year. But I've already confirmed I will be high diamond in 2019 because of play in December 2017 which gave me 2018 points.

Bottom line is you're going to have to investigate this yourself and make your own decision.

[Slyfox56]

Bottom line is you're going to have to investigate this yourself and make your own decision.

Well I will be finding out. I’ll update this thread as I go along with what hapens while I am at Ak-Chin and what happens with me becoming 7* (or not).

[skyscanner]

A bunch of interesting and useful info on this thread!



1) some reported here that all TC from that day including 25x bonus would apply to making 7* in 2018. On the Seven Stars Insider site it is explicitly stated that the TC bonus would apply toward 2019. That site is usually pretty accurate so now which do we think is true?

No, they apply towards 2018. Verified over the phone with their TR desk


2) I still don’t know if it takes $25 in to earn one TC in the better paying VP machines - from every thing I have read this is not uncommon at CER properties. At So Cal you get 1 TC/$10 for ALL VP machines whereas slots are 1 TC/$5


They are all 10$/TP


3) something that hasn’t been brought up at all - at So Cal whenever they do RC bonuses, VP is always capped at 5X no matter what the slot bonus is. One night I could have gotten 12x RC if I was playing slots but only 5x for VP. I am wondering if they would stoop so low as to put some cap like that on VP TC multiplier the day of the event?


No, all gaming will be 25X


4). The whole idea that they could decide to deny 7* really threw me. What do you guys think? Since I only have been playing heavy for a couple of months and have never even reached platinum before and since my home casino is So Cal do you think they’ll deny me entry into 7*? During the last couple of months since I have really been going aggressively for TC I have only lost about $800.


Check with your host for negative remarks on your account.


5) I am also concerned that all the machines will be reserved and it wont matter what time you get there in the AM. As a Diamond I can also reserve machines although I have never done it before - should I try to reserve a machine?

They do have 130 VP machines and people are not robots, they can not play for the whole 24h.

[Alan Mendelson]

How long can people play for? I think people can and do play for 24 hours or even longer. All that's needed is a nearby floor person to guard your machine while you take a restroom break and a cocktail waitress to bring you water and glasses of OJ to keep your blood sugar up.

[Rob.Singer]

The more this goes on the more misinformation appears.

I have a friend in Mesa who is a current Seven Stars and I called him last night to discuss this stupid promotion as well as a few other things. I've been that level around 2012 so I wanted to see if anything has seriously changed too.

7-Stars is not by invitation only and has never been. Where did that lie come from?

You never ask hosts in another city about a promotion going on somewhere else in the CET family of casinos and expect to get intelligent information. A real head-shaker.

It's well known ak-chin has relatively few vp machines, and all but 2 (if they're still there) have pathetic pay tables. No one in their right mind would bother with this event. In case no one knows, the Phx. area (and ESPECIALLY down there near Maricopa) is now completely saturated with people. Why would any of you think you could just waltz into town and to a casino who's hotel is nearby millions of people who mostly make lots of money and has been sold out on that date for a long time....and get a vp machine at will or even be able to reserve one? And who reserves machines with 6/5 BP, 8/5 DDBP, and 7/5 job anyway?

You people do like to dream and not think.

[Dan Druff]

This thing about being denied Seven Stars despite having earned 150.000 tier points is relatively new and it's really not clear if this is widespread or just something that happened to one person.

I've always been under the impression that if you had the points you got Seven Stars unless you had a real problem such as failing to pay markers or getting into a physical fight with casino staff... serious stuff. While Seven Stars has always said it was by invitation I thought everyone got invited.

I'd really like to see more evidence of a sea change in the Seven Stars program. I already know I won't be Seven Stars in 2019 because I have had zero play at Caesars this entire year. But I've already confirmed I will be high diamond in 2019 because of play in December 2017 which gave me 2018 points.

Bottom line is you're going to have to investigate this yourself and make your own decision.

Off topic, but you won't be "High Diamond" in 2019. You will just be Diamond. High Diamond (Aspirations) only applies for the current calendar year that you earned it.

For example, I believe you will not be able to access Diamond lounges if you did not earn 25k tier points in 2018.

[Alan Mendelson]

My points earned in December 2017 gave me 41,000 points for 2018.

[Dan Druff]

You want a good laugh?

I called Ak-Chin on Tuesday night and got a very nice woman in the slot department. I actually talked her into going and checking several machines, including the multi-plays, and sending me the info.

She then tasked some other employee to do it, who screwed up and only noted the machine number and whether it was 1, 3, 5, or 10 pay, but not the paytables. This guy made a PDF file with that information.

She received this minutes before she was leaving to go home, and then called me and told me of the mistake, but told me that she would send what they had anyway, and would try to hand-write in the paytables. However, she would re-organize the document and send me a much better one on Wednesday.

I was very grateful and thanked her profusely. Upon seeing the document, it was a mess and very hard to understand. However, knowing she was going to re-organize it, I politely asked for her to also list a few other elements of the pay table, and not just the flush/full house, for Bonus Poker and Deuces.

She didn't respond on Wednesday.

I sent her an e-mail politely asking if she got my previous e-mail, and still no response.

I have a feeling that someone told her she was giving away too much info, and not to answer me. It's so weird how she went from super helpful (to the point of making a PDF file of a table of machines) to totally ghosting me.

I noticed the person who wrote to skyscanner listed the flush/full house paytables also, and left out some relevant info as well.

Interesting about the $35/spin limit in Arizona. I didn't know about that.

[Dan Druff]

Regarding whether you will be granted Seven Stars, that's pretty much impossible to determine at this point, as evidenced by the extremely varied answers received by skyscanner when he talked to three different hosts in Vegas.

It's typical Caesars -- nobody knows what's going on, and half the time you're getting completely incorrect info.

I'll go over your chances of being "approved" for Seven Stars through this play, based upon your existing status:

If you earned 150,000 tiers or more in 2017, and you were somewhat actively playing in 2018, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal is VERY GOOD. This is because there was no "lapse" in earning. You will have earned 150k tiers in consecutive years, you played somewhat actively in between, and the decision will simply be to maintain your Seven Stars, rather than promote you.

If you earned 150,000 tiers or more in 2017, but were mostly inactive in 2018 until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal are MEDIOCRE. On one hand, you will have earned 150k tiers in consecutive years without a lapse, but on the other hand, they will see a clear pattern of barely playing enough to earn Seven Stars, then shutting down play, and then barely earning Seven Stars again at the 11th hour, via a multiplier promotion. There is a fair chance they will see you as an earn-then-quit player, and may deny you, especially since 2018's earnings would only be based on 5600 base tier credits (barely enough for Diamond in most cases!)

If you were not Seven Stars in 2018, but were mostly active in 2018 until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars renewal are MEDIOCRE. On one hand, you don't show a pattern of earning Seven Stars and then shutting down. You also show a history of normally active play, but not enough for Seven Stars. Unfortunately, they might not want to grant you "new" Seven Stars based upon tiers earned via a 25x promotion, so you might be denied.

If you were not Seven Stars in 2018, and had little play this year until this promotion, your chances of being approved for Seven Stars are LOW. They probably will not want to crown a new Seven Stars based upon this play alone. The one exception is if your dominant property is Ak-Chin anyway, since it's their promotion, and since they probably don't give a crap about promoting Caesars Seven Stars unjustifiably, since they are not part of the Caesars corporation.


So who makes the decision?

Unfortunately, it's a supervisor at your dominant property.

And it's very hit-and-miss.

Some supervisors are lazy and just rubber stamp anyone to Seven Stars who have the 150k tiers and no issues in their history (such as unpaid markers or security incidents).

Other supervisors scrutinize it and deny people based upon the perception that they're bonus/comp whores.

There's also some degree of luck, regarding how busy the supervisor is on that particular day.

Unfortunately, if that report I posted earlier from September 2018 is credible, they are starting to scrutinize Seven Stars applications more this year, perhaps in line with the new attitude that they are trying to get rid of the 20% of customers who are "unprofitable".

It is very possible that supervisors are now under pressure to carefully look at the recent history of anyone looking to get Seven Stars granted or renewed, and to deny anyone without a consistent play history and good ADT (average daily theoretical).

Remember, the program is constantly changing. In 2018, they removed the most valuable Seven Stars benefit -- the guaranteed free 4 night stay at any time.

[Dan Druff]

It is also important to ask yourself WHY you want to be Seven Stars, as opposed to just Diamond.

If it's for better offers/freeplay, don't bother. Being Seven Stars will not improve that. That's based upon your ADT and MDV (marketing daily value), and has nothing to do with tiers.

If it's for more room comps, don't bother. Once again, that's based on your ADT/MDV, and not your tier level.

If it's to avoid resort fees, it might be worth something. Diamond only allows you to avoid resort fees, but doesn't always get you free internet. Seven Stars avoids the resort fees AND gets you free internet (plus one movie per day).

If it's to get free room upgrades, it might be worth something. However, note that they will only upgrade Seven Stars to the best available non-suite. If you're looking for suite upgrades, being Seven Stars won't help you that much, unless your ADT/MDV are good, too.

If it's to skip lines, don't bother. Diamond will accomplish that just as well.

If it's to access lounges, don't bother in most markets. Diamond at 25k tiers or higher will get you into those lounges (except in a few places with specific Seven Stars lounges).

If it's to get the "free" cruise, I understand. However, note that the cruise is NOT free, and instead is just heavily discounted. You will probably only save about $600 or so per person on fare ($1200 total).

If it's to get the $500 in food vouchers, I understand. But be aware that it's still only worth $500 at most, so not worth losing a ton of money to earn.

If it's to get the $1200 airfare and $500 folio credit (or alternately, the 50,000 RCs) for the annual trip, I understand. However, again, be aware that this is worth at most $1700, and you have to spend it on airfare and food.

If you simply want the status where exceptions are made for you and favors are done for you sometimes, I understand. But be aware that there are limits to this, and you only can really use the "I'm a Seven Stars, help me out here" line for small exceptions to rules or small favors.

BOTTOM LINE: Do not think that earning Seven Stars is going to suddenly entitle you to lavish comps, countless free suites, and amazing offers. It won't.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan I really don't think you are in any position whatsoever to tell people if they will or won't make Seven Stars based on this promotion or if their play will be judged accordingly to frequency, etc.

There has been nothing but rumour about changes to the Seven Stars program and there has been just one email that has gotten all the attention.

The fair and honest thing to say is there are rumours and no one really knows if there are changes or no changes. There could be changes and that's a fair warning to consider.

The fact is that Seven Stars was ALWAYS promoted as an invitation only benefit, BUT IN REALITY if you got the points you got Seven Stars. Now, is that changing? We really don't know.

About that email that's getting so much attention: that could have been a polite way to tell a player with "other problems" that their Seven Stars is not being renewed and for LEGAL REASONS the casino manager is not putting the "real reasons" in the email.

The best advice is to be aware of possible changes and Seven Stars is a comp and you should never play for comps.

[Dan Druff]

From the crude table they sent me, I may have been able to identify a single $1 five-play machine ($25/hand) with:

9-5 JoB (98.45%)
6-5 BP (96.87%)
4-3 Deuces (unknown %, I need to know other payouts)

If that's the case, running the 9-5 JoB wouldn't be horrible, though I'd prefer the 25/15/9/4/4/3 Deuces (98.91%) for both payout and variance reasons. I know that Deuces exists there, but supposedly it's only $1 one-play, so the multiplay deuces may be worse.

If you do run the 9-5 JoB, note that the non-royal return is just 96.46%, and the non-royal-and-straight-flush return is just 95.92%.

That means if you run $56,000 coin-in and fail to hit a royal or straight flush (which can EASILY happen running just 2240 multiway hands), then your average loss would be $2285. And you could easily drop over $3k if you run bad, and over $5k if you run really bad.

For reference, you will hit a straight flush about once every 9300 hands, and a royal about once every 40,000 hands. Obviously doing 5-play increases your odds (not sure by how much, never worked that out), but it's actually a lot MORE variance than running 5 times as many single-play hands. This is because 5-play places a huge reliance on getting dealt good hands, and the smoother variance on the draw part doesn't make up for it enough.

Anyway, I believe it is more likely than not that when running 2240 five-play hands, you will fail to get either a straight flush or a royal.

[Dan Druff]

Dan I really don't think you are in any position whatsoever to tell people if they will or won't make Seven Stars based on this promotion or if their play will be judged accordingly to frequency, etc.

There has been nothing but rumour about changes to the Seven Stars program and there has been just one email that has gotten all the attention.

The fair and honest thing to say is there are rumours and no one really knows if there are changes or no changes. There could be changes and that's a fair warning to consider.

The fact is that Seven Stars was ALWAYS promoted as an invitation only benefit, BUT IN REALITY if you got the points you got Seven Stars. Now, is that changing? We really don't know.

About that email that's getting so much attention: that could have been a polite way to tell a player with "other problems" that their Seven Stars is not being renewed and for LEGAL REASONS the casino manager is not putting the "real reasons" in the email.

The best advice is to be aware of possible changes and Seven Stars is a comp and you should never play for comps.

Obviously things are changing, and I'm only taking a guess. That's why I'm saying things like "VERY GOOD", "MEDIOCRE", "LOW", etc. Notice that none of that involves certainty.

I think it's important for people to understand that there is a difference between their likelihood for approval, based upon their existing circumstances.

I would NOT recommend an inactive player showing up for this promo, earning 150k tiers through the multiplier, and expecting Seven Stars out of it.

An existing Seven Stars who has played fairly actively but still only earned 75k prior to this likely has a pretty good chance of being renewed.

I'm trying to set realistic expectations. I don't have a crystal ball and can only guess from what I've seen in the past.

Regarding that e-mail I posted from the guy who got rejected for Seven Stars, it is possible that he's one of those Atlantic City super comp whores. There are some people in the AC market who literally live at CET properties by getting a second person to also earn Seven Stars, and alternating bookings every 4 days. Then they stay in the room together all year. Sounds like a miserable existence, huh?

Anyway, it's because of people like that why they killed the room benefit.

If this dude is one of those guys, I can see why they would have denied his re-earning of Seven Stars.

However, I don't understand why he would have earned it in September, as that is sub-optimal, and not what you'd expect of a comp whore.

I don't think he had other issues at the property. I do believe it was likely due to some form of comp abuse and little play outside of the earning of the status.

I also think the e-mail is likely authentic, for reasons I won't bother getting into.

[Dan Druff]

There is also the concern that the place is going to get mobbed and all the decent and semi-decent VP machines will be hogged the entire day.

That would be a real pisser to travel all the way there and find that.

This is likely the biggest potential problem with showing up for this promo.

[Alan Mendelson]

Being realistic, the #1 benefit of Seven Stars in the past was the free room benefit. Once that was restricted the value of Seven Stars dropped dramatically.