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Thread: Halves versus Hi Opt 2 challengers

  1. #21
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    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    I agree. But I wanted complete unbiased results.
    There really is no such thing. And everything you have written says you aren't really searching for unbiased anyway.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    In the case referenced in Norm's book it was a level 1 count vs a level 2. Moses is comparing a level 2 to a level 3. Same exact thing, you must account for a higher error rate and nobody ever does. How much of a higher error rate? I don't know. Is it enough to wipe out any benefit that a simulation might show? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe for some players, but not others. But by god, you have to account for the error rate, because it is there in real world play and these guys that live and die by their simulations NEVER do.
    However, in this case, the level 2 has a side count. Whether I count 1.5 or 2 make no difference in counting. But I'd like to see those who claim to maintain an Ace side count over 6 decks and/or an Ace/7 over 2 decks. I've NEVER seen it done. The reason I didn't compare error rates is because I wanted an apples to apples sim.

    Now, yes, I agree that if you were comparing Hi LO to one these counts you would have to somehow allow for the error rate.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    I agree. But I wanted complete unbiased results.
    There really is no such thing. And everything you have written says you aren't really searching for unbiased anyway.
    How is not unbiased? Are you familiar with CV Data? IT's a step by step process. I didn't even pick the data. I let Midwest Player do it.

    It's called work. You've been yapping your damn ass off for how many years now? I wanted to finally put a number to all this shit.

    WTF do I care which one comes out on top? The results are the results. Are you accusing me of cheating or being a liar?

    Here it is in a nutshell. Tarzan (4 step process) performs less that Hi Opt II (2 step process). Now we see Hi Opt II (2 step process) performs less than Wong Halves (1 step process) which finally shuts Flash up. And it did it without the Insurance count selected. But none of it matters because they can't perform do it over 2 decks anyway...much less 6.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-03-2019 at 09:16 PM.

  4. #24
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    Boy, you and I are not on the same page on this one Moses.

    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Whether I count 1.5 or 2 make no difference in counting.
    It does make a difference. Proven science says it does. Like I said, you guys conveniently seem to disregard that.

    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    But I'd like to see those who claim to maintain an Ace side count over 6 decks and/or an Ace/7 over 2 decks. I've NEVER seen it done.
    I side count aces in 6 deck/8 deck games. It is something I started doing when I moved to Las Vegas and incorporated double deck games into my play cycle. I mean, in double deck there are 8 aces. It is almost hard not to know how many have been played. And once I started side counting aces, it sort of becomes natural. Kind of hard to turn it off, so I do it even in shoe games.

    Now there is an issue of what to do with that information. If you are playing an ace reckoned count (as I do), there is a real danger of almost anything you do with that additional information as over compensating. Sort of weighing that same information twice. Really all I do is use the ace information for more accurate insurance decisions and sometimes bump my wager up just a little bit early if the over all count is neutral (an area that I wouldn't normally raise wager), but I know there is a surplus of aces remaining.

    Now I know I am thought of, advocate and proudly talk about how I play a very simplistic game, and now I am contradicting that a little. It is what it is....what can I tell you. I never sat down and said, I am going to start side counting aces because I think there is some great benefit to that. Like I said, it is almost hard not to in double deck, when you are talking about 8 total aces and once you start, you can't really turn it off.

    That said, I do manage to turn it off at times. If I am tracking a second table, or even times when I am playing heads up with a very fast dealer, I can just drop that side count and focus on my primary count. Sort of the best of both worlds, I guess.

    Anyway, I am done with this discussion. You (moses) and MWP can continue your count debate/discussion with screenshots of simulations, to your hearts content.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Whether I count 1.5 or 2 make no difference in counting.
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    It does make a difference. Proven science says it does. Like I said, you guys conveniently seem to disregard that..
    What scientist sits around doing that? I count 5 as 1.5 and 6 as 1.5. I've counted 5 as 2 and 6 as 1.5. Both are easy peasy.

    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    But I'd like to see those who claim to maintain an Ace side count over 6 decks and/or an Ace/7 over 2 decks. I've NEVER seen it done.
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I side count aces in 6 deck/8 deck games. It is something I started doing when I moved to Las Vegas and incorporated double deck games into my play cycle. I mean, in double deck there are 8 aces. It is almost hard not to know how many have been played. And once I started side counting aces, it sort of becomes natural. Kind of hard to turn it off, so I do it even in shoe games..
    Without error? You just got through saying no one could do either count flawlessly.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now there is an issue of what to do with that information. If you are playing an ace reckoned count (as I do), there is a real danger of almost anything you do with that additional information as over compensating. Sort of weighing that same information twice. Really all I do is use the ace information for more accurate insurance decisions and sometimes bump my wager up just a little bit early if the over all count is neutral (an area that I wouldn't normally raise wager), but I know there is a surplus of aces remaining.

    Now I know I am thought of, advocate and proudly talk about how I play a very simplistic game, and now I am contradicting that a little. It is what it is....what can I tell you. Like I said, I never sat down and said, I am going to start side counting aces because I think there is some great benefit to that...
    Sound like an end run to me.
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Like I said, it is almost hard not to in double deck, when you are talking about 8 total aces and once you start, you can't really turn it off..
    I said and 7's for DD. That's 3 components. You're better off with a tens count because that is when the big money if on the table.
    Every sim I ran in pitch punishes SCORE if the 2 has a higher tag value than the 7. So why side count the 7? Just drop the 2.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-03-2019 at 09:38 PM.

  6. #26
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    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Without error? You just got through saying no one couldn't do either count flawlessly.
    Where did I say I do anything without error? I play a simple level 1 count and I am not delusional enough to think that I do that without error. Human beings make errors. I am a human being, not a computer simulation.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Both must be played flawlessly to achieve those results. Never happening in the real world!
    Exactly! Only happens that way on your computer screen. (which is the only place some of these guys actually play).
    Here. You're wearing two hats in this thread. First, you don't see a value in side counting Aces. Yet have done it over 6 and 8 decks.

    No, I do not believe someone can track 24 Aces without screwing up. At least with Hi LO or Wong Halves you still have a main count to fall back on. But with Hi Opt II you're screwed.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-03-2019 at 09:55 PM.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Anyway, I am done with this discussion. You (moses) and MWP can continue your count debate/discussion with screenshots of simulations, to your hearts content.
    I will let that one go this time. This sims I posted were comparison numbers apples to apples. You created confusion to confound the understanding to you liking.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-03-2019 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #29
    An old investment saying. Look at the numbers. Don't listen to the noise.


    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
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    Last edited by Moses; 02-03-2019 at 10:26 PM.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    I side count aces in 6 deck/8 deck games. It is something I started doing when I moved to Las Vegas and incorporated double deck games into my play cycle. I mean, in double deck there are 8 aces. It is almost hard not to know how many have been played. And once I started side counting aces, it sort of becomes natural. Kind of hard to turn it off, so I do it even in shoe games.

    Now there is an issue of what to do with that information. If you are playing an ace reckoned count (as I do), there is a real danger of almost anything you do with that additional information as over compensating. Sort of weighing that same information twice. Really all I do is use the ace information for more accurate insurance decisions and sometimes bump my wager up just a little bit early if the over all count is neutral (an area that I wouldn't normally raise wager), but I know there is a surplus of aces remaining.

    Now I know I am thought of, advocate and proudly talk about how I play a very simplistic game, and now I am contradicting that a little. It is what it is....what can I tell you. I never sat down and said, I am going to start side counting aces because I think there is some great benefit to that. Like I said, it is almost hard not to in double deck, when you are talking about 8 total aces and once you start, you can't really turn it off.

    That said, I do manage to turn it off at times. If I am tracking a second table, or even times when I am playing heads up with a very fast dealer, I can just drop that side count and focus on my primary count. Sort of the best of both worlds, I guess.

    Anyway, I am done with this discussion. You (moses) and MWP can continue your count debate/discussion with screenshots of simulations, to your hearts content.
    KwelJ, this is good information. Thank you! I use Hilo and try to side count aces too since I play mostly DD. I like the way you summarized how you use your ace side count. Thatís pretty much what I do too. Iíve used several different methods to side count aces, but found I mostly just keep a mental note of how many Iíve seen. What method do you use? Just curious if there is an easier way that I donít know about.

    Also have you ever side counted 7s in DD? Itís my understanding that this is the second most important card to side count.

    This is an area where Iím totally in your camp, and totally disagree with Moses, meaning go with a simple count (Hilo). Btw, Mutchkin also agrees with the simple approach. I thought he brought up a good point on one of his podcasts. He said if you want to get 15% more out of counting just play 15% longer or make your max bet 15% higher. This accompishes the same thing and is a lot essier than learning a harder, higher level count.

  11. #31
    Bob. I think we are veering off topic. But I think you make some excellent points. This thread was simply to compare Hi Opt II to Wong Halves for shoe games.

    Hilo and pitch games had nothing to do with the summary. But maybe start a new thread regarding HiLO, Hi Opt II, side counts in pitch?

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