casino cheating

[coach belly]

As he deals the cards he is looking up at a screen that tells him what the cards are.

And how would that work in a brick-and-mortar casino?

You already know the answer.

My answer is that it would not work in a live casino, do you agree?

[Moses]

Hi-lo can absolutely beat a pitch game. Is it the best option for them? No. But to say it won't beat them is absurd.

You will need 3 things. 1.) Deep pen 2.) A generous spread allowance 3.) A pit/EITS that doesn't give a fuck and won't preferential shuffle.

Can you beat them once? Yes. Twice? Maybe Everyday? Nope.

Give me a large enough spread allowance and I could probably beat them with an Ace/Five count. I may have to play everyday and live to be 300 according to sims. The factor not considered is the most important. Time. What is your time worth?

I like my odds as the house with shallow pen, limited spread, and preferential shuffle and/or a pit that says No MAS and spreads the word.

[Moses]

Let's suppose you are right. That the casinos are cheating and your shield of armor is HiLo. What do you or any player stand to gain? Our opponent wins by forfeiting. Scaring the fuck out them or intimidation won't work. Consider how many are already shutting down blackjack tables and replacing them with the game where the big boobed dealer on video says "hey big boy, wanna try me"? Deep pen in pitch games are death traps. So they ban me, stop offering the game, and yet me name is still considered that of a dangerous player in a mid-pen game.

[jbjb]

Hi-lo can absolutely beat a pitch game. Is it the best option for them? No. But to say it won't beat them is absurd.

You will need 3 things. 1.) Deep pen 2.) A generous spread allowance 3.) A pit/EITS that doesn't give a fuck and won't preferential shuffle.

Can you beat them once? Yes. Twice? Maybe Everyday? Nope.

Give me a large enough spread allowance and I could probably beat them with an Ace/Five count. I may have to play everyday and live to be 300 according to sims. The factor not considered is the most important. Time. What is your time worth?

I like my odds as the house with shallow pen, limited spread, and preferential shuffle and/or a pit that says No MAS and spreads the word.

Sure you have to have the right condition. You do for any type of game. But to say it doesn't work at all is fallacious.

As for "what is your time worth." Mine is nothing with counting and spreading at all. We'll walk out of a casino if card counting, on any type of blackjack game, is the last resort.

[Moses]

Sure you have to have the right condition. .

Exactly my point. Once you find the right condition you probably also found a trap that was set.

As for "what is your time worth." Mine is nothing with counting and spreading at all. We'll walk out of a casino if card counting, on any type of blackjack game, is the last resort.

You lost me. My time is worth a lot. Get in, get paid, get out. Do it again tomorrow. Some may or may not run of out of money. Some may make more than they will ever spend. But one thing is for sure. We all run out of time. It's a proven fact.

But to say it doesn't work at all is fallacious..

Simply put, I like their side as opposed to our side of the table in the HiLO scenario. These guys are not idiots. You've got to try something they've never seen before or cannot recognize. So I don't want to invest money and time for such a poultry, if any, return. The profit may not come in your first million hands. Who has time to play 10 million hands?

[monet]

Alan brought up Roulette but dropped the topic.
I still enjoy discussions about Roulette.
I am sure that not many here are interested in this movie but it has some good Roulette Scenes.
One of the actors who play Maverick on Maverick.

Support Your Local Gunfighter...


They ought to take all the Roulette Dealers out and string em up.
Even if the wheel is straight and it aint!
The house has 8% of the best of it.
Eight Percent!
Anybody plays Roulette ought to have their head examined.
Just take them and lock em up.
They ought to BURN all dem roulette wheels.


4600 Dollars on 23!
Spin It...
22 The Player Loses.

Not a great upload of the movie but it is free:

[jbjb]

So I don't want to invest money and time for such a poultry, if any, return.

If your counting cards on a blackjack game, you are earning a "poultry" return, i.e. "chicken scratch." I equate counting to working as a cashier at McDonald's and what we do to being the CFO of McDonald's. I won't use the "salamander" terminology as even I think that's a bit degrading.

[kewlJ]

So Nightshifter's statement was more along the lines of what coachbelly thought he meant, not how I interpreted it. Nightshifter thinks that an experienced dealer can shuffle single/double deck as fast or faster than putting the cards in one chamber and taking out the second set of cards from the other.

I will say that based on my experience, that seems incorrect. Not by a lot mind you. Depending on the procedures of different casinos sometimes they don't place the cards directly into the ASM chamber, but do one of those "stripping actions, which basically reverses the order of cards. Sometimes they also take the remaining cards that were not played, maybe 30-40 cards on a double deck, depending on penetration and break up that unplayed slug placing part in different sections of the played cards in the discard rack before placing the decks in the ASM.

Either of these procedures which some places do and others don't only takes 10 seconds. Add 5 seconds for placing the cards in the chamber and retracting the second set and you are talking 15 seconds for ASM vs at least 30 seconds for a fast hand shuffle.

Bottom line, I think his statement in incorrect, but not by much. Anyone disqualifying everything he says because of that is looking for a reason to disqualify what he says. I personally have a couple questions about other things he said, where I say to myself, "hum that doesn't sound right", but I also see some places, and terminology used where I say, this guy is very credible, especially since I have a very good friend that works in the pit that has mirrored some of Nightshifters terminology right down to the term.

But whether or not one finds him credible is everyone's decision to make for themselves. And is the case with everything on this site, I am sure it will go right down AP / anti-AP "party" lines.

[Moses]

So I don't want to invest money and time for such a poultry, if any, return.

If your counting cards on a blackjack game, you are earning a "poultry" return, i.e. "chicken scratch." I equate counting to working as a cashier at McDonald's and what we do to being the CFO of McDonald's. I won't use the "salamander" terminology as even I think that's a bit degrading.

I'm not familiar with the salamander terminology. Nothing wrong with being a cashier at McDonalds - guaranteed money. The difference here is our opponent wins by forfeit.

For instance, suppose you invest 30 hours in a week and lose $30K. This is no guarantee you will get in all back the next week. Even if you did, you still invested 60 hours of time over the course of two weeks for zero money. I can make a shitload of money in 60 hours guaranteed or not. Exchanging dollars at a blackjack table is not the answer. Beating them with your mind at their own game is the only answer because you can't win if you're not allowed to play.

[monet]

@Moses

I just found out about this site called Zen Zone Forum.
According to WoV the site is Anti-Semite or Anti-whatever.
Hate Site according to them.

I noticed you are a member Moses?

I found the site difficult to navigate or I wasn't interested.
I wanted to see some of the posts about this alleged racism, anti whatever.

I did see a thread over there by you that I think you have over here.
Anyways... just curious if that site is as racist as WoV claims?
Figured I would ask you.

[Dan Druff]

blackhole has been kicked from this thread for trolling.

[tableplay]

I wrote that there is proof that BJ dealers (and thus casinos) cheat as shown in the YouTube video of live play at an online casino.

We should acknowledge that the clip posted earlier was created by Mike Morgenstern, so its authenticity could be considered dubious.

But let's assume it's authentic...in the Morgenstern clip it sure looks like the dealer deals a second.

Morgenstern is dealt the second...a 6...then the dealer deals himself an 8.

If he had dealt the cards in proper order, Morgenstern would have received the 8, and the dealer the 6...that's what the clip appears to show.

If the dealer receives a 6, then he must take another card. So we don't know the outcome if the cards would have been dealt properly, since the clip doesn't continue to show the next card dealt from the shoe.

Besides...how does the dealer know the value of the cards he is about to deal if they are face down in a shoe, such that dealing a second is to his advantage?

This was a clip from online play, so we don't really know what else is going on other than what we can see.

Maybe the dealer is somehow being shown the value of the cards in the shoe before they are dealt, or maybe the cards are marked...like with braille or something...so that the dealer can tell by touching them.

But Nightshifter was writing about live casinos...not online casinos.

Does the Morgenstern clip really prove that brick-and-mortar casinos cheat?

Yes I wrote that casinos cheat. Is an online casino a casino ? Did the dealer deal a 2nd ? Did the dealer beat the player ? I think the answer to all these questions is yes, and that is all I wrote in my posts.

[Alan Mendelson]

blackhole has been kicked from this thread for trolling.

And he's the only one who trolled?

[mickeycrimm]

And how would that work in a brick-and-mortar casino?

You already know the answer.

My answer is that it would not work in a live casino, do you agree?

Not with the cards being shown on a big screen. But I think it could work with something like google eyeglasses.

[mickeycrimm]

So I don't want to invest money and time for such a poultry, if any, return.

If your counting cards on a blackjack game, you are earning a "poultry" return, i.e. "chicken scratch." I equate counting to working as a cashier at McDonald's and what we do to being the CFO of McDonald's. I won't use the "salamander" terminology as even I think that's a bit degrading.

I'm not familiar with the salamander terminology. Nothing wrong with being a cashier at McDonalds - guaranteed money. The difference here is our opponent wins by forfeit.

For instance, suppose you invest 30 hours in a week and lose $30K. This is no guarantee you will get in all back the next week. Even if you did, you still invested 60 hours of time over the course of two weeks for zero money. I can make a shitload of money in 60 hours guaranteed or not. Exchanging dollars at a blackjack table is not the answer. Beating them with your mind at their own game is the only answer because you can't win if you're not allowed to play.

I think jbjb's comment on salamanders refers to James Grosjean's assessment that on the evolutionary scale of blackjack the card counters are the "primordial ooze" and "salamanders." In other words, he's saying there are far superior methods to beating blackjack.

[monet]

And he's the only one who trolled?

I haven't read every post of his but usually he is nothing but Troll.
Not that I believe anything is wrong with that.
I troll plenty myself.
However, can he post up some information that is useful from time to time?
It is obvious that he doesn't want to give away anything gambling related but is their anything he is willing to give away in a respectful manner?
Tough to be Trolling all the time but we have a few members that seem capable.

[Alan Mendelson]

It seems to me he's being singled out and punished for challenging what he considers to be false claims. Mickeycrimm, Moses, you Monet and everyone else on this forum who has challenged my report that I saw a random shooter roll 18 yos in a row has done the same thing. Kewlj and many others have challenged Rob Singer's claims, as I have at certain times.

Everyone on this forum has challenged someone else, with the exception of a few members who only come here rarely to ask a question.

If Dan is going to single anyone out why doesn't he single out those who use foul language, and those who make racist comments? Yes, this includes Rob Singer but there are others as well. Even I used foul language in the past.

Dan claims to be a free speech advocate except free speech doesn't apply to blackhole.

[monet]

It seems to me he's being singled out and punished for challenging what he considers to be false claims. Mickeycrimm, Moses, you Monet and everyone else on this forum who has challenged my report that I saw a random shooter roll 18 yos in a row has done the same thing.

If Dan is going to single anyone out why doesn't he single put those who use foul language, and those who make racist comments? Yes, this includes Rob Singer but there are others as well. Even I used foul language in the past.

Dan claims to be a free speech advocate except free speech doesn't apply to blackhole.

I think someone has to complain about the trolling in a PM to Dan Druff.
If nobody is running to the Owner and complaining nothing will happen.
It is true that I have trolled you and continue to troll you.
I think the difference is that members like blackhole never give up on it.
They troll every thread and every post.
Even though I have trolled and used abusive language I don't think I constantly do it without actually making contributions to the forum.
I will make an effort to troll you less.
Shalom! (שלום)

[Alan Mendelson]

You call it trolling. I call it "challenging" what Blackhole does.

[monet]

You call it trolling. I call it "challenging" what Blackhole does.

Actually I never complained about it one time.
I never complained about blackhole no matter what he said about me or anyone else.
I don't actually call it trolling.
I don't even like that word.
However words that I don't like such as AP, Trolling or Multi-Carding seem to be commonplace online.
Gotta roll with the tide so to speak.
One word I hardly ever use is Luck... I hate that four letter word!
Dan Druff called it trolling and kicked him from the thread for Trolling.

blackhole has been kicked from this thread for trolling.

Edit: I am not sure anyone has actually believed or stated that they believe your 18 Yos In a Row claim.
I know for a fact Dan Druff broke down the math on it and said it did not happen.
When I seen the math that he proved on it I have to admit he made a very strong case that it was impossible without some sort of cheating.
My beef with the story is how everyone was just watching Yo after Yo in a Row and it was like nothing amazing was happening.
No Big Deal.
Nobody starting to get emotional about it.
That is very tough to swallow let alone the mathematical side of it.
Even with Mission146 playing devils advocate with the scenario of all numbers being able to go 18 in a row...
He explained that he did not believe the tale.
The other day I asked if you believed in Jehovah and if you ever saw him.
No answer which is fine but in my mind Jehovah is more mathematically possible compared to your story of the 18 yos.