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  1. #1
    With all the discussions currently going on about BJTF, wizard of odds, zenzone, this forum, etc, I thought this would be a good time to ask some general question about these forums. I’ve been curious on how all these forums came to be. What is the history behind them? The first forum I signed onto was bj21.com about 2 years ago. My handle was bob32. Don’t remember why I used 32, but bob has always been my go to name.

    I’m still a member there but don’t visit it much since it seems pretty dead. I probably should stop the autopay from my credit card so I don’t keep renewing my subscription. I got on that site to ask a blackjack question and the person that answerd it was Don S, so I was very impressed to get a personal reply from the legend himself.

    Back to my questions: Why are there so many blackjack forums? Why is one more popular than another? Why did bj21.com somewhat go by the wayside? What is blackjack.info? I also check it out from time to time, but nothing is usually going on there. I’ve been checking out zenzone more than the others due to Moses’s entertaining posts. Yes, I’ve become a Moses groupie too.

    The other one I always check out is wizard of odds, mostly because of some good advice from Romes. Why does he only post on that site? I know that’s not a question anybody but him can answer, but I’ve always wondered why I don’t see him on other forums. I listened to his GWAE podcast and thought it was excellent!

    This question is mostly for KJ since he seems to know the most about these forums, but anybody can answer. I’m just trying to understand better how and why these different sites came to be...and why some are more popular than others.

    I really like this one. It has a lot of good information and people aren’t scared of posting or being banned. It seems like that is a big thing with these different sites...banning people for trivial things. I also like that this site is free, but I don’t know why. I’m sure Dan could charge a token fee and we’d still all be here.

    One more question for KJ: Have you ever thought about being on GWAE? I think you'd make a great guest since your play is more in line with the average bj grinder. I really like your adivce. I’ve listened to the podcasts with Joe and Youshi but I have a hard time believing some of their stores. They claimed they made from $300,000 to $400,000 in their first year, starting with next to nothing. And seven figures within two or theee years. I know it’s possible but it’s hard for me to believe. Kj’s stories sound more believable. Anyway, I hope someday you can get on GMAE to tell your story.

    The other person who should be on GWAE is Moses. Wow, that would be one for the ages! It’d probably be one of the more popular podcasts with all Moses unique stores and sense of humor.

  2. #2
    Yes, I have been asked numerous times to be on GWAE. While I appreciate the compliment that Munchkin, you and others have interest, I don't think that is the best platform for me. I am not a great communicator, either speaking or in written form. I often have trouble getting out just what I want to say and often have to go back and try to re-phrase to try to get my point across. That is bad enough in a written format, even worse as a guest answering questions. In addition, I sometimes write things that a short time later I regret, mostly because it is too much information, compromising information. On forums, at least I have a short time to go back and 'clean something up' if I change my mind. On GWAE, once said, it would be out there.


    I will give you my experience with the different forums. First forum I came across and the absolute best on the topic of blackjack and blackjack advantage play was blackjackinfo. Great forum, lots of successful players that shared their experiences and knowledge. As a young player, I benefited a great deal. Yes, there was a bit of sniping at one another. I have come to realize that is part of any forum. But looking back, blackjackinfo was minimal compared to today's forums.

    The original blackjackinfo shut down in Dec 2011. The Blackjackinfo that you are reading today is a re-incarnation, by different ownership and management, now owned by the same online group that brought WoV and later BJ21. Traffic at all these sites has declined greatly under that groups ownership, in part because some of the membership is uncomfortable with ownership by online casino industry although WoV has many other issues at play. Al Rogers who ran BJ21 for Stanford Wong, now runs blackjackinfo as well as BJ21 for the online group. Al is a great guy, a genuine AP, but he is the lone good point of the whole situation.

    So when BJinfo shut down, most of the membership migrated to Qfit's forum, because he made certain promises to change his ways. He didn't keep those promises and it quickly became clear BJTF was only about platform for promoting and selling his products and Norm extracting revenge on the many players he has had issues with over the years. Between bannings and most legit knowledgeable players leaving, BJTF has dwindled to what it is today, a couple "frauds" misleading players, protected by QFIT for the purpose of creating traffic, a very small handful of legit players, guarded in what they really share and a constant flow of newbies (potential new software clients), which is Norm's real desire.

    Most of the real and legit players migrated to a private forum run by a long-time member of Tommy Hyland's team. Membership requires you to meet and know current members who vouch for you. If you ask around about this forum, you will get no response, other than maybe "it doesn't exist".

    WoV was always on the edge of the Blackjack AP community, because it was not specific to blackjack, but rather blackjack AP was in the larger AP discussion, along with other topic related to casinos and gambling and having nothing to do with casinos and gambling. When I joined it became my favorite because it covered more than just blackjack AP. Over time as a result of Wizard's heavy handed moderator style, WoV has regressed in quality and membership size to what it is today, a shell of what it once was. My guess is that is OK with Shackleford. He made his money. Now it's just a play toy, where some of the loyal membership heaps praise on him. He seems to need that.

    So that is sort of the blackjack community Today.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 02-01-2019 at 09:34 AM.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Yes, I have been asked numerous times to be on GWAE. While I appreciate the compliment that Munchkin, you and others have interest, I don't think that is the best platform for me. I am not a great communicator, either speaking or in written form. I often have trouble getting out just what I want to say and often have to go back and try to re-phrase to try to get my point across. That is bad enough in a written format, even worse as a guest answering questions. In addition, I sometimes write things that a short time later I regret, mostly because it is too much information, compromising information. On forums, at least I have a short time to go back and 'clean something up' if I change my mind. On GWAE, once said, it would be out there.


    I will give you my experience with the different forums. First forum I came across and the absolute best on the topic of blackjack and blackjack advantage play was blackjackinfo. Great forum, lots of successful players that shared their experiences and knowledge. As a young player, I benefited a great deal. Yes, there was a bit of sniping at one another. I have come to realize that is part of any forum. But looking back, blackjackinfo was minimal compared to today's forums.

    The original blackjackinfo shut down in Dec 2011. The Blackjackinfo that you are reading today is a re-incarnation, by different ownership and management, now owned by the same online group that brought WoV and later BJ21. Traffic at all these sites has declined greatly under that groups ownership, in part because some of the membership is uncomfortable with ownership by online casino industry although WoV has many other issues at play. Al Rogers who ran BJ21 for Stanford Wong, now runs blackjackinfo as well as BJ21 for the online group. Al is a great guy, a genuine AP, but he is the lone good point of the whole situation.

    So when BJinfo shut down, most of the membership migrated to Qfit's forum, because he made certain promises to change his ways. He didn't keep those promises and it quickly became clear BJTF was only about platform for promoting and selling his products and Norm extracting revenge on the many players he has had issues with over the years. Between bannings and most legit knowledgeable players leaving, BJTF has dwindled to what it is today, a couple "frauds" misleading players, protected by QFIT for the purpose of creating traffic, a very small handful of legit players, guarded in what they really share and a constant flow of newbies (potential new software clients), which is Norm's real desire.

    Most of the real and legit players migrated to a private forum run by a long-time member of Tommy Hyland's team. Membership requires you to meet and know current members who vouch for you. If you ask around about this forum, you will get no response, other than maybe "it doesn't exist".

    WoV was always on the edge of the Blackjack AP community, because it was not specific to blackjack, but rather blackjack AP was in the larger AP discussion, along with other topic related to casinos and gambling and having nothing to do with casinos and gambling. When I joined it became my favorite because it covered more than just blackjack AP. Over time as a result of Wizard's heavy handed moderator style, WoV has regressed in quality and membership size to what it is today, a shell of what it once was. My guess is that is OK with Shackleford. He made his money. Now it's just a play toy, where some of the loyal membership heaps praise on him. He seems to need that.

    So that is sort of the blackjack community Today.
    KewlJ, thank you for this detailed background. That helps me put the pieces together. I’m with you on not wanting to do an interview on GWAE. I wouldn’t do it either if I was ever asked (which I know won’t happen) for the reasons you gave.

    It’s interesting that you see Don Schlesinger on most of these sites. Is he getting paid to be on them or is he doing this out of the goodness of his heart? It’s great seeing someone like Don posting, and mixing it up with some of the posters.

    You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.
    Stealth is a cool poster. Unfortunately, you are correct. I don't know why the attacks are necessary. But I remember my first time ever on a forum. I'd ordered Norm's products and he told me to sign up. At the time, I was getting 86ed everywhere I played and treated rudely by casino personnel. But going to BJTF was like seeking a shelter and then having everyone beat the crap out of you once your arrived. So, after about 3 years, I figured out it was better to give than receive.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You didn’t mention anything about zenzone but I figured it is one of those more obscure forums. I wouldn’t have even known about it if it wasn’t for someone on BJTF pointing out that Moses was posting over there. Over time, it looks like he’s developed his own fan club on zenzone, so maybe in the future zenzone will be called Moses’ zone. I like the way Moses calls it his own little island.

    One of my favorite posters on BJTF is Slealth. He doesn’t get involved in the snipping and name calling too much. But I agree, you need a little of this otherwise these forums wouldn’t be much fun and nobody would be on them. The issue I see is people need to get a thicker skin and not take some of these attacks so personal. I like a good put down, even if it’s directed at me.
    Stealth: while I don't know him, has always come off as knowledgeable and very professional to me. I know he is involved in team play, but really don't know what team or what other members, not that I would say so if I did, but I really don't.

    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm. And the great part, Norm read every word. We know this because he often commented about things posted there. So if you wanted to post something to/about Norm, you did it at ZZ, knowing he would read it.

    A really strange little tidbit about Zenzone: I was banned at WoV for something I posted at Zenzone. (I'll pause here for a second while THAT sinks in)

    It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.

    Again, shame on Michael Shackleford for both allowing himself to be played and bullied by QFIT and getting involved in something he really had no idea what it was all about.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 02-01-2019 at 08:33 PM.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    It was something I posted to stab at Norm. Norm read it, cried to Mike Shackleford, who banned me "for something posted on another forum". I can guarantee Shackleford never read another thing at Zenzone before that or since that. He just read that because crybaby Norm, cried to him.
    .
    Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm. I wonder which thread go him so upset?

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Hmmm. I don't recall you ever saying anything derogatory about Norm. I wonder which thread go him so upset?
    I can tell you, if you really want to know, but most here have heard this story too many times.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.
    It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

    It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

    Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

    As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Zenzone: Zenzone originated from the old blackjackinfo. It was a subsection where players could post all of the garbage, without it clogging up the main forum. Maybe that is what made blackjackinfo work. When blackjackinfo shut down, Ken Smith sold off zenzone (or maybe just gave it) to a member known as Zengrifter, another longterm member of the community, who has a long history with Norm (QFIT). Zengrifter as everyone expected was the very first person Norm banned at BJTF, breaking his promise not to retaliate against those he had previous issues with.

    So some of us that got banned by Norm showed up at Zenzone to post a bit. There was a little bit of blackjack discussion, but mostly just a place to vent about Norm.
    It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

    It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

    Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

    As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?
    LOL

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    It’s interesting to see what’s been going on at blackjack the forum lately. Zenzone and Moses have been getting so much press, Norm recently asked his minions to please stop discussions about ZZ. This is interesting in light of Norm in the past discussing (really making disparaging comments) about ZZ on his forum. I remember him calling it an anti-Semitic site.

    It looks like people on BJTF have been lurking on this forum and Zenzone and then feeding off it. Probably because nothing much interesting is going on over there now...and they always need someone to attack.

    Even though Moses has been banned from BJTF, he appears to be somewhat controlling the narrative on that forum recently. That’s quite a skill set.

    As far as Norm, he does seem to be selective in how he enforces his own rules. With his favorites, he allows them to call people names and attack them without doing anything. If someone’s not his favorite, he puts them in “time out” (basically bans them for 3 days or some time interval). It reminds me of a kindergarten teacher and what she does to someone when they misbehave. Who knew these forums would be so much like kindergarten?
    Excellent post Bob. Very astute observation. Your mama didn't raise no dummies.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Back to my questions: Why are there so many blackjack forums? Why is one more popular than another? Why did bj21.com somewhat go by the wayside? What is blackjack.info? I also check it out from time to time, but nothing is usually going on there. I’ve been checking out zenzone more than the others due to Moses’s entertaining posts. Yes, I’ve become a Moses groupie too..
    Thanks Bob 21. KJ has some excellent posts at ZZ that go back a few years. To say KJ and I are friends would be a stretch as I'm sure he agrees. But we are in the same profession and I do respect him. The reason is because he is consistent and stands up for what he believes in no matter who it's against or what price is paid.

    My idea sort of piggy backed off what KJ had been doing. Norm deletes posts and BJTF is his own little world of make believe, with puppets, and those who fear the ruler of the evil empire. Much like the Conway Twitty song "It's only Make Believe."

    People see us everywhere.
    They think Norm really cares.
    But what they can't conceive
    It's not real and only Make Believe


    For me, ZZ is simply an extension of the posts I made at BJTF, only now with free of speech and to expose BJTF for the fantasies and lies they project and the puppets they protect. It may not always be real good. But it is always real. And that scares people at BJTF, so they call it crazy because it's their only defense. Have you yet to see one of them come over and challenge me? No, and you won't because most are not even real and the ones who are real are scared shitless of Norm Whatthefuucker.

    So T3 calls ZZ misfits because it's primarily a group that was banned from the fantasy world of BJTF. T3 is like the little guy saying "Norm da plane, da plane."
    However, if you do a little research of T3 and others. They've been banned from many forums and easy to identity when a Dummy goes on under a different name. He just gets drilled. His volumes of words on other sites are of no value whatsoever.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    This question is mostly for KJ since he seems to know the most about these forums, but anybody can answer. I’m just trying to understand better how and why these different sites came to be...and why some are more popular than others..
    Yes. KJ is an excellent resource. HE should consider starting his own newsletter.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    The other person who should be on GWAE is Moses. Wow, that would be one for the ages! It’d probably be one of the more popular podcasts with all Moses unique stores and sense of humor.
    I call 'em like I see 'em. Like you said, I don't put my finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. I'd probably need body guards to protect me against Norm and his little Army of nerds carrying water pistols.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-01-2019 at 09:37 AM.

  12. #12
    Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��
    It's called mutual respect. It's not like queers or anything. If that were the case, we'd wear our hair and clothes like...YOURS. LOL
    Last edited by Moses; 02-01-2019 at 09:53 AM.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��
    It's called mutual respect. It's not like queers or anything. If that were the case, we'd wear are hair and clothes like...YOURS. LOL
    Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?
    Woo Baby! Not THAT was one helluva comeback. I thought you trolls had more in you than that?

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Yes, mutual respect...I`ve heard it called that before.....and its "our" hair and clothes, not "are"....damn spellcheck huh?
    Woo Baby! Not THAT was one helluva comeback. I thought you trolls had more in you than that?
    Sorry to disappoint you...and please, save the “baby’s” for Bob

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��
    Hey Keystone, you aren’t too far from being wrong, but just not in the way you think.

    What do I like about Moses? First, he has a creative sense of humor. When he puts someone down, it’s not just by name calling, although that is part of his repertoire. Second, he doesn’t back down from anybody.

    Have you seen the recent exchanges between Moses and the gang from BJTF? There are a couple self righteous APs at BJTF that are throwing some pretty nasty insults his way, knowing he can’t respond. Most people would go in a shell with this many people firing away at them. Moses? It doesn’t phase him. He comes at them with two barrels blazing...and I thought did an excellent job of putting them in their place.

    So yeah, I guess you could say I have a crush on Moses, if that’s what you want to call it. I encourage you to go over to zenzone and catch up on some of his recent posts. He’s getting a lot of views (think groupies). Who knows, if you start going over there, you might become one too. Lol.

    Btw, blackhole thinks I have a crush on kJ. I enjoy kj’s posts too but they don’t have the low brow Midwest humor you see in Moses’s.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Man, this Bob dude has a serious crush on Moses ��
    Hey Keystone, you aren’t too far from being wrong, but just not in the way you think.

    What do I like about Moses? First, he has a creative sense of humor. When he puts someone down, it’s not just by name calling, although that is part of his repertoire. Second, he doesn’t back down from anybody.

    Have you seen the recent exchanges between Moses and the gang from BJTF? There are a couple self righteous APs at BJTF that are throwing some pretty nasty insults his way, knowing he can’t respond. Most people would go in a shell with this many people firing away at them. Moses? It doesn’t phase him. He comes at them with two barrels blazing...and I thought did an excellent job of putting them in their place.

    So yeah, I guess you could say I have a crush on Moses, if that’s what you want to call it. I encourage you to go over to zenzone and catch up on some of his recent posts. He’s getting a lot of views (think groupies). Who knows, if you start going over there, you might become one too. Lol.

    Btw, blackhole thinks I have a crush on kJ. I enjoy kj’s posts too but they don’t have the low brow Midwest humor you see in Moses’s.
    Hi Bob, glad to converse with you...Yes, the above that you stated and that I highlighted was all I was saying....You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Hi Bob,:
    Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy
    Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

    Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Hi Bob,:
    Wasn't that a drinking game back in college? Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.

    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    You seem like a nice, level headed person, and not a hothead like Moses....Yikes, he`s a scary guy
    Why thank you! Rumor has it they a seeking a new moderator at BJTF considering Norm can no longer do his job. Hmmm. What about Bob?

    Never mind Key stoned you won't understand.
    Key stoned...absolutely brilliant, seriously....Bob sure is right, any room for me on Team Moses? I may be developing a little crush of my own lololololololololololol

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