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Thread: Maintaining Seven Stars

  1. #1
    Happy New Year Everyone!

    As a newly invited (haha!) Seven Stars player, my mind is now turning to how best to maintain being Seven Stars if I so choose.

    First a little bit about me (this will help to explain the naive questions I ask below). I am a middle-aged smart woman with a full time job (scientist in drug development) who enjoys playing but has always been (until the last 2 months) a very casual player. I research every game I play and try to understand and execute the best strategy to play but I am definitely not an AP (ie I don't count cards in BJ, or drive many miles to get the very best odds machine for VP). I am more of a card player (gravitate to BJ and VP), don't play slots at all, and don't know much at this point about other casino games. I also understand that unless I am an AP, that if I start gaming a lot more that I will have to expect eventual losses overall.

    I really have two questions:

    Do any of you have tips or tricks on earning TPs for for the smallest amount of loss? For example, are there any games besides VP that you would play to build TP (I am open to expanding the repertoire of games I play). Or is there is a good way to run money through certain types of games to build points while minimizing losses. It seems like low variance, low house percentage games would be the best for this purpose, but they also have to be some form of machine game because how they award TP at the tables really sucks

    I already know about TP bonuses and my plan was to play about 20 sessions of VP to earn 2500 TP and get the 5000 bonus TP which would put me there. Also I plan to play on Thursdays because So Cal offers 5x reward credits (RC) every Thursday and I think it is fair to call those RC an offset to losses. I also know I likely won't have to play all 20 sessions because of TC promotions that are offered from time to time.

    Next question, is there any good way to manage the bankroll/money thing? What I am thinking about most here is that it seems to me that the only way you might not have a loss with VP is by getting a royal flush and eventually over the very long haul those don't make a difference either. So should I just expect I could be down $10-15K or lower at some point playing $5 VP and that's just the way it is?

    Finally a question about expected loss in VP. On the other thread there were a couple of comments about my expected loss for VP when I was playing the 25x promo. Alan and DD: Are you just doing a straight calculation of money run through machine x house percentage to get that figure? Also, I would be really interested in understanding how to calculate the range around that number based on variance/SD of a particular game. I read somewhere else that its a skewed distribution for VP, but those that play VP seriously they likely have a pretty good experiential understanding.

    If you get this far, thanks for even taking the time to read all my newbie comments/questions. Cause as was said on another active thread - (paraphrasing) what idiot APs would actually want to be helpful to newbies?!

  2. #2
    Table games will give you low tier points. If you're playing for points avoid table games.
    Not a member, effective January 28, 2019

  3. #3
    so I just found a 2014 thread on just about the same subject -it will be interesting to see if anything changes in the advice given or strategy now that we are 5 years later

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Table games will give you low tier points. If you're playing for points avoid table games.

    I agree with you about table games.

    So in the an earlier thread (2014) I found where you said that you would play some VP games even with higher variance because of the potential to make more money on the quads. Do you still feel that way?

    I am currently playing Aces Faces most of the time which is less variance than something like DB but more than JoB and does offer better payouts on some quads. What game do you like best now, considering that a lot has changed in VP over 5 years (new games, loss of many good pay table machines, etc)? Also for that type of machine do you set stop-loss or win limits or have some other way you manage the money each session and over time?

    Thanks in advance!

  5. #5
    When I used to play at Rincon I played Aces and Faces and Royal Aces Bonus. I also played their double double bonus $5 progressive BEFORE they downgraded the pay table.

    On Royal Aces Bonus I usually played at $1. Quad aces paid $4,000.
    Not a member, effective January 28, 2019

  6. #6
    Read this and tell me if you have any questions: https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sh...-around-the-US
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  7. #7
    I'd consider some slot play.
    There's the whole area of AP on these that has gotten a lot of discussion here, where you look for high progressives and such. That requires a lot of knowledge and observation and could be an option if that catches your interest, but that whole area is geared more toward a goal of net win toward winning the progressive by investing what it takes, rather than coin churning with a defined small max loss to get maximum points with minimal loss which I think is your main goal.
    For coin churning it would be multi line reels - the old school kind not the new flashy ones, with 9 lines on 5 reels or 5 lines on 3 reels - or 2 credit one line reels like Quick Hits - either $1 denomination (so $9/$5/$2 max bet) or $5 denomination for the 2 credit so $10 max. The RC multipliers I used to play didn't count VP so I used to churn out TCs on these. There's a lot of little wins plus the occasional big win so at worst I'd get a lot of TCs before you lose your money (I'd put $60 or $100 max in a $2 max bet, $300 in $5/$9/$10) or I'd keep winning and play until I got bored and moved on.
    If this is something that interests you I can expand with a more detailed explanation of what type of machines I mean.

  8. #8
    Play $1 multi line VP to smooth out the variance rather than $5 single line. 5000 tier per day, 10 days= 150,000.

    $10,000 bankroll is probably enough on Job or Bonus poker, if you hit a Royal or two you may well end up a winner.

  9. #9
    Thanks for the info Dankyone. I thought I had read that there was more variance in the multi-line games? And that if you could find a single line, good pay table at $5 that was a better way to go?
    Last edited by Slyfox56; 01-02-2019 at 10:54 AM.

  10. #10
    This is interesting pkspins and I have considered some slot play to supplement doing it through VP.

    My mom is a Seven Stars slot player and she actually does pretty well. She was telling me about some machines that do basically what you are saying here (TC builder with minimum input and less loss). She even made the exact same comment you did- "just play until you're bored and then move on"! She also mentioned the 9 line older games.

    If you know the names of the specific machines you are talking about above that would be great!

  11. #11
    If Rincon still has 8/5 Aces and Faces it's probably your best video poker play. I haven't been there in a couple of years but when they downgraded Bonus Poker they left Aces and Faces at 8/5 on the $5 single line games.
    Not a member, effective January 28, 2019

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If Rincon still has 8/5 Aces and Faces it's probably your best video poker play. I haven't been there in a couple of years but when they downgraded Bonus Poker they left Aces and Faces at 8/5 on the $5 single line games.
    Yes! They still have them and that is what I have been playing. Thank you! What's kind of weird it that there are only 4 of theses machines in the casino (all side by side) and nobody is ever playing them - go figure.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Read this and tell me if you have any questions: https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/sh...-around-the-US
    Thanks Dan for this SUPER helpful information! I think that pretty much answered all my questions. I only have a couple of minor ones left:

    Considering the number of hands of VP that have to be played to reach Seven Stars assuming the 1 TC/$10 and using the bonus method (2500 TC gives you 5000 TC) on a $5 standard type machine (like Aces and Faces) are you in the range of enough hands to hit a Royal?

    I think this would be 20,000 hands total to get the 150,000 total TC?

    I realize that one can hit a Royal at any time but trying to think about "on average."

    My other question is: When I was a Ak-Chin - I was seeing machines that were 10 coin in rather than 5. Why do they have these and are the pay tables looked at any differently or just divide everything by 2 in the pay table to calculate the return? I also saw the ones with extra one or two coin in so now I know what that is about!

    Also I think that the info on your other thread for So Cal needs to be updated - VPFREE2 is accurate except for one machine type missing (A-C-E-S).

  14. #14
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    Hi Slyfox:

    The best concentration of good video poker in the CET empire is in Lake Tahoe. I also believe that at the end of each year points accumulated (after October) usually have some kind bonus points for the next year. You should keep that in mind as you plan on your subsequent Seven Stars quest in 2019. Finally, I second Dan druff's hyperlink on that previous discussion as the best basic source for making Seven Stars.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    This is interesting pkspins and I have considered some slot play to supplement doing it through VP.

    My mom is a Seven Stars slot player and she actually does pretty well. She was telling me about some machines that do basically what you are saying here (TC builder with minimum input and less loss). She even made the exact same comment you did- "just play until you're bored and then move on"! She also mentioned the 9 line older games.

    If you know the names of the specific machines you are talking about above that would be great!

    I don't remember all the names but I dug out some pictures for examples, and there's lots of variants in terms of symbols and names. They're all wins because those are the pictures I took, so the extremes of when coin churning turns into profit. You can win and you can lose and you can break even - it's gambling. I just keep my maximum input into a machine to a minimum - like maybe 30-40 spins worth of cash for $2-$5, less spins but maybe $300 or so for higher denominations, because if you aren't treading water by then you aren't going to be.

    EDITED TO ADD - sorry all these pictures are sideways and huge, I don't think I've uploaded here before and don't have time to redo right now.

    Quick Hits 2 credit. I've seen $1 and $5 denomination. For $5 you want the one where 3 QH on the line is $50K not the one that is $10K. Other than that for coin churn purposes either the ones that have an individual machine progressive for the 3 QH anywhere or the ones that just pay a standard $1k are fine. The ones in banks where the progressive is linked don't work as well. The progressives pay all over the place so I don't sweat those.

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    9 line 5 reels. Ones without progressives or bells and whistles stuff like respins, the ones that are versions of 3 reel one line traditional slots like Double Gold, Double or Double Triple Diamond, Double/Triple Strike, Red Hot Sevens, Triple Stars etc.. Ones with free games features can be ok but are more volatile. Here are some examples. As you can see from the denominations they aren't necessarily in HL rooms and are multi denom machines on the regular floor. There are $1 variants, so $9 max bet, in HL or outside HL at many casinos - like CP in LV has a ton of old ones in the slot area between the circular HL area and the cage around where the VP bank is near the restrooms. There are 20 line variants that look the same but I always seem to lose my money faster on those.
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    20 line 3 reels - typically lower denomination so the TC rack up slower but loss is usually minimal. More play for a while and if you win big run.
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    20 line 5 reels - on the regular slot floor with multi denomination. Same rules about progressives and types as the 9 line 5 reels above
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    9 line or 5 line 3 reel machines. The 9 line on the first picture I don't see too much, but the 5 line ones are everywhere. Easy to find $1 denomination in most HL areas or near them, variants of traditional 3 reel one line slots like Double Diamond, Triple Double Dollars, Triple Red Hot 7s etc.
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    Those are all pretty straightforward coin churners.

    Some others that can be good but are more volatile so they don't always work for coin churning but have been good for it in the past for me are:

    Pink Diamond Free Games. Preferable is the 25 line version, which at $1 denomination is $25 a spin, or less on a multidenomination machine. Less preferable is the 10 line version where you bet every 2 lines so at $5 denomination like CP LV has its $25 a spin. At $25 I won't put in more than $300 but within that you can get a lot of TC at $5 and often win $500 or more and take it and run, or just walk away even when you get bored. More common than HL versions are multi-denomination versions on the regular slot floor.
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    Traditional 3 or 4 reel 1 line slots, $5 denomination, 1-3 credit where playing max credits only matters in making the top payout a higher multiple of your bet than on lower levels. I prefer the ones that give a lot of little payouts - like Triple Diamond where if you get one symbol on the line you win.

    I hope all of this helps. I can't find the slot finder for Rincon on Caesars to look at what they have to tell you specifics of what to check out or avoid there, but if you can find a link to it that works I can go through their list and give you more specific examples of things I would check out if I were there.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    Thanks for the info Dankyone. I thought I had read that there was more variance in the multi-line games? And that if you could find a single line, good pay table at $5 that was a better way to go?
    Five play $1 VP is much lower variance than $5 single play.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Dankyone View Post
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    Thanks for the info Dankyone. I thought I had read that there was more variance in the multi-line games? And that if you could find a single line, good pay table at $5 that was a better way to go?
    Five play $1 VP is much lower variance than $5 single play.
    Ok, I'm not arguing but not understanding either. In general I have read several sources that say variance is higher with a greater number of hands when looking at the same game. Here is one of the sources: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/appendix/3/

    So are you saying that because you are playing $1 on 5 lines versus $5 on one line that decreases the overall loss from variance when playing $25 total coin in in each case? Would you be willing to walk through that calculation using the variance info in the link I supplied above (this is where my math skills get a bit touch and go)?

    Interesting stuff, thanks.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by pkspins View Post
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    This is interesting pkspins and I have considered some slot play to supplement doing it through VP.

    My mom is a Seven Stars slot player and she actually does pretty well. She was telling me about some machines that do basically what you are saying here (TC builder with minimum input and less loss). She even made the exact same comment you did- "just play until you're bored and then move on"! She also mentioned the 9 line older games.

    If you know the names of the specific machines you are talking about above that would be great!
    I hope all of this helps. I can't find the slot finder for Rincon on Caesars to look at what they have to tell you specifics of what to check out or avoid there, but if you can find a link to it that works I can go through their list and give you more specific examples of things I would check out if I were there.
    WOW!!! Thank you SO much pkspins! It is amazing how similar your thinking is to my mom's - she got her info the hard way - through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears on the casino floor. This kind of info gives me some confidence to try it out and see what happens!

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    Originally Posted by pkspins View Post
    Originally Posted by Slyfox56 View Post
    This is interesting pkspins and I have considered some slot play to supplement doing it through VP.

    My mom is a Seven Stars slot player and she actually does pretty well. She was telling me about some machines that do basically what you are saying here (TC builder with minimum input and less loss). She even made the exact same comment you did- "just play until you're bored and then move on"! She also mentioned the 9 line older games.

    If you know the names of the specific machines you are talking about above that would be great!
    I hope all of this helps. I can't find the slot finder for Rincon on Caesars to look at what they have to tell you specifics of what to check out or avoid there, but if you can find a link to it that works I can go through their list and give you more specific examples of things I would check out if I were there.
    WOW!!! Thank you SO much pkspins! It is amazing how similar your thinking is to my mom's - she got her info the hard way - through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears on the casino floor. This kind of info gives me some confidence to try it out and see what happens!
    I'm glad and again sorry my pictures are so outlandishly huge.
    Your mom is a better resource because she knows your casino. The ones I shared are ones that have worked for me at most places. But you get to know the machines and what's good for this at one casino can be useless at another. At some places I play the QH 2 credits and the $1 9 line reels just eat your money. I just watch what I put in and don't get too far in the hole on any one machine and it kind of works out overall to about break even or better. My pictures are mostlyl from instances where it ended up better, or way better, but those weren't typical days.

  20. #20
    I'm confused here.

    Why would slots ever be a better choice than 99%-type VP to earn tier credits?

    Slots have a very bad return.. something like 90-92%. I can't see where playing slots for tier credits would ever be a good idea, aside from a jackpot situation which temporarily makes the machine +EV or close to it.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

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