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Thread: Questions/thoughts - Moses & Bob21

  1. #1
    I have some questions and thoughts concerning and for both Moses and Bob21 that I am going to discuss here. But anyone is welcome and encouraged to join the discussion. The more the merrier.

  2. #2
    Fire away KJ.

  3. #3
    First up Moses. I was going to pursue these questions and thoughts earlier in the week, but decided to back off that, because I thought it would be perceived by moses and others as me trying to discredit him. That is not my intention and I do believe we need some clarity to moses's situation.


    So a couple questions, I hope you will consider answering, although it is your right not to.
    One. your age? You don't have to give a numerical number. Perhaps mid 60's, something like that.
    Two, your status right now as far as gambling/income. Do you support yourself from your blackjack, sports wagering and whatever else you may do? Or are you retired or something and these activities while maybe +EV, and maybe you make money are more of a supplemental thing?

    The reason I ask, is that I have a vision, based on things that you have said on numerous forums, of you being basically retired, from whatever you did to earn a living. And you now fill your days at the casinos in N Nevada, hanging out with your "friends" and sometimes adversaries in the sportsbooks, wagering some sports and playing some blackjack at times. Nothing wrong with this scenario. This would be a pretty enjoyable retirement.

    Now, before you get all "huffy" and start attacking me, let me say, I have no knowledge of what it takes or how to go about being betting sports professionally or even successfully long-term. My track record on sportsbetting is proof of that. Betting sports on a few of the teams that I root for and some televised games just to have a rooting interest is a recreational thing for me, completely -EV and my results match that expectation. It is my fun. $100 wagers have a real cost of a dollar or two each. And using my players card might just buy me a tiny bit of cover, as my account shows some -EV play. Probably doesn't but who knows.

    Now blackjack and playing for a living or substantial supplemental income, I do know about. And I have one issue with your claim here. I have been to and played Reno, and a card counter just can't play at substantial stakes to make it worthwhile in my opinion. I wish you could because Reno is one hour and a $27 flight for me. If there was reasonable opportunity at reasonable stakes that was tolerated, Reno would be in my rotation. At least one trip each month.

    I would classify Reno as a low limit haven, which again fits in with someone retired, with retirement income, just supplementing at low level stakes, which Reno is known for.

    I am really not trying to attack or discredit you, so I hope you aren't going to flyoff the handle. Just trying to clarify some things and give you an opportunity to clarify some things.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 01-27-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Next Bob21, and my line is less questioning, but more opinion and advice here.

    I am curious at to why you are pursuing Moses's methods, namely the column count rather than something simpler like Hi-lo which you claim to currently play?


    Moses said something really profound to you earlier this week. Not going to find the quote, but it was something like he is 1 of 8 people left that has access to and plays single deck blackjack. This is something I have said numerous times. Sometimes I say it differently like 99.9 % of players, myself and apparently you, don't live in or near Reno and have access to decent single deck play (real single deck blackjack, not 6:5).

    A more complicated count, like moses's column count, could actually be beneficial if you have access to and regularly play such games. That would be assuming a higher error rate doesn't eat up all that advantage. But I don't want to get into all that. It is a question of availability and for most of us, the discussion and consideration of such a "column" count should end there.

    Since it appears you do not have that kind of availability, I think your pursuit of this methodology is misplaced. You have right to do whatever you like, of course, but such a complex count is just not how you beat 6 and 8 deck games through traditional card counting. And that is all I am going to say.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    So a couple questions, I hope you will consider answering, although it is your right not to.
    One. your age? .
    I just turned 60. But I was in sports most of my life and I don't mean sitting in the stands. So I'm in good shape. Just not game shape.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Two, your status right now as far as gambling/income. Do you support yourself from your blackjack, sports wagering and whatever else you may do? Or are you retired or something and these activities while maybe +EV, and maybe you make money are more of a supplemental thing?.
    I'm still too young for SSI benefits. I moved here in 2011 after a divorce from a mistake I endured for 25 years. I made a comeback in officiating because games fees jump from about $300 in the early 90s to $1500 today. But the offseason regiment was hard on the body and I no longer enjoyed the pressures of travel. I only have the living expenses of a home owner who has paid off his house. Taxes, Insurance, heat, water, trash, and those damn pesky little bills from the City. Milk sometimes when my lady requests. Blackjack more than pays all those bills, plus it is a vacation fund. Except I like here so much, I don't want to go anywhere else. Sports bet winnings go back into the house. Remodeled kitchen and bath. Put in hardwood floors. I do all my own work or have my ladies son do it to pay me back for loans. Which in turns works out to me doing my own work. lol
    Stock market portfolio is untouched. Sometimes I add to it. House has more than doubled in value 8 years. So about 1/2 of what was lost in 2011 has been recovered.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The reason I ask, is that I have a vision, based on things that you have said on numerous forums, of you being basically retired, from whatever you did to earn a living. And you now fill your days at the casinos in N Nevada, hanging out with your "friends" and sometimes adversaries in the sportsbooks, wagering some sports and playing some blackjack at times. Nothing wrong with this scenario. This would be a pretty enjoyable retirement.
    Yes. I've met some good guys that I will watch a game at the sportsbook with. But about 3 hours a couple times a week is enough. There are also some real turds. Now, when one of those turds picks on one of my friends, then I've gotten sideways with them a time or two. I practice a lot and did a ton of research which is finished. Thank God. I spent hours in park shooting hoops as kid because I wasn't welcome in my own home. So now I employ the same concept with blackjack. I practice while watching a game on TV. It's hard to do either individually without getting bored. But fun to do both at the same time. My brain is like a number machine. But it's mainly because I prefer to think about numbers as opposed to life.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now, before you get all "huffy" and start attacking me, let me say, I have no knowledge of what it takes or how to go about being betting sports professionally or even successfully long-term. My track record on sportsbetting is proof of that. Betting sports on a few of the teams that I root for and some televised games just to have a rooting interest is a recreational thing for me, completely -EV and my results match that expectation. It is my fun. $100 wagers have a real cost of a dollar or two each. And using my players card might just buy me a tiny bit of cover, as my account shows some -EV play. Probably doesn't but who knows. .
    My work in sports bets was all front loaded. In other words, I went back 7 years in pro sports and tracked every single game looking for trends. Much like the research a stock investor might do.

    Then, I've been betting (and updating) NBA, NHL, and MLB since 2011. I had success in the NFL for years. But the game changed, so quality bets are few and far between. Most guys sit down with a daily sheet to see if they can pick some games or parlays. I take a quick glance to see if anything fits my research. Most days I pass. I bet a lot more than $100 a game. So nowadays, about 90% of my work/fun is in blackjack. But about 70% of my profits are from sports bets.

    I took the same concepts of blackjack as I did in sports betting. In essence, it's a game of people played with cards. So I let the game come to me. The only difference is I have to play those $25 min bets hands while waiting. In sports bets, I just wait. The volatility is minimal because my play is conservative and just about the opposite of anyone on BJTF.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now blackjack and playing for a living or substantial supplemental income, I do know about. And I have one issue with your claim here. I have been to and played Reno, and a card counter just can't play at substantial stakes to make it worthwhile in my opinion. I wish you could because Reno is one hour and a $27 flight for me. If there was reasonable opportunity at reasonable stakes that was tolerated, Reno would be in my rotation. At least one trip each month.:.
    You'd have to totally revamp your game. These casinos are so twitchy they'd being hanging from a ceiling fan at the sound of a loud fart. But once you prove you are not a threat, then it's okay.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I would classify Reno as a low limit haven, which again fits in with someone retired, with retirement income, just supplementing at low level stakes, which Reno is known for.
    .:.
    Green chips. No one is going watch my play for the price of red chips. Time is better spent on Verite. I will play black when offered. But I've learned, the hard way, I'm better off not to ask for a table limit increase.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I am really not trying to attack or discredit you, so I hope you aren't going to flyoff the handle. Just trying to clarify some things and give you an opportunity to clarify some things.
    What you see is what you get.
    Last edited by Moses; 01-27-2019 at 01:26 PM.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Moses said something really profound to you earlier this week. Not going to find the quote, but it was something like he is 1 of 8 people left that has access to and plays single deck blackjack. This is something I have said numerous times. Sometimes I say it differently like 99.9 % of players, myself and apparently you, don't live in or near Reno and have access to decent single deck play (real single deck blackjack, not 6:5).:
    That was a joke from the old BJFT days. True be told, the casinos are packed with single deck blackjack players, getting 3.2 on the weekends. If they take away pen and reduce spread allowance, then the only way to win is with your mind and less players. The large bet in a column count wins 61.5% of the hands. But you only get about 4% play.
    The percentage count I described wins about 58% hands but you get about 6% play. This extra 2% equates to higher return for your time invested. However, if you're getting deep pen, the column count is better because your win percentage increases and your time invested decreases. Hence, you are not watching prime bet hands getting shuffled away.

    Double deck is simply two times the work of single deck. But that and shoes are all that is available in Las Vegas from what I've read. Only shoes on East Coast. It makes no sense to fly to Tupelo, MS or Cape Girardeau, Mo. for deeper pen in double deck. If you ran a SIM and reviewed the logs, you'd see the punches you are taking with HiLo and could be ducking with a column and/or a percentage count. IF you get up into that 10% to 15% large bet frequency category which is what it takes for HiLo to be most effective, now you run the risk of getting 86ed with a strong run to the upside.

    Here is what I will absolutely guarantee you from my research. SCORE, developed by Don S is far better than BC and PE. However, IC is worthy of consideration because it's his #1 item on the Ill 18. IF you give the 8 more than 0, it will push SCORE down. IF you give the 2 a higher or equal value to the 7 it will push SCORE to the downside in a pitch game. Many of the items in the ill 18 are not plays in today's pitch game. But 14vs10 index will push SCORE to the upside considerably. The 16vs9 doesn't make much difference because the play is infrequent and standing would only occur on large bets.
    Last edited by Moses; 01-27-2019 at 01:15 PM.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Next Bob21, and my line is less questioning, but more opinion and advice here.

    I am curious at to why you are pursuing Moses's methods, namely the column count rather than something simpler like Hi-lo which you claim to currently play?
    KewlJ, I had to go back to reread my posts to see if I ever said I was going to purse Moses’ column count. I did not. I asked my question to try to better understand it. I’ve seen Moses talk a lot about it and I wanted to better understand where he was coming from. I found his reply very good in explaining what he did, so I thanked Moses for taking the time to do this. Again, this does not mean I’ll be pursuing his count.

    I like Hilo, but I have looked into other counts in the past, including HiOpt II with ace side counts. I’ve tried some more advanced counts but have always returned to Hilo. With this said, I always feel there is room for growth. If I only pick up one or two things from another count, it might help me with Hilo.

    I also like to learn about different counts and why someone does things a certain way as an intellectual exercise. We’re never too old to learn. While I might not agree with 90% of what someone says, I will still listen to them. Who knows, that other 10% might come in handy someday.

    As far as why I joined this site, I really have no other alternative agenda other than to learn. Why are people so skeptical on this site? Can’t someone join and just be a new member by asking an innocent question? I still don’t see how any of my questions would make someone think I was a sock.

    Btw, Bob isn’t my real name but I have known a couple Bobs in the past, kind of like I did stay in a Holliday Inn Express last night expression. I’ve always liked that name since it’s easy to spell and being somewhat dyslexic looks the same even when spelled backwards. The only problem is if you get the o misplaced, but that’s easy to spot.

    Btw, your comment on team play was excellent and helpful. Thank you!

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Btw, Bob isn’t my real name but I have known a couple Bobs in the past, kind of like I did stay in a Holliday Inn Express last night expression. I’ve always liked that name since it’s easy to spell and being somewhat dyslexic looks the same even when spelled backwards. !
    I gave one of my good friends the nickname BOB. It stands for Big Ole Boy. Now, everyone calls him Bob, Bobby, Robert, Roberto, Roberta, Rob, Boberino, Little Bob. Neveda Bob. We refer to them as Bulb. Meaning it clearly hasn't went on.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    KewlJ, I had to go back to reread my posts to see if I ever said I was going to purse Moses’ column count. I did not. I asked my question to try to better understand it.
    Fair enough Bob21.

    While I sort of now have the reputation of being pro-simplicity, or anti-complex on the count debate-discussions of which there are many in our community, I really am not. I can just imagine the eyeroll, from some that have witnessed some of these "discussions".

    The truth is that the first count I learned was Hi-opt 1, from The World's Greatest Blackjack Book. Fans of the movie The Hangover will remember that is the book Alan was reading and carrying around. Anyway Hi-opt 1 is basically hi-lo, without the 2 (low card) vs Ace (high card). As a new player not knowing a thing about card counting and barely anything about blackjack, it took me about a minute to decide there is something wrong with not accounting for the single most important card in the deck, the Ace, in the primary count. That is when I stumbled on to hi-lo.

    But in my first few years of playing, I started reading all the same gobbly-gook that we still read today about all the other counts and how much more powerful they were. That is when I like you, began at least looking at other options. I settled on the Revere Point Count, which rated very strong for the shoe games that I was primarily playing at the time in Atlantic City. In addition, Don Schlesinger and Norm Wattenberger, two players in the community that I had great respect for (one still do ), both played RPC their entire careers. I think (also I may be mistaken about one of them) that they both learned from Revere himself.

    So I relearned a count, while I was actively playing and supporting myself. And I played RPC for 18 months. And at the end of that time, I concluded there was not all that much difference. I didn't see any great increase in my results (winrate), and I had to concentrate just a bit harder. I couldn't walk by a table, get a fraction of a second glance at the cards and pick up the count. It took a full second, maybe 2 seconds. Non-BJ counters will say "what" to this statement, but card counters know what I am talking about. There was a difference. So I went back to hi-lo.

    Now that was my experience. Different players have different experiences and abilities. I am quite sure there are players that can play their more complex count very efficiently.

    But then we get into the difference in performance. Now I have always stated that for someone that plays only or the majority of handheld games, decent Single deck or deeply dealt double deck, there may very well be a significant benefit to exploring, learning and playing something more complex, a level 2 or 3, something with side counts, or even some sort of customized column count. But those players are a very small number. I don't think Moses's statement that he is 1 of 8 card counters that plays those games exclusively is that far off. Most of us are stuck with 6 or 8 deck shoe games, maybe with minimal double deck mixed in.

    And for most of us players, that 99.9, or 99.99 %, the increase in performance often talked about in these count discussions are just not achievable. That is not how 6/8 deck shoe games work. The best you can hope for is to identify those times that the ratio of high cards to low are abnormal, and almost any of these counts will do that. Almost any will identify most of these situations.

    So THAT is my big objection. Not that other counts don't work. They do! If that is what someone is comfortable with and decides is for them, that is what they should play. But I object to proponents of these counts, inflating expected increase in performance, as almost always happens. They simply are using a 1980's model of different games when they inflate these expectations. It is not 1980 and I don't have a time machine. So I just want anyone considering what count they should play to have realistic expectations, based on Today's games and conditions and real math.

    THAT is really my position, not the ultra pro-HiLo stance that I have become associated with. Quite simply anyone looking to change count to increase performance or win rate is barking up the wrong tree. Changing counts makes minimal difference for the vast majority of players. If you are really looking to increase performance and win rate and results there are other things, significant things that you can incorporate into your game that will do so. Things that really make a difference. I'll close with one of my favorite quotes. Changing counts, looking for improvement in performance is "chasing pennies when you should be chasing dollars".
    Last edited by kewlJ; 01-27-2019 at 04:15 PM.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But then we get into the difference in performance. Now I have always stated that for someone that plays only or the majority of handheld games, decent Single deck or deeply dealt double deck, there may very well be a significant benefit to exploring, learning and playing something more complex, a level 2 or 3, something with side counts, or even some sort of customized column count. But those players are a very small number. I don't think Moses's statement that he is 1 of 8 card counters that plays those games exclusively is that far off. Most of us are stuck with 6 or 8 deck shoe games, maybe with minimal double deck mixed in.:
    I still see a lot of asses in seats at pitch tables. Basically, a lot of Hiloer's with horrible money management skills which works to my advantage.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    THAT is really my position, not the ultra pro-HiLo stance that I have become associated with. Quite simply anyone looking to change count to increase performance or win rate is barking up the wrong tree. Changing counts makes minimal difference for the vast majority of players. If you are really looking to increase performance and win rate and results there are other things, significant things that you can incorporate into your game that will do so. Things that really make a difference. :
    You must be talking shoes.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I'll close with one of my favorite quotes. Changing counts, looking for improvement in performance is "chasing pennies when you should be chasing dollars".
    What is your time worth? Patience, discipline, consistency, and execution leaves no chase. The dollars and game comes to me. I don't chase anything...except my lady at Walmart. Man, is she elusive and fast.
    Last edited by Moses; 01-27-2019 at 09:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now blackjack and playing for a living or substantial supplemental income, I do know about. And I have one issue with your claim here. I have been to and played Reno, and a card counter just can't play at substantial stakes to make it worthwhile in my opinion. I wish you could because Reno is one hour and a $27 flight for me. If there was reasonable opportunity at reasonable stakes that was tolerated, Reno would be in my rotation. At least one trip each month.
    KJ, I believe LVBear plays Reno often. He has posted information on how to do so and what casinos handle substantial stakes. The key is short sessions.
    https://bj21.com/boards/free/sub_boa...?page=1#unread
    Last edited by Midwest Player; 01-27-2019 at 11:50 PM.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    KJ, I believe LVBear plays Reno often. He has posted information on how to do so and what casinos handle substantial stakes. The key is short sessions.
    https://bj21.com/boards/free/sub_boa...?page=1#unread
    MWP, I have read the article and am familiar with Bears thoughts, but it is a good resource for anyone who may nor be, and is interested in Reno for blackjack play, so good of you to post it.

    While I like and respect LVBear a great deal, my findings and opinions of Reno based on my experience as somewhat different. In short I find it to be sweaty and pretty intolerant of action greater than the very small stakes that the locals play. You bet above green and you are sticking out. Even with short sessions, which is my specialty, you won't get away with it for long. Reno is just too small, with limited playable casinos, IMO. Very similar to what I experienced towards the end of my days in Atlantic City (back when they had 12/13casinos). Your rotation is just going to be too small and you will see the same faces, both dealer and pit too frequently.

    One other problem, kind of unique to Reno is that the Casinos all communicate with each other, even though completely unaffiliated. We don't have that in Vegas. Here only the related properties, talk directly to each other. So that is an extra obstacle.

    In fairness, it has been a couple years since I have been to Reno. It wasn't one of my late partners favorite places. I probably should re-evaluate and try to play at least a couple short trips each year.

    And looking at Kayak, those $27 fights, now look to be $54. Still pretty cheap.

  13. #13
    I am disappointed I expected Maxpen to post up MEMEs and Alan to use the F word.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    The key is short sessions.
    Not so much if you play shoes. There are many DD games here.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    You bet above green and you are sticking out..
    Friday nights, Weekends, and Holiday Mondays you can find some $100 tables. High limit rooms at Atlantis, GSR, and Peppermill. Sometimes available weeknights. My understanding is some call ahead and have a $100 reserved. But to ask them to up it from $25 to $100 is not wise.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Even with short sessions, which is my specialty, you won't get away with it for long. Reno is just too small, with limited playable casinos, IMO. Very similar to what I experienced towards the end of my days in Atlantic City (back when they had 12/13casinos). Your rotation is just going to be too small and you will see the same faces, both dealer and pit too frequently..
    Not necessarily a bad thing if you're liked and don't try to bulldoze them.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    One other problem, kind of unique to Reno is that the Casinos all communicate with each other, even though completely unaffiliated. We don't have that in Vegas. Here only the related properties, talk directly to each other. So that is an extra obstacle.
    Also, pit bosses leave one casino and join another. So stay away from the little tikes.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And looking at Kayak, those $27 fights, now look to be $54. Still pretty cheap.
    I doubt you'd need to rent a car. The casinos have airport shuttles. The only casino downtown that would fit your shoe style is Silver Legacy. Is that a round trip flight? I should go see my cousin and warm up a little in the winter. A friend of mines wife seems to be kicking the crap out of the poker machine. There is some kind of a promotion at Harrah's. They just went on an all expense paid cruise.
    Last edited by Moses; 01-28-2019 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Friday nights, Weekends, and Holiday Mondays you can find some $100 tables. High limit rooms at Atlantis, GSR, and Peppermill. Sometimes available weeknights. My understanding is some call ahead and have a $100 reserved. But to ask them to up it from $25 to $100 is not wise.
    Table limits, both minimum and maximum really isn't the problem. The problem is different comfort or tolerance levels of the different casinos. And before you even say this sounds like someone else's terminology, it is NOT. It is my terminology! They stole it from me!

    So the point being I see plenty of places that have say, $25, $50 minimums and max bets limits of $1000, all the way up to $5000. On the surface you say hey great, I am easily within that range. Those numbers mean shit if they sweat a $200 bet. If they sweat $200, $300 action, then their limit is really about $100 despite what the little sign says.

    And spread also plays a big part. A guy sits down flat betting $300 is a lot different than someone spreading $25-$300. My approach has been to figure out for myself just what is tolerated and that has served me well.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Friday nights, Weekends, and Holiday Mondays you can find some $100 tables. High limit rooms at Atlantis, GSR, and Peppermill. Sometimes available weeknights. My understanding is some call ahead and have a $100 reserved. But to ask them to up it from $25 to $100 is not wise.
    Table limits, both minimum and maximum really isn't the problem. The problem is different comfort or tolerance levels of the different casinos. And before you even say this sounds like someone else's terminology, it is NOT. It is my terminology! They stole it from me!

    And spread also plays a big part. A guy sits down flat betting $300 is a lot different than someone spreading $25-$300. My approach has been to figure out for myself just what is tolerated and that has served me well.
    I noticed a guy playing stacks of blacks at one of the more tolerant casinos the other day. Problem was is spread. Plus he didn't seem to realize or care they dropped him to 5 rounds. The pit boss dropped what she was doing and stood at the table the entire time.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    So the point being I see plenty of places that have say, $25, $50 minimums and max bets limits of $1000, all the way up to $5000. On the surface you say hey great, I am easily within that range. Those numbers mean shit if they sweat a $200 bet. If they sweat $200, $300 action, then their limit is really about $100 despite what the little sign says. .
    Pushing the limits is what I was doing when my daughter was in college. It didn't take me long to get to know the unfriendly sorts and criminal element.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I guess I can't fault you too much for thinking Bob21 is a sock. That was my immediate response after his very first post as well. And I will tell you why: Because we don't get any new Blackjack "blood" here, let alone someone jumping on Moses's bandwagon.
    ..And the blackjack blood at BJTF is hurtin for certain. Gag me with a shit spoon.
    I am responding to this little ditty here rather than where it was posted so as to not further hijack Monet's Multi-card thread.

    I have said before the owners of these forums often have a very different agenda than the participants. It isn't hard to figure out Qfit's agenda at BJTF. QFIT sells blackjack software. Damn good blackjack software. AS a non-math guy, I don't think I would be where I am today without it. I don't think I could have figured out everything I needed to know on my own, especially the RoR and fractional Kelly wagering stuff. And without that, you probably go broke at some point.

    Now that said, who buys Qfit's software? Answer: new players. Experienced players, whether professional, recreational or somewhere in between, have already made the purchase. QFIT needs a steady influx of newbies to keep selling more software. He doesn't particularly want in depth blackjack discussion where experienced players answer many of the questions that newbies have. He wants the answer to those questions to be "you should invest in Qfit's software so you can answer these questions for yourself".

    And that is why he has gotten rid of many of the experienced knowledgeable members. Others he has allowed to remain but often makes them feel unwanted or unwelcome. Yeah, he needs 2 or 3 experienced guys that know what they are talking about to keep some discussions going to hopefully get to that "you should buy...." recommendation. But that's all he wants.

    AND this completely explains why he has not only allowed but protected a clown completely full of shit, that QFIT a math guy himself, knows is completely full of shit. The more nonsense such a member posts and is ALLOWED to post, the more that NEED for newer players to purchase the software just to get a straight answer.

    Nothing there happens by mistake. It is all carefully thought out, Moses.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Friday nights, Weekends, and Holiday Mondays you can find some $100 tables. High limit rooms at Atlantis, GSR, and Peppermill. Sometimes available weeknights. My understanding is some call ahead and have a $100 reserved. But to ask them to up it from $25 to $100 is not wise.
    Table limits, both minimum and maximum really isn't the problem. The problem is different comfort or tolerance levels of the different casinos. And before you even say this sounds like someone else's terminology, it is NOT. It is my terminology! They stole it from me!

    So the point being I see plenty of places that have say, $25, $50 minimums and max bets limits of $1000, all the way up to $5000. On the surface you say hey great, I am easily within that range. Those numbers mean shit if they sweat a $200 bet. If they sweat $200, $300 action, then their limit is really about $100 despite what the little sign says.

    And spread also plays a big part. A guy sits down flat betting $300 is a lot different than someone spreading $25-$300. My approach has been to figure out for myself just what is tolerated and that has served me well.
    You bring up some good points kewlJ. I’ve always wondered why casinos have these wide min/maxs when we all know most casinos would never allow this type of spreading for long.

    Counting has been around for over 50 years. The majority of casinos know a counter primarily beats them by spreading. They know flat betting can’t hurt them. Since this is their business, why would any casino allow spreading big for long? Btw, I can spot another counter pretty quick so I expect they can too.

    You say you’ve found some casinos that are more tolerant than others. What do you look for? How much camouflage betting do you use? Meaning do you do something like dual ramp betting or starting off the shoe with a bigger bet?

    I know some of this info is sensitive so you might not want to give advice on this. But since this site isn’t considered a bj site, I expect there aren’t many casino employees lurking here. But what do I know? Not much. Any adivce here is appreciated. And I also understand if you don’t want to give any.

  19. #19
    Good post KJ. I think it was after my 2nd or 3rd ban that I wrote Norm. I'd always spoke highly of his software and what it had to done for me personally. But I couldn't figure why Flash promoted himself to newbies for the price of a cup of coffee. T3 promoted Gronbogs software, which in essence, allowed T3 to sound like king of the mountain...without Norm's software. They never said anything good about Norm's software. So I ask Norm why the favoritism to the two ya hose? Norm said the forum wasn't about selling his software, like there was a bigger agenda at stake.

    I think it was to rope in the newbies so Flash could take advantage of them, which as you've stated, he's been known do to. They wanted me to put $50K in a bank in Florida for some sort of match proposal. I declined and told Flash to come with his cash and I'd be the house. He pretty much shut his pie hole after that.

    Norm has stated often to me "he wants quality and not quantity" posts. Now he has neither except for that 475 thread that is anything but quality. Also, the software has its flaws and is not perfect. It's okay for comparing SCORES or different tag values assigned. But you're doing it with information not totally accurate to how the game is or should be played. So you have to dig deeper and far below the surface of what you see is what you get.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You say you’ve found some casinos that are more tolerant than others. What do you look for? How much camouflage betting do you use? Meaning do you do something like dual ramp betting or starting off the shoe with a bigger bet?

    I know some of this info is sensitive so you might not want to give advice on this. But since this site isn’t considered a bj site, I expect there aren’t many casino employees lurking here. But what do I know? Not much. Any adivce here is appreciated. And I also understand if you don’t want to give any.
    I'd like to thank the forum AP's participating in this thread for donating such lucrative advice. This is one of the most educational threads in a long time here.

    I've been practicing the Hi/Low count now for awhile and think I'm ready to give it a go. I too would like to know some sensitive info. If you're willing to donate some but not in public, please don't hesitate to PM me.

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