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Thread: Gambling Forums

  1. #21
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Hi Bob,:
    Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy
    Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

    Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Hi Bob,:
    Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy
    Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

    Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.
    Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post

    Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol
    Let's see what I can do. Dan, I will trade you Flash, two of his puppets, and a first round future newbie at BJTF for Key Stoned.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post

    Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol
    Let's see what I can do. Dan, I will trade you Flash, two of his puppets, and a first round future newbie at BJTF for Key Stoned.
    WOW, the humor/insult onslaught continues....I feel like I`m in the middle of downtown Baghdad during Desert Storm....I am seriously outgunned here

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    WOW, the humor/insult onslaught continues....I feel like I`m in the middle of downtown Baghdad during Desert Storm....I am seriously outgunned here
    Now THAT was FUNNY. Okay, I will throw in T3 - (Hector, da plane, Norm, da plane). But I WANT SINGER. And he has to promise to do Karaoke and dance like Rob on Everybody Loves Raymond.

    Geez, I'm running out of bargaining chips. How am I going to get Crimm, Blackhole, and Monet?

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Camel fucker...
    Q: Why are camels called "ships of the desert?"

    A: Because they're filled with arab semen (sic).
    What, Me Worry?

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Yes, I have been asked numerous times to be on GWAE. While I appreciate the compliment that Munchkin, you and others have interest, I don't think that is the best platform for me. I am not a great communicator, either speaking or in written form. I often have trouble getting out just what I want to say and often have to go back and try to re-phrase to try to get my point across. That is bad enough in a written format, even worse as a guest answering questions. In addition, I sometimes write things that a short time later I regret, mostly because it is too much information, compromising information. On forums, at least I have a short time to go back and 'clean something up' if I change my mind. On GWAE, once said, it would be out there.


    I will give you my experience with the different forums. First forum I came across and the absolute best on the topic of blackjack and blackjack advantage play was blackjackinfo. Great forum, lots of successful players that shared their experiences and knowledge. As a young player, I benefited a great deal. Yes, there was a bit of sniping at one another. I have come to realize that is part of any forum. But looking back, blackjackinfo was minimal compared to today's forums.

    The original blackjackinfo shut down in Dec 2011. The Blackjackinfo that you are reading today is a re-incarnation, by different ownership and management, now owned by the same online group that brought WoV and later BJ21. Traffic at all these sites has declined greatly under that groups ownership, in part because some of the membership is uncomfortable with ownership by online casino industry although WoV has many other issues at play. Al Rogers who ran BJ21 for Stanford Wong, now runs blackjackinfo as well as BJ21 for the online group. Al is a great guy, a genuine AP, but he is the lone good point of the whole situation.

    So when BJinfo shut down, most of the membership migrated to Qfit's forum, because he made certain promises to change his ways. He didn't keep those promises and it quickly became clear BJTF was only about platform for promoting and selling his products and Norm extracting revenge on the many players he has had issues with over the years. Between bannings and most legit knowledgeable players leaving, BJTF has dwindled to what it is today, a couple "frauds" misleading players, protected by QFIT for the purpose of creating traffic, a very small handful of legit players, guarded in what they really share and a constant flow of newbies (potential new software clients), which is Norm's real desire.

    Most of the real and legit players migrated to a private forum run by a long-time member of Tommy Hyland's team. Membership requires you to meet and know current members who vouch for you. If you ask around about this forum, you will get no response, other than maybe "it doesn't exist".

    WoV was always on the edge of the Blackjack AP community, because it was not specific to blackjack, but rather blackjack AP was in the larger AP discussion, along with other topic related to casinos and gambling and having nothing to do with casinos and gambling. When I joined it became my favorite because it covered more than just blackjack AP. Over time as a result of Wizard's heavy handed moderator style, WoV has regressed in quality and membership size to what it is today, a shell of what it once was. My guess is that is OK with Shackleford. He made his money. Now it's just a play toy, where some of the loyal membership heaps praise on him. He seems to need that.

    So that is sort of the blackjack community Today.
    KewlJ, thank you for this detailed background. That helps me put the pieces together. I’m with you on not wanting to do an interview on GWAE. I wouldn’t do it either if I was ever asked (which I know won’t happen) for the reasons you gave.

    It’s interesting that you see Don Schlesinger on most of these sites. Is he getting paid to be on them or is he doing this out of the goodness of his heart? It’s great seeing someone like Don posting, and mixing it up with some of the posters.

    You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.
    Stealth is a cool poster. Unfortunately, you are correct. I don't know why the attacks are necessary. But I remember my first time ever on a forum. I'd ordered Norm's products and he told me to sign up. At the time, I was getting 86ed everywhere I played and treated rudely by casino personnel. But going to BJTF was like seeking a shelter and then having everyone beat the crap out of you once your arrived. So, after about 3 years, I figured out it was better to give than receive.

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.
    Stealth: while I don't know him, has always come off as knowledgeable and very professional to me. I know he is involved in team play, but really don't know what team or what other members, not that I would say so if I did, but I really don't.

    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm. And the great part, Norm read every word. We know this because he often commented about things posted there. So if you wanted to post something to/about Norm, you did it at ZZ, knowing he would read it.

    A really strange little tidbit about Zenzone: I was banned at WoV for something I posted at Zenzone. (I'll pause here for a second while THAT sinks in)

    It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.

    Again, shame on Michael Shackleford for both allowing himself to be played and bullied by QFIT and getting involved in something he really had no idea what it was all about.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 02-01-2019 at 08:33 PM.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.
    .
    Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm. I wonder which thread go him so upset?

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm. I wonder which thread go him so upset?
    I can tell you, if you really want to know, but most here have heard this story too many times.

  12. #32
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I can tell you, if you really want to know, but most here have heard this story too many times.
    You probably told me and I forgot. Fire away. Bob and K-stoned might get a kick out of it too.

  13. #33
    So after, Norm/Qfit banned me at his site, he showed up at WoV to continue our "feud". Norm was a member at WoV, but at that time had not posted in over 5 1/2 years, so he literally was chasing me around the internet to continue this feud. So one of the first things Norm does is contact Mike Shackleford 19 times in a 24 hour period demanding that Shackleford ban me. I mean, 19 times! How neurotic is that?

    I know this because two different moderators at WoV provided this information. They obviously got it from Shackleford, who must also have found Norm's behavior so bizarre and neurotic that he shared it with two moderators.

    Since I was prohibited from talking about Norm at WoV, I posted this information at Zenzone, exposing just how freaking crazy Norm Wattenberger is. I suspect that is what set Norm crying. I exposed what a freaking nut job he is. So he cried to Mike. And Mike banned me just as Norm was demanding.

    After Mike banned me, Mike and I were still communicating privately. Mike was trying to explain in inexplicable actions. Mike exact words: "I consider Norm a friend. He had done a favor with some blackjack work for me and when he asked me for this favor in return, I couldn't say no"

    This is when I lost all respect for Michael Shackleford. And until he rights this wrong....that he himself knows was wrong, he will never be right in my book. It will be 3 years next month. I honestly can't believe Shackleford has not stepped up and done the right thing. He just is not the man I thought him to be. Wattenberger is completely neurotic and crazy. Shackleford, just allowed himself to be bullied by this complete nut job. Mike wasn't man enough to stand up and say that's not how it works.

  14. #34
    And by the way, when I say Norm/QFIT chased me around the internet to continue this feud. WoV was not the only site. QFIT went to BJ21, 2+2 poker forums, gamblingforum (where a half dozen or so of us here were at prior to here). At each of these forums he created an account just to continue our feud. And at each of these forums he demanded that the forum owner/administrator ban me. Not a single forum owner did. Each told Norm to pound sand. Only Shackleford allowed himself to be bullied in this manner.

    And if I had to guess, I would guess, Norm is here. One of the several KJ attackers. I also wonder if he has contacted Dan Druff. I don't expect Dan to confirm or deny, but I would not be the least bit surprised.

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Norm is here:
    Hmmm. I wonder who that could be? The adventures of stormin Normin. I just assume everyone is Norm cuz he's so damn sneaky. lol Hell, I once had a nightmare and woke up thinking I was Norm. Ugh!

    There have been a few that pop in for a few posts that me think, could that be???? There was one short timer really on your ass that sounded way out there like T3.

    Good/Interesting/Informative posts KJ.

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And by the way, when I say Norm/QFIT chased me around the internet to continue this feud. WoV was not the only site. QFIT went to BJ21, 2+2 poker forums, gamblingforum (where a half dozen or so of us here were at prior to here). At each of these forums he created an account just to continue our feud. And at each of these forums he demanded that the forum owner/administrator ban me. Not a single forum owner did. Each told Norm to pound sand. Only Shackleford allowed himself to be bullied in this manner.

    And if I had to guess, I would guess, Norm is here. One of the several KJ attackers. I also wonder if he has contacted Dan Druff. I don't expect Dan to confirm or deny, but I would not be the least bit surprised.
    Yeah, I agree with Moses. Thanks for taking the time and sharing all this with us. I have read your Norm thread on the gamblingforum and saw Norm did respond to you a couple times. It was a long thread and took me a while to get through, but I still enjoyed reading it. I guess I’m kind of like a little old lady...I like some good gossip.

    Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people.

    Also, thanks for filling me in on zenzone. I’ve read a lot of blackjack books but I’m fairly new to forums. I wish now I’d gotten involved in them a long time ago. These forums have definitely helped my bj play. I’ve learned things from them you’d never learn in books.

    And some of the on-going feuds are interesting from an entertainment standpoint. You can see there are various clicks and sides taken. Three/Dummy is an interesting character. He can really write a lot without saying much. He posts so much I’ve always wondered when he found time to do anything else, much less play bj.

  17. #37
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people..
    Whoa. I'm sure glad I don't have that problem.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Three/Dummy is an interesting character. He can really write a lot without saying much. He posts so much I’ve always wondered when he found time to do anything else, much less play bj.
    Man...now there is an understatement. But a good one. Ask him what time it is and he'll tell everyone within range how to build a watch. How he watches others watch their watch.

    Good spot for my T3/cat joke if you haven't heard it. I'll see if I can find it.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Does Don get along with the bj community and Norm? I noticed it took him a while to get elected to the bj hall of fame. I don’t know all the details but I’ve read somewhere it has to do with his prickly personality. If you rub him the wrong way, I’ve seen he can go off on people.
    I don't know the situation as to why it took so long for Don to be elected to the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I suspect there was some politics involved.

    Don and Norm are friends and have been for like 40 years according to BOTH of them. When the T3 situation first began and several of us challenged those ridiculous claims, Don stayed uncharacteristically quiet. I am guess that was due to his friendship with Norm. He didn't want to be on the side challenging the fraud that Norm was protecting, so he just stayed quiet.

    And so those claims went on for a couple more years. I think at that point Don finally said enough is enough and challenged and completely debunked T3 claims, just as several of us attempted to do 2 years prior. I am sure Norm was not pleased about this. I have often wondered, about the private conversations that must have had regarding this.

    I personally think very highly of Don Schlesinger. I had just a couple private communications with him several years ago, and he has always been readily accessible to almost anyone on one of several forums that he participates on. You describe him as "prickly" and I think that is a very fair characterization. There are times I could do without the proper grammar and spelling corrections, especially when critical blackjack question has been raised and he responds with a spelling correction, rather than stay on topic. But Don was a teacher for a period, and I am guessing that is just who he is. It is what it is.

    I think most members of the blackjack Hall of Fame are or were fulltime professional players at least at some point, meaning at some point in timet heir livelihood depended on blackjack. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that was ever the case with either Don or Norm. I wonder if that is held against either. In my opinion, both deserve to be in the hall of fame because of their contribution to the blackjack community and the many players, professional and recreational that have benefited from those contributions, Don's Blackjack Attack 3, and Norm's software products.

    I am able to separate my personal feelings from the contributions worthy of consideration. But I wonder if all the voting members are able to do that. I mean Norm in particular has rubbed one hell of a lot of people including BJHoF members the wrong way. Pretty hard to vote for someone you just can't stand.

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.
    It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

    It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

    Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

    As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?

  20. #40
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.
    It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

    It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

    Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

    As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?
    LOL

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