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Thread: Hi Opt II and Hilo for pitch games

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  1. #1
    KJ has stated many times that Hi Opt II went out in the 80s and I agree.

    But now he states all the benefits of it in a pitch game. Very confusing.

    Hi LO in pitch? My quarter says no with todays rules, pen, and heat.

  2. #2
    Moses, why are you looking to argue/debate with me? That's what it feels like.

    Neither of these first two statements are factual.

    Hi-opt2 was the first count I learned from the first blackjack book I read. My issue with it was the basic hi-opt2 doesn't account for the ace, the most important card in play. You have to side count it and make adjustments. I wanted a count that DID account for the most important card without extra work. THAT is why I ditched hi-opt2.

    What did change in the 80's, was the games available to most players. The whole eastern half of the U.S., the most populated area along the eastern coast had Atlantic City. That was all shoe games. No double deck. No single deck. Las Vegas also went to shoe games at that time. While there was a mix of single and double deck still available, that diminished over time until today it is shoe games or double deck. No REAL single deck, only 6:5. And the double deck are counter traps.

    And in the last 10 years most of the many jurisdictions that have opened, the majority of games are shoe games. So your hand held games, double deck and especially single deck are a relic from the past. The only place you can get single deck is Reno and a couple of the smaller Nevada towns. So any count, like hi-otp2 and others that specifically benefits these games is also becoming obsolete.

    For shoe games, which again is what most players have access to, almost any count will work, barring something ridiculous like A-5 or speed count. But any reasonable count that identified an imbalance in the ratio of10/A to small cards will work...and work pretty close to equally as well. That extra "power" from multi-level counts and even side counts is greatly diminished, if not disappears completely.

    So therefore, for most players it doesn't matter at all. It is pennies. It really is. any player in that situation, which is most players, thinking such a counts adds something or will make a difference in their results is just barking up the wrong tree.

    Now, I have always said, a player such as yourself, that only has access to and plays single deck games or double deck games with decent penetration (greater than 60%), could still find benefits such counts and techniques But that is just NOT most players.

    Now like I said, I do play some "pitch" after I moved to Vegas. It is double deck.....fairly deeply dealt double deck And to that their would be some benefit to playing a stronger count or knowledge of the aces. Well, double deck makes up probably 15-20% (probably closer to 15% and is dropping every year) of my total play. So I am not going to play a count that only benefits 15% of my play. AND I am not going to use different counts for different games...That is begging for a higher error rate. So I play a simple count, which still works fine in double deck, and I side count aces in double deck.

    AND, like I said with the side counting aces, I didn't wake up one morning and say, "gee, I think I will start side counting aces" It just happened. 8 aces...almost hard to not know when too few or too many have been played.

    So, please, stop twisting everything I say around. You do what the fuck you want to do. In exactly one month from today, March 4, it will be 15 years since I worked for anyone and/or received a "paycheck". I am doing pretty well doing what I am doing. And I am very comfortable sharing my experiences and making recommendations based on that experience.

    Now I gotta go to work. (shades of Norm's "I have work to do". ) I always liked that Norm fella

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Moses, why are you looking to argue/debate with me? That's what it feels like.
    It seemed that was the direction you chose to take in the other thread. Typical of BJFT they create confusion by inserting Double Deck talk with shoe rhetoric. Two completely different games.


    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    No REAL single deck, only 6:5.:
    Plenty of 3.2 single deck here.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And the double deck are counter traps..:
    Which is what I've been reading. SO it's a non issue. No?

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And in the last 10 years most of the many jurisdictions that have opened, the majority of games are shoe games. So your hand held games, double deck and especially single deck are a relic from the past. The only place you can get single deck is Reno and a couple of the smaller Nevada towns. So any count, like hi-otp2 and others that specifically benefits these games is also becoming obsolete. ..:
    And that is what I'm saying. 1.) you can't get deep enough into a single deck or double deck for the worth of Hi Opt II, HiLo, to kick in. 2.) A 1 to 8 spread doesn't provide enough to bet valued hands to make up for the losses on hands without value. Hence, just when you get a great deck composition? They shuffle.

    So yes, I'm happy to be the house for these conditions.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    For shoe games, which again is what most players have access to, almost any count will work, barring something ridiculous like A-5 or speed count. But any reasonable count that identified an imbalance in the ratio of10/A to small cards will work...and work pretty close to equally as well. That extra "power" from multi-level counts and even side counts is greatly diminished, if not disappears completelySo therefore, for most players it doesn't matter at all. It is pennies. It really is. any player in that situation, which is most players, thinking such a counts adds something or will make a difference in their results is just barking up the wrong tree.:
    In a nutshell. It's counterproductive. Just like all the forum rhetoric regarding shoes.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now, I have always said, a player such as yourself, that only has access to and plays single deck games or double deck games with decent penetration (greater than 60%), could still find benefits such counts and techniques But that is just NOT most players..:
    6 rounds straight is not enough pen for a column count, Tarzan count, or Hi Opt II to kick it. Those are PE driven. Now, if you utilize the PE which is primarily odd plays on minimum bets hands? You're doomed to be preferential shuffled on future hands. I'm not saying I can't win with a column count. I'm saying it takes forever and my time is not worth the investment or reward. Even at black chip tables. So, tons of research and I've found a way to make it worth my time.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Now like I said, I do play some "pitch" after I moved to Vegas. It is double deck.....fairly deeply dealt double deck And to that their would be some benefit to playing a stronger count or knowledge of the aces. Well, double deck makes up probably 15-20% (probably closer to 15% and is dropping every year) of my total play. So I am not going to play a count that only benefits 15% of my play. AND I am not going to use different counts for different games...That is begging for a higher error rate. So I play a simple count, which still works fine in double deck, and I side count aces in double deck:
    I'm not saying you have to jump of a bridge with a complex count. Especially, if you only get 12 rounds straight up. But some minor tweaking would do wonders in a straight up game. With others at the table? I wouldn't know. So if your 15-20% play is not straight up. Then you're right. It's not worth it. However, if ones game is nearly all straight up? Then one better have or get game.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    AND, like I said with the side counting aces, I didn't wake up one morning and say, "gee, I think I will start side counting aces" It just happened. 8 aces...almost hard to not know when too few or too many have been played.:
    Aces don't need to be counted with your brain. It's all in the fingers.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    In exactly one month from today, March 4, it will be 15 years since I worked for anyone and/or received a "paycheck". I am doing pretty well doing what I am doing. And I am very comfortable sharing my experiences and making recommendations based on that experience..:
    1984 for me from a regular job. I didn't twist anything around. Just trying to stay on course. You pulled the T3 move and went off in another direction.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-04-2019 at 11:31 AM.

  4. #4
    Ya know, I am ok with some blackjack discussion here. It is sort of nice. But the fact is there are very few blackjack players on this site and even fewer that even try to play with an advantage. So, I am not sure why we should have such in-depth discussions. I guess maybe there area couple lurkers or members not participating than might take something away from such a discussion. I guess that is what I hope for.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Ya know, I am ok with some blackjack discussion here. It is sort of nice. But the fact is there are very few blackjack players on this site and even fewer that even try to play with an advantage. So, I am not sure why we should have such in-depth discussions. I guess maybe there area couple lurkers or members not participating than might take something away from such a discussion. I guess that is what I hope for.
    What is with you? You seem to think you have to be in charge of everything. There were like 200 posts about Singers dick for crissake. Are you not just a poster?

  6. #6
    Okay, time for me to chime in here. First, everything I've read says DD is more similar to six and eight deck than single, so we should stop lumping DD with Single. Yes, they are both pitch games, but that's where the similarities end. If HiLo is good for shoe games, than it is good for DD.

    I play about 80% DD and only 20% shoe. I looked at going to a higher level count and spent time trying to learn Hi Opt II. But after I bought Norm's products, did some sims and understood the game better, I realized I was spending a lot of entergy (brain power) for very little gain. This game isn't as complicated as some make it out to be. All you need to know is when there are more high cards left in the deck (which is what Hilo does) and you'll know you have an advantage, which means you should bet more. I get it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. The more complicated part is getting a big bank roll and being able to financially and mentally handle the negative swings, which are inenvitable.

    As far as kewlj's comments that this is not a blackjack site, he might be right, but I follow poster and don't care about the site they are posting on. I've always liked kewlj's posts...he's honesty and I like his straightforward simple approach to blackjack. He's gives excellent advice and relates his personal experience playing this game as a full time profesion. I also like Romes comments so I lurk on Wizard of Oz. I spend time on BJTF, but many of the BJTF people (and it's not only Three) try to make the game as complicated as possible, probably to show the world how smart they are.

    With this said, I've learned from BJTF, but lately it appears to have become more of a name calling and insult site. Their members (some call them minions) like to dish it out, but they're a very senstive group and not very good at taking it. If you hit them too hard, they will take their ball and go home, not wanting to play anymore.

    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Okay, time for me to chime in here. First, everything I've read says DD is more similar to six and eight deck than single, so we should stop lumping DD with Single. Yes, they are both pitch games, but that's where the similarities end. If HiLo is good for shoe games, than it is good for DD.

    I play about 80% DD and only 20% shoe. I looked at going to a higher level count and spent time trying to learn Hi Opt II. But after I bought Norm's products, did some sims and understood the game better, I realized I was spending a lot of entergy (brain power) for very little gain. This game isn't as complicated as some make it out to be. All you need to know is when there are more high cards left in the deck (which is what Hilo does) and you'll know you have an advantage, which means you should bet more. I get it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. The more complicated part is getting a big bank roll and being able to financially and mentally handle the negative swings, which are inenvitable.

    As far as kewlj's comments that this is not a blackjack site, he might be right, but I follow poster and don't care about the site they are posting on. I've always liked kewlj's posts...he's honesty and I like his straightforward simple approach to blackjack. He's gives excellent advice and relates his personal experience playing this game as a full time profesion. I also like Romes comments so I lurk on Wizard of Oz. I spend time on BJTF, but many of the BJTF people (and it's not only Three) try to make the game as complicated as possible, probably to show the world how smart they are.

    With this said, I've learned from BJTF, but lately it appears to have become more of a name calling and insult site. Their members (some call them minions) like to dish it out, but they're a very senstive group and not very good at taking it. If you hit them too hard, they will take their ball and go home, not wanting to play anymore.

    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Lol...this shit is priceless

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Okay, time for me to chime in here. First, everything I've read says DD is more similar to six and eight deck than single, so we should stop lumping DD with Single. Yes, they are both pitch games, but that's where the similarities end. If HiLo is good for shoe games, than it is good for DD.
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I play about 80% DD and only 20% shoe.
    What percentage is straight up? Do you set a limit on number of other players at the table?

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I looked at going to a higher level count and spent time trying to learn Hi Opt II. But after I bought Norm's products, did some sims and understood the game better, I realized I was spending a lot of entergy (brain power) for very little gain. This game isn't as complicated as some make it out to be. All you need to know is when there are more high cards left in the deck (which is what Hilo does) and you'll know you have an advantage, which means you should bet more. I get it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. The more complicated part is getting a big bank roll and being able to financially and mentally handle the negative swings, which are inenvitable..
    Interesting comments. I'm sorry Bob. But in a straight up game of 12 rounds, Hi Lo is not going to offer enough prime bet opportunities. IF you believe in SCORE, which I do, and you have ran several card tag sim variations, as I have, and if you've played as many hands as I have, then you will see there is little correlation between SCORE and BC,PE. It's going to take more than a 51% 49% win/loss ratio at higher TC and 1 to 8 spread in order to come out. Thus I see high value on the dealers side of the table. Now, if you love to play and enjoy the others at the table, then you'll have your good days and bad. My quarter says more bad than good. But, I wish you success.

    Get in, get paid, get out. Win today. Play tomorrow. SCORE will help decide your best comparisons. But it's not so much what tags you like as it is what is left after everything else is thrown out. Yes, keep it simple. But not so simple you sacrifice your money when you could simply duck.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    With this said, I've learned from BJTF, but lately it appears to have become more of a name calling and insult site. Their members (some call them minions) like to dish it out, but they're a very senstive group and not very good at taking it. If you hit them too hard, they will take their ball and go home, not wanting to play anymore...
    Show me a blackjack site where free speech is allowed? BJTF is only a blackjack sight!

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Never mind the little guy behind the curtain with nearly 300 brief posts of non sense and no meaning. There are guys like him everywhere. Afraid of their own shadow. So they lurk around on a forum with brief smart ass comments. What a wasted individual!
    Last edited by Moses; 02-04-2019 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.

    What percentage is straight up? Do you set a limit on number of other players at the table?

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I looked at going to a higher level count and spent time trying to learn Hi Opt II. But after I bought Norm's products, did some sims and understood the game better, I realized I was spending a lot of entergy (brain power) for very little gain. This game isn't as complicated as some make it out to be. All you need to know is when there are more high cards left in the deck (which is what Hilo does) and you'll know you have an advantage, which means you should bet more. I get it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. The more complicated part is getting a big bank roll and being able to financially and mentally handle the negative swings, which are inenvitable..
    Interesting comments. I'm sorry Bob. But in a straight up game of 12 rounds, Hi Lo is not going to offer enough prime bet opportunities. IF you believe in SCORE, which I do, and you have ran several card tag sim variations, as I have, and if you've played as many hands as I have, then you will see there is little correlation between SCORE and BC,PE. It's going to take more than a 51% 49% win/loss ratio at higher TC and 1 to 8 spread in order to come out. Thus I see high value on the dealers side of the table. Now, if you love to play and enjoy the others at the table, then you'll have your good days and bad. My quarter says more bad than good. But, I wish you success.

    Get in, get paid, get out. Win today. Play tomorrow. SCORE will help decide your best comparisons. But it's not so much what tags you like as it is what is left after everything else is thrown out. Yes, keep it simple. But not so simple you sacrifice your money when you could simply duck.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    With this said, I've learned from BJTF, but lately it appears to have become more of a name calling and insult site. Their members (some call them minions) like to dish it out, but they're a very senstive group and not very good at taking it. If you hit them too hard, they will take their ball and go home, not wanting to play anymore...
    Show me a blackjack site where free speech is allowed? BJTF is only a blackjack sight!

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Never mind the little guy behind the curtain with nearly 300 brief posts of non sense and no meaning. There are guys like him everywhere. Afraid of their own shadow. So they lurk around on a forum with brief smart ass comments. What a wasted individual!
    Could be worse...I could be the little guy with 800+ posts of non sense and no meaning LOL...btw, non sense is one word-Nonsense....but I dumbed it down for you

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.

    What percentage is straight up? Do you set a limit on number of other players at the table?

    Interesting comments. I'm sorry Bob. But in a straight up game of 12 rounds, Hi Lo is not going to offer enough prime bet opportunities. IF you believe in SCORE, which I do, and you have ran several card tag sim variations, as I have, and if you've played as many hands as I have, then you will see there is little correlation between SCORE and BC,PE. It's going to take more than a 51% 49% win/loss ratio at higher TC and 1 to 8 spread in order to come out. Thus I see high value on the dealers side of the table. Now, if you love to play and enjoy the others at the table, then you'll have your good days and bad. My quarter says more bad than good. But, I wish you success.

    Get in, get paid, get out. Win today. Play tomorrow. SCORE will help decide your best comparisons. But it's not so much what tags you like as it is what is left after everything else is thrown out. Yes, keep it simple. But not so simple you sacrifice your money when you could simply duck.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    With this said, I've learned from BJTF, but lately it appears to have become more of a name calling and insult site. Their members (some call them minions) like to dish it out, but they're a very senstive group and not very good at taking it. If you hit them too hard, they will take their ball and go home, not wanting to play anymore...
    Show me a blackjack site where free speech is allowed? BJTF is only a blackjack sight!

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Never mind the little guy behind the curtain with nearly 300 brief posts of non sense and no meaning. There are guys like him everywhere. Afraid of their own shadow. So they lurk around on a forum with brief smart ass comments. What a wasted individual!
    Could be worse...I could be the little guy with 800+ posts of non sense and no meaning LOL...btw, non sense is one word-Nonsense....but I dumbed it down for you
    Your lack of ability to understand makes you the idiot. Spelling errors. A big thing at BJFT.. Have you ever plsyed a hand of blackjack? I mean when it is not on your pecker. But I can see I will have to deal with Flash, 21forme, The Refinery nerd types again. O well
    So be it.

    Dan.. this is a level playing field. No? Bring it on.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.

    What percentage is straight up? Do you set a limit on number of other players at the table?

    Interesting comments. I'm sorry Bob. But in a straight up game of 12 rounds, Hi Lo is not going to offer enough prime bet opportunities. IF you believe in SCORE, which I do, and you have ran several card tag sim variations, as I have, and if you've played as many hands as I have, then you will see there is little correlation between SCORE and BC,PE. It's going to take more than a 51% 49% win/loss ratio at higher TC and 1 to 8 spread in order to come out. Thus I see high value on the dealers side of the table. Now, if you love to play and enjoy the others at the table, then you'll have your good days and bad. My quarter says more bad than good. But, I wish you success.

    Get in, get paid, get out. Win today. Play tomorrow. SCORE will help decide your best comparisons. But it's not so much what tags you like as it is what is left after everything else is thrown out. Yes, keep it simple. But not so simple you sacrifice your money when you could simply duck.

    Show me a blackjack site where free speech is allowed? BJTF is only a blackjack sight!

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    About name calling and insults, I must admit I like a good putdown, even if it's directed at me. This is what Moses excells at. He could write a book on this and it'd be a best selling. I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Never mind the little guy behind the curtain with nearly 300 brief posts of non sense and no meaning. There are guys like him everywhere. Afraid of their own shadow. So they lurk around on a forum with brief smart ass comments. What a wasted individual!
    Could be worse...I could be the little guy with 800+ posts of non sense and no meaning LOL...btw, non sense is one word-Nonsense....but I dumbed it down for you
    Your lack of ability to understand makes you the idiot. Spelling errors. A big thing at BJFT.. Have you ever plsyed a hand of blackjack? I mean when it is not on your pecker. But I can see I will have to deal with Flash, 21forme, The Refinery nerd types again. O well
    So be it.

    Dan.. this is a level playing field. No? Bring it on.
    Take a pill clown before you have an aneurysm

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.
    The logice is quite simple. Double is closer in the math to six and eight deck than it is to Single. If Hilo works for shoes (six and eight) then it should work for DD. Yes, you can get more bang with Hi Opt II or any higher level counting system for DD, but that's also true for shoe games.

    Have you simmed DD and six decks with HiLo and Hi Opt II? I doubt if there is that big of difference between the two. The way you'll make more money is with a bigger spread...not trying to learn a harder system. That's my main point.

    HiLo will also get the money with single, but I get that PE is more important with single so it makes sense to use a higher level system. But even with single, HiLo is all you need to get the money.

    The bottom line is HiLo is all you should need for DD.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Single, Double Deck. Double the cards. Double the work, Double the fun. Half the profits. Sorry Bob. I don't see the logic.
    The logice is quite simple. Double is closer in the math to six and eight deck than it is to Single. If Hilo works for shoes (six and eight) then it should work for DD. Yes, you can get more bang with Hi Opt II or any higher level counting system for DD, but that's also true for shoe games..
    Okay. If you say so.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Have you simmed DD and six decks with HiLo and Hi Opt II? I doubt if there is that big of difference between the two. The way you'll make more money is with a bigger spread...not trying to learn a harder system. That's my main point.
    Good point. Yes. I have simmed both.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    HiLo will also get the money with single, but I get that PE is more important with single so it makes sense to use a higher level system. But even with single, HiLo is all you need to get the money..
    PE isn't as crucial in today's game.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    The bottom line is HiLo is all you should need for DD.
    If you ever need a place to play with the rules and pen I've read about. I will be happy to oblige and be the house.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I think there are a lot of people like me out there that still like HS locker room humor, especially in the current PC culture we live in. You have to come to forums these days to remember what it was like in the good ol' days when someone could throw out a good insult at their colleague without being sent to Human Resources and getting written up. Lol
    Great post Bob - that's one of the things I really like about the forums too.

  15. #15
    Moses, can you post your sim results? I’m interested in what you’re getting. I have simmed DD using Hilo with all the games I play and some only have 50% pen, and I still get a decent SCORE. Most are in the 60 to 70% pen range, so I don’t play 50% pen DD that often. Obviously, it also depends on your spread. But with a 1 to 8 spread, I’m always getting a decent SCORE using Hilo for all the DD games I play.

    As far as the math saying DD is closer to six decks than to one deck, that is what I’ve read in several bj books. Look it up; you should be able to find this on the internet too. Obviously, the less decks the better for a player. But the big difference is going from one to two decks. After that the advantage for the house doesn’t change that much going to more and more decks.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, can you post your sim results? I’m interested in what you’re getting. I have simmed DD using Hilo with all the games I play and some only have 50% pen, and I still get a decent SCORE. Most are in the 60 to 70% pen range, so I don’t play 50% pen DD that often. Obviously, it also depends on your spread. But with a 1 to 8 spread, I’m always getting a decent SCORE using Hilo for all the DD games I play..
    SCORE is great for comparing counts. IMO it is not a good idea to sim and then just go play based on the sim results. I look at a Sim and see it as listening to Don S. The SCORE can come to be very favorable and similar with various tags assigned. For example, Don S says giving the Ace a -1.5 or more than 10 of -1 is a huge no-no.. However, on a single deck straight up sim the SCORE is one of the best. But for actual play? It sucks.

    By the same token you don't want a SCORE that sucks either. So great SCORE, easy count, and table success is the goal. I play thousands of hands on Verite EXACTLY the way I play in a casino.

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    As far as the math saying DD is closer to six decks than to one deck, that is what I’ve read in several bj books. Look it up; you should be able to find this on the internet too. Obviously, the less decks the better for a player. But the big difference is going from one to two decks. After that the advantage for the house doesn’t change that much going to more and more decks.
    I don't know where some of these books get their math. 1 deck to 2 decks is twice as many cards. 2 decks to 6 decks is 3 times as many cards. 2 decks to 8 decks is 4 times as many cards.

    Now for an Ace side count? I can easily keep it on my fingers without anyone knowing on 1 or 2 decks. But in 6 decks, you will need to assign a number or letter to it.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, can you post your sim results? I’m interested in what you’re getting.
    I no longer have my sim results. It was an elimination project of more sims than I can remember. I ran a sim yesterday on Hi Opt II for 6 decks. Give me the rules you play and I will be happy to run a sim supply my results if I figure out how to do this snip it thing again. Don't worry I won't cherry pick. I have no skin in the game. But wouldn't even if I did.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, can you post your sim results? I’m interested in what you’re getting.
    I no longer have my sim results. It was an elimination project of more sims than I can remember. I ran a sim yesterday on Hi Opt II for 6 decks. Give me the rules you play and I will be happy to run a sim supply my results if I figure out how to do this snip it thing again. Don't worry I won't cherry pick. I have no skin in the game. But wouldn't even if I did.
    Okay Moses, here's the game and rules. DD with 60% pen and DAS, H17, double any two cards, split all pairs up to three times (four hands), and no surrender, with a 1 - 8 bet spread. With this game, how big of a difference is there between Hilo and Hi Opt II? While I know Hi Opt II will perform better, I'm sure Hilo will also give the player a winning game.

    As far as the house percentage advantage for bj with various decks, I found this data in one of my blackjack books. The rules are like the ones above:

    Single Deck: No house advantage
    Double Deck: +0.35%
    Four Deck: +0.52%
    Six Deck: +0.58%
    Eight Deck: +0.61%

    As you can see, there is a much bigger jump in house advantage between one to two decks, then between two to six decks. I've read in a couple bj books that single deck is a very different game than DD, and DD is more similar to six decks than single. This is why you'll still see DD games around, and not much single. And when you see single it's usually 6:5 or the house takes away a lot of doubles (for example, only double on 10 and 11) and you usually can't double after split.

    Thanks for taking the time to run your sims or any other help you can give me with DD. This is the game I play the most.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Okay Moses, here's the game and rules. DD with 60% pen and DAS, H17, double any two cards, split all pairs up to three times (four hands), and no surrender, with a 1 - 8 bet spread. With this game, how big of a difference is there between Hilo and Hi Opt II? While I know Hi Opt II will perform better, I'm sure Hilo will also give the player a winning game.
    .
    Questions: I assume Sweet 16 and Fab 4? What is your large bet frequency of bet 1 to 8? OR what intervals do you break it down?

    Bet frequency is a huge barometer when comparing counts.
    Last edited by Moses; 02-04-2019 at 09:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Okay Moses, here's the game and rules. DD with 60% pen and DAS, H17, double any two cards, split all pairs up to three times (four hands), and no surrender, with a 1 - 8 bet spread. With this game, how big of a difference is there between Hilo and Hi Opt II? While I know Hi Opt II will perform better, I'm sure Hilo will also give the player a winning game.
    .
    Questions: I assume Sweet 16 and Fab 4? What is your large bet frequency of bet 1 to 8? OR what intervals do you break it down?

    Bet frequency is a huge barometer when comparing counts.
    Yes, sweet 16. No need to use Fab 4 since there isn’t any surrender in my area. As far as bet frequency, I’d make max bet (8) at TC +5. The range would go from 1 to 8 ramping up to the max bet. Use your discretion and common ramps and rules where I haven’t given more presice info. Thanks!

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