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Thread: casino cheating

  1. #181
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    The card tag assignment says or indicates we want a deck rich in 9,10,A but also poor in 5 and 6. We don't care about the 2 or the 8. The minimum bet requirement are the exact same figures from the exact same formula. The only thing that has changed is the tags assigned. NOW, I can adjust to the dealer tendencies or change of dealers on the fly with the best application possible.

    Now that I've totally lost you Bob. Any questions?
    Great stuff Moses, thanks for posting this.

  2. #182
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    You call it trolling. I call it "challenging" what Blackhole does.
    Calling someone a fraud and a liar is not challenging someone. It's an ad hominem attack. He is relentless at it. He doesn't do anything else. He adds nothing of value to the forum.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  3. #183
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    You call it trolling. I call it "challenging" what Blackhole does.
    Calling someone a fraud and a liar is not challenging someone. It's an ad hominem attack. He is relentless at it. He doesn't do anything else. He adds nothing of value to the forum.
    He did challenge kewlj to put up some proof. Sure, Blackhole's first post in this thread was loaded with insults, but there were some points that needed a response.

    Mickeycrimm you do a good job of hurling foul mouthed insults yourself.

    I suggest that on the future Blackhole sticks to facts and points and omits all insults and them he won't be trolling, right?

    Mickeycrimm can you eliminate your insults too?

    Can kewlj not call me a shyster?

    Can MaxPen leave my family out of his comments about me?
    It's all about quitting when ahead.

  4. #184
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    You call it trolling. I call it "challenging" what Blackhole does.
    Calling someone a fraud and a liar is not challenging someone. It's an ad hominem attack. He is relentless at it. He doesn't do anything else. He adds nothing of value to the forum.
    He did challenge kewlj to put up some proof. Sure, Blackhole's first post in this thread was loaded with insults, but there were some points that needed a response.

    Mickeycrimm you do a good job of hurling foul mouthed insults yourself.

    I suggest that on the future Blackhole sticks to facts and points and omits all insults and them he won't be trolling, right?

    Mickeycrimm can you eliminate your insults too?

    Can kewlj not call me a shyster?

    Can MaxPen leave my family out of his comments about me?
    I only attack those that attack me first. Blackhole attacked me in his very first post on this forum and it's a continuing theme with him. I'm like Trump. I'm a counter puncher. I've never attacked anyone unprovoked. But if one can't take it they shouldn't dish it out. To steal a line from a Clint Eastwood movie "I don't believe in an eye for an eye, I believe in a head for an eye." If they put it on me I'll put it back on them twice as hard.

    Other than that I'm an easy going guy. Have a nice day, Alan.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  5. #185
    PS: I see the squabbles going on. But since those particular members have never fired me up I leave them alone. I'm not out to make enemies when I don't have to.

    Yes, Alan, I'm sure you find some of my language deplorable. I can cuss with the best of them. You should see me on the highway. I'm calling all the traffic around me bitches and MF'ers. Get the hell out of my way! LOL! But just for you I'll try to knock it off.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  6. #186
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    PS: I see the squabbles going on. But since those particular members have never fired me up I leave them alone. I'm not out to make enemies when I don't have to.
    Nice quote Mick. Words to live by. Everyone should have this on a plaque in their office.

    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I only attack those that attack me first. But if one can't take it they shouldn't dish it out. To steal a line from a Clint Eastwood movie "I don't believe in an eye for an eye, I believe in a head for an eye." If they put it on me I'll put it back on them twice as hard..
    Survival in the jungle. My favorite Clint Eastwood line is "dyin ain't much of a livin."

  7. #187
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Great stuff Moses, thanks for posting this.
    You're welcome. My pleasure.

  8. #188
    If casinos run a forum, I could understand it if they do not allow discussions about casino cheating. Otherwise, on a Black Jack general discussion forum, a person or a group of members should be able to discuss all topics including cheating by casinos.

    It seems that some people want to participate in every thread. If someone does not believe there is cheating by casinos, they should just move on.

    I don't get it as to why such discussions should be moved to a vodoo section. Is there any definitive evidence that casinos cannot cheat?

    Zee writes:

    Sorry to bring a post from BJTF. But it's a worthwhile point. Play to win or don't play at all. Even if casinos cheat, whether it's deception or reality, you still have these two choices. For instance, the call in the Saints game. Perhaps an honest mistake by the official. Point is, the Saints put themselves in this vulnerable position in the first place.
    I'm not saying whether it right or wrong. What I am saying is your game plan should include the human error factor which may or may not appear as cheating. If your at the top of your game? If won't matter.

    What if? Casinos did have a hand in BJTF. It would certainly speak to Norm's sensitivity, odd behavior, and playing of favorites. No?

  9. #189
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Sorry to bring a post from BJTF. But it's a worthwhile point. Play to win or don't play at all. Even if casinos cheat, whether it's deception or reality, you still have these two choices. For instance, the call in the Saints game. Perhaps an honest mistake by the official. Point is, the Saints put themselves in this vulnerable position in the first place.
    I'm not saying whether it right or wrong. What I am saying is your game plan should include the human error factor which may or may not appear as cheating. If your at the top of your game? If won't matter.

    What if? Casinos did have a hand in BJTF. It would certainly speak to Norm's sensitivity, odd behavior, and playing of favorites. No?
    Ok, I don't want to encourage you to continue to post these discussions with yourself (same as you do at ZZ), that only like 2 other members here even know what and who you are talking about. But jeez, I just can't...NOT comment. <- how's that for a double negative?

    First Norm. As RS_ recently posted, probably only you, RS_ and I have dealt with Norm. Outside of that, there are probably just a few that know of him from his stunt and odd behavior at WoV. The fact is Norm is egotistical. He is a control freak. He needs to be in charge and bully people. He needs to make the decisions....who can post, what they can post about, what he will delete. Those of us that dealt with Norm before BJTF all knew this. When Norm promised not to behave in this manner when he started BJTF, most of us were dupped. The smart ones stayed away and didn't give Norm that second chance.

    I'll tell you a little story that few people know. Early on because of some of the concerns about this exact situation, Norm empowered a second "moderator". Richard Munchkin. A fairer level-headed guy, the kind of guy that never gets involved in all the BS, you won't find. Perfect choice for a moderator. Munchkin lasted a very short time, A couple months maybe. And then just quietly left. Left moderating. Left posting at BJTF. Munchkin isn't the type to make a big deal of things and he didn't. But it really speaks volumes.

    The casinos don't have a hand in BJTF. IT's just Norm. Norm's little kingdom. Every decision is about Norm and what is best for him in regards to site traffic and selling more QFIT products. That is why he not only allowed but protected a complete nut job, who happens to be the leading poster, despite that Norm, a math guy knows everything this fraud said, goes and went against the mathematics of the game. It was good for Norm. Good for site traffic. Good for attracting newer players and selling more products.



    Now casino cheating just happens to be another topic that all it is going to do for Norm is maybe discourage a few members from pursuing blackjack play and that includes purchasing Norm's products, so let's sweep it under the rug and declare that Casinos are on the complete up and up. That is what is best for Norm and QFIT products. So he squashes any talk of it

    Now don't get me wrong, I don't think there is widespread casino cheating throughout the industry. I am not one of these guys that screams "cheating" every time I experience some sort of downturn and I have endured many, some lasting months. Of the few incidents of cheating that I personally have encountered, 99% I would characterize at the dealer level, rather than casino involvement. Some lone rouge type dealer dealing seconds, because he took a dislike to certain player(s). That type thing.

    The exception was the ASM discussion, which I believe does involve casino employee and actually the manufacturer, although they have covered their ass from any kind of liability. This too is not widespread. But it had the potential (still does) to become a bigger problem and that is why I initiated that discussion. Better to be informed and at least know what you are looking at than to be the blind victim.

    This idea that casinos don't and won't cheat because they don't need to cheat (already have an advantage) and he risk involved flies in the face of human nature....human greed. Enough is never enough....that is human greed. Talk to Monet.

    Now again, I don't advocate that there is widespread cheating at the casino level, but in this era, where many of the safe guards that were put in place to guarantee the integrity of the games have eroded or just been done away with in the name of saving a few seconds (dollars), a player just can't be too informed. Unfortunately that doesn't mesh with Norm Wattenberger's agenda of forum traffic and selling products, so he dis-allows that particular line of discussion just as he promised not to.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 01-31-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  10. #190
    Excellent post KJ. I may stop playing blackjack for awhile and focus all my energy on Norm Whatthefucker and his little kingdom of pricks. I'm within my rights to copy, paste, and comment. I checked it out months ago. I will try and send you the info regarding copyrights and free speech if you're interested. Seriously, if I weren't within my rights, he'd have came after me long before now. No?
    Last edited by Moses; 01-31-2019 at 08:14 PM.

  11. #191
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Ok, I don't want to encourage you to continue to post these discussions with yourself (same as you do at ZZ), that only like 2 other members here even know what and who you are talking about. But jeez, I just can't...NOT comment. <- how's that for a double negative?
    This is why I started a thread. It is not my intention to shove BJTF BS down people throats. But the idea derived or is a spin off of what you were doing. I just took it to another level.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    First Norm. As RS_ recently posted, probably only you, RS_ and I have dealt with Norm. Outside of that, there are probably just a few that know of him from his stunt and odd behavior at WoV. The fact is Norm is egotistical. He is a control freak. He needs to be in charge and bully people. He needs to make the decisions....who can post, what they can post about, what he will delete. Those of us that dealt with Norm before BJTF all knew this. When Norm promised not to behave in this manner when he started BJTF, most of us were dupped. The smart ones stayed away and didn't give Norm that second chance.
    Spot on analogy. But Norm is not going to bully me. When you stand up to one, like I did with him and have done in a casino many times, it's easy to see what they are made of...and it isn't much.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I'll tell you a little story that few people know. Early on because of some of the concerns about this exact situation, Norm empowered a second "moderator". Richard Munchkin. A fairer level-headed guy, the kind of guy that never gets involved in all the BS, you won't find. Perfect choice for a moderator. Munchkin lasted a very short time, A couple months maybe. And then just quietly left. Left moderating. Left posting at BJTF. Munchkin isn't the type to make a big deal of things and he didn't. But it really speaks volumes.
    Excellent story and insight.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Good for attracting newer players and selling more products.
    Quite a few issues with the SIM products.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now don't get me wrong, I don't think there is widespread casino cheating throughout the industry. I am not one of these guys that screams "cheating" every time I experience some sort of downturn and I have endured many, some lasting months. Of the few incidents of cheating that I personally have encountered, 99% I would characterize at the dealer level, rather than casino involvement. Some lone rouge type dealer dealing seconds, because he took a dislike to certain player(s). That type thing..
    Yep. I've seen it and could take you directly to it. But it's not a big deal. I just skip it and move on. The one thing I can't overcome is 50% pen and preferential shuffling. That's a real pisser.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The exception was the ASM discussion, which I believe does involve casino employee and actually the manufacturer, although they have covered their ass from any kind of liability. This too is not widespread. But it had the potential (still does) to become a bigger problem and that is why I initiated that discussion. Better to be informed and at least know what you are looking at than to be the blind victim.
    There are only to two machine shufflers that I play. Sometimes it does make me say Hmmm. But my column count works both ways. Many times I walk away from these machines with session wins and never push a bet.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Unfortunately that doesn't mesh with Norm Wattenberger's agenda of forum traffic and selling products, so he dis-allows that particular line of discussion just as he promised not to.
    Okay, considering Norm's personality and narcissistic nature, that makes perfect sense. But why does he let T3 roam free with his bogus claims and support by Gronbog sims? Is that sort of like cover?


    I can run sims on CV Data for single and double deck. You'd played both Vegas and the East Coast shoes extensively. I'd like your input on the most common rules to enter for shoes. I want to compare Wong Halves to Hi Opt II. No, I will never play shoes or these counts. But it's clear BJTF's intension is to create confusion to confound their understanding. I want to post some crystal clear results and let them chew on that for awhile.

  12. #192
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Excellent post KJ. I may stop playing blackjack for awhile and focus all my energy on Norm Whatthefucker and his little kingdom of pricks. I'm within my rights to copy, paste, and comment. I checked it out months ago. I will try and send you the info regarding copyrights and free speech if you're interested. Seriously, if I weren't within my rights, he'd have came after me long before now. No?
    Yeah, I have seen Norman scream copyright and threaten legal action like a zillion times. It is one of his 'go to' moves.

    No need to send me anything. I just don't see any value in fighting that fight. I am trying to keep more focused on my objectives and they don't include Norman Wattenberger. But if it is important to you, have fun.

  13. #193
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    RS_ recently posted, probably only you, RS_ and I have dealt with Norm. Outside of that, there are probably just a few that know of him from his stunt and odd behavior at WoV.
    I forgot about my friend Midwest Player. MWP certainly knows Norm and Norm's behavior pretty well....too well, right MWP. Mickeycrimm also knows a little about Norm having been banned by him. I don't think mickey lost any sleep over that one though. It was more like a 'goal achieved' situation.

    Probably 1 or 2 others, maybe even some lurkers have dealt with Ab-Norm Wattenberger as well. So maybe more than I thought.

  14. #194
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Yeah, I have seen Norman scream copyright and threaten legal action like a zillion times. It is one of his 'go to' moves.
    I don't remember my exact words. But it was something along the lines of "Go Fuck yourself."

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    No need to send me anything. I just don't see any value in fighting that fight. I am trying to keep more focused on my objectives and they don't include Norman Wattenberger. But if it is important to you, have fun.
    The difference between Norm and any other forum is he represents his products that are suppose to improve ones game. How can one trust a product, if the one who sells it, word can't be trusted? It's some kind of sick thing going on where they confuse and humiliate those with a legit question who bought the product. It's like they constantly kick the can and finding resolution is never the goal. But in some weird way one thinks it will happen. Like watching a bad movie with no ending. The Worms.

    So do you think you could tell me the most common rules for 6 deck shoes?

  15. #195
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Mickeycrimm also knows a little about Norm having been banned by him. I don't think mickey lost any sleep over that one though. It was more like a 'goal achieved' situation. .
    Hey Mick. What was your handle at BJTF? I understand if you'd rather not say. Just curious. Could use a good chuckle.

  16. #196
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The casinos don't have a hand in BJTF. IT's just Norm. Norm's little kingdom. Every decision is about Norm and what is best for him in regards to site traffic and selling more QFIT products. That is why he not only allowed but protected a complete nut job, who happens to be the leading poster, despite that Norm, a math guy knows everything this fraud said, goes and went against the mathematics of the game. It was good for Norm. Good for site traffic. Good for attracting newer players and selling more products.

    KJ, I've observed that you describe Norman Wattenberger as a math genius on other message boards over the years. Norm lacks the understanding of blackjack mathematics. No way the casinos would want to be involved in covert intelligence with his "Blackjack the Forum" message board users. I've never used his Casino Verite software products, but used a calculator to figure out the edge at blackjack. He is not a "math guy"! He's just a guy who plays with his mouse 24/7 to sell a product. I'd love to debate Norm (QFIT) on a "Gambling with an Edge" or "Poker Fraud Alert" podcast where we can have a reasonable discussion on blackjack card counting.
    Casino reporter, enjoys blackjack/baccarat card counting to win. Moviemakerjjcasino on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/user/Moviemakerjjcasino/videos and Twitter https://twitter.com/Casino_Examiner

  17. #197
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Mickeycrimm also knows a little about Norm having been banned by him. I don't think mickey lost any sleep over that one though. It was more like a 'goal achieved' situation. .
    Hey Mick. What was your handle at BJTF? I understand if you'd rather not say. Just curious. Could use a good chuckle.
    I used mickeycrimm on BJTF. I made only a couple posts before getting the ax. My sole intention was to cuss Qfuck out for the bullshit he pulled on KJ at WoV and that's what I did. I was drunk at the time so don't remember exactly what I said but I cussed him out pretty good.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  18. #198
    Originally Posted by JSTAT View Post


    KJ, I've observed that you describe Norman Wattenberger as a math genius on other message boards over the years. Norm lacks the understanding of blackjack mathematics. He is not a "math guy"! He's just a guy who plays with his mouwe 24/7.
    JSTAT, Norm's math abilities is not the issue here. He is enough of a math guy that he knew from day 1, that the claims made were impossible and yet he did nothing. He allowed those claims and protected the individual making them from legitimate challenges by legitimate players.

  19. #199
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    He is enough of a math guy that he knew from day 1, that the claims made were impossible and yet he did nothing. He allowed those claims and protected the individual making them from legitimate challenges by legitimate players.
    Whoa! A post made of Gold. We really need an applause thingy here. Standing O for KJ.

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