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Thread: APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

  1. #121
    Question for Bob21.

    I don't read BJTF regularly anymore, so I want to see if my recollection of this is correct.

    During numerous discussions involving AP's vs the casino industry, you ALWAYS came down in support of the industry. So much so that a number of members suspected and suggested you were a casino employee or otherwise associated with the casino industry. Is that correct?

    And to be clear, I am not asking if you are in some way associated with the casino industry. I am asking if my recollection that others thought you were is accurate?

  2. #122
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    When I was a young man, I taped something north of 35k to my body because no banks were going to be open.

    Second, as another example, I often carried 30K-40K in cash,

    None of this had anything to do with paper trails. The money taped to me came right out of my local bank. When I came back, it went right back into my local bank.
    I went to my bank with a withdrawal slip filled out to withdraw 40K in cash. The bank teller looked at me with a horrified look and went to one of the offices to talk to the manager. The manager came out and asked me to step in the office.

    I sat down and he asked me what do I need it for? I told him I don't believe I have to answer that. (The money was for a down payment on equipment that wouldn’t begin manufacturing without it. No need to waste days with check clearing in those days.) He then said he would have to prepare the funds and asked if I would come back at noon.

    I went back at noon and I had to go back in his office while in closed the door. He then puts the cash on the desk and asked me to count it. Of course, it was all there, and after signing a couple of documents I was on my way.

    The point is I was treated like a criminal trying to rob their bank. It was a weird experience. This was in the late 90’s. Afterwards I transferred everything to a new bank.

    Reditz says when he was a young man, he always grabbed 30 / 40K cash from his bank. You had no problems moving that type of cash back and forth in the old days when those amounts were considered extremely large. You didn’t have to sign any paperwork on all those cash transactions?

    Reminds me of you moving 6 digits bets and winnings to and from offshore casinos where banking transfers from USA to third world country casinos is illegal.

    For the record I always wired money to the cage of where I was staying.

    Something stinks in Denmark.
    Last edited by blackhole; 03-12-2019 at 02:03 PM. Reason: add text

  3. #123
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I haven't used a bank in over 10 year. I never will again either. Not using a bank doesn't make one a crook.
    LOL ... Because you don't have enough money to put in one. There is a minimum amount required to open an account.

  4. #124
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I haven't used a bank in over 10 year. I never will again either. Not using a bank doesn't make one a crook.
    LOL ... Because you don't have enough money to put in one. There is a minimum amount required to open an account.
    I have more cash in my pocket right now then yours and Alan's net worth combined!

  5. #125
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Question for Bob21.

    I don't read BJTF regularly anymore, so I want to see if my recollection of this is correct.

    During numerous discussions involving AP's vs the casino industry, you ALWAYS came down in support of the industry. So much so that a number of members suspected and suggested you were a casino employee or otherwise associated with the casino industry. Is that correct?

    And to be clear, I am not asking if you are in some way associated with the casino industry. I am asking if my recollection that others thought you were is accurate?
    KewlJ, you are correct. I am dbs over there, and many (moslty Three and Freightman) thought I was a casino employee. I would have been dbs over here but I changed my handle because I wanted to ask Moses a question about his count and I didn’t want him to start calling me names. He didn’t care for over on BJTF, and he also regularly called out dbs on his island. I never took it personally.

    What I said on BJTF is correct. I many times said I was a red chipper, recreational, hobby counter who does this occasional on weekends. Some call this being a “weekend warrior”. However, there is not much “warrior” involved in what I’m doing. I mostly play rated and take advantage of all the comps. I have been backed off and 86d a couple times, but I still defend casinos.

    The reason that crowd doesn’t like me is because I respect casinos and believe for the most part they’re doing things right. So yes, I defend them. We’re the parasite adding no value. They are the ones adding value by providing a gaming experience people enjoy. This always upsets APs when I call us parasites, but I think that’s a good description of what we do.

    I have never worked for a casino or had any interaction with them other then playing there, and intereacting with the casino staff. I have dated a couple dealers and a waitresses though, but that was a while ago. Btw, caisnos do know how to hire good looking women so I give them high marks for that.

    Just because I defend casinos doesn’t mean I work for them. Some of the stupid stuff APs say about casinos makes no sense. One of my first posts on BJTF I called that group a cult since they all think the same way about casinos. This obviously didn’t gain me any friends. Heck, even Don S has called me names over there. He didn’t like it when I said something negative about every card counters hero, Thorp.

    Anyway, I am somewhat sarcastic and I can tell most don’t get my humor but that’s okay. This is one area APs need to work on...developing a sense of humor. They take life much too seriously. If I ever get my bootcamp off the ground, I’ll have a short course on this. As you know, APs like to spend a lot of money on bootcamps. My long term plan is to capitalize on this growing market...Bootcamps for APs.

    Hope this helps.

  6. #126
    LOL @ thinking you can just go into the bank and deposit $100k+ without them swarming you with questions and allegations of all sorts.

    As the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, "I may have been born yesterday, but I wasn't born today."
    #FreeTyde

  7. #127
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    LOL @ thinking you can just go into the bank and deposit $100k+ without them swarming you with questions and allegations of all sorts.

    As the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, "I may have been born yesterday, but I wasn't born today."
    I once deposited $50,000 cash. It was at a Bank of America near Caesars in Vegas. I'll tell you exactly what happened RS.

    First the teller gave me a CTR form to fill out. It asked for the name of my business. I immediately said this money wasn't from my business... it was gambling winnings. The bank didn't care.

    I asked for a manager and I explained the issue. I said when the IRS sees this they are going to apply it to my business which could make me liable for business income when in reality it was gambling winnings.

    I wanted it listed as gambling winnings but the manager said there was no way to indicate that. The form only asked for my occupation and not the source of the money.

    Of course I wanted it reported as gambling winnings so I could have the CTR for offsetting it. But... no dice (pun intended).

    I tell that story because I don't think any of you self proclaimed APs ever made a $50k deposit... except in your imaginery AP circle jerk forum posts.

  8. #128
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    You can't fool this son of a mob lawyer. I know more tricks than you'll ever imagine. LOL
    Son of a mob lawyer.

    Mob lawyers are generally among the most dishonest of the dishonest. Shyster would be a common term.

    The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
    Yes kewlj. My father was a mob lawyer. Just in case you misread that I'll say it again. My father was a mob lawyer.

  9. #129
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I haven't used a bank in over 10 year. I never will again either. Not using a bank doesn't make one a crook.
    LOL ... Because you don't have enough money to put in one. There is a minimum amount required to open an account.
    I have more cash in my pocket right now then yours and Alan's net worth combined!
    Jbjb, are you really 15 years old?

  10. #130
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Put all the side arguments aside and return to the original article in Patch.

    What did the players do wrong? Well, they traveled with large amounts of cash. Why would they do that? Probably to hide their winnings from the IRS... but that's NOT an issue here.

    So the question is what did they do to warrant any other problem or lawsuit or investigatoon? I don't think they did anything wrong.

    They didn't alter the payouts on the machine, so why should they be prosecuted?

    The casino is required to file CTRs and not the players. And, by the way, even with $3,000 payouts there is still an obligation on CASINOS to monitor cash transactions.

    If the casino tipped off police to stop the vehicle and harass the driver that is indeed wrong but I'm not exactly sure what crime that is but I'm sure it's a violation of something.

    The first lawsuit was thrown out, according to the article, on a question of JURISDICTION and had nothing to do with the merits of the lawsuit.

    That's where it all stands as I see it.
    Alan, a good reasoned reply, but you're only addressing one aspect of what they were charged with. They were also charged for “manipulating keno machines”. I have no idea what that means but it’s hard for me to believe the prosecutors didn’t have some evidence they were doing something illegal.

    A casino or prosecutor is not going to charge someone for just winning a lot of money. That makes no sense.
    Did they manipulate the machines? Did they change the paytables?

    The only thing I read is that they played machines with better paytables. I saw nothing that they tampered with the devices.
    Casino management was probably trying to call the fact that the players were tayloring their bets so as to not get any W2-G handpays a manipulation.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  11. #131
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Clearly they were avoiding a check and a paper trail in order to hide their winnings from taxes... but I don't see anything that says they broke any other gaming law.
    Not to avoid taxes. To avoid scrutiny by slot operations.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  12. #132
    I'll go even further with this, then add a P.S. for Alan. Now that sports betting is ubiquitous across the country, there is even more reason to be large and liquid. Eventually, either there are going to be enormous numbers disparities, potentially in adjoining states, or there are going to be regional lines. The sports books outside of Nevada, even if they require an account number with which to make wagers, are never in my lifetime going to catch up to a simple family unit each organizing his/her own accounts and going liquid when necessary to juggle money across accounts. There's nothing illegal about it. And this doesn't refer to Nevada, where accounts are not necessary

    As far as LV is concerned, once California legalizes sports wagering, you are going to see massive liquidity crossing state borders. Again, nothing illegal about it. It's your (our) money.

    Welcome to the brave new world.


    P.S. Glad you're the son of a mob lawyer, Alan. It explains a little of the arrogance. I can probably do you one better, but it's gonna have to wait until one of our death beds. If I'm going first, I'll fill you in.

  13. #133
    Bob21, have you ever heard the phrase "This is Nevada!!" That's what you used to hear when you complained about being wronged by a casino. What it means is you may have civil rights in other states but not in Nevada. The cops, lawyers and judges were all pawns of the casino industry. No one could get judgements against the casinos. People got backroomed and beat up....This is Nevada!! Gamblers got their money stolen by casino personnel....This is Nevada!! Try to get a lawyer to sue for you he'd tell you....This is Nevada!!! Lawyer Robert Nersesian slowly changed things. He was the only one that started taking the cases. Until he started winning cases the casino industry ran wild with abusing gamblers.
    Last edited by mickeycrimm; 03-12-2019 at 03:48 PM.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  14. #134
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Put all the side arguments aside and return to the original article in Patch.

    What did the players do wrong? Well, they traveled with large amounts of cash. Why would they do that? Probably to hide their winnings from the IRS... but that's NOT an issue here.

    So the question is what did they do to warrant any other problem or lawsuit or investigatoon? I don't think they did anything wrong.

    They didn't alter the payouts on the machine, so why should they be prosecuted?

    The casino is required to file CTRs and not the players. And, by the way, even with $3,000 payouts there is still an obligation on CASINOS to monitor cash transactions.

    If the casino tipped off police to stop the vehicle and harass the driver that is indeed wrong but I'm not exactly sure what crime that is but I'm sure it's a violation of something.

    The first lawsuit was thrown out, according to the article, on a question of JURISDICTION and had nothing to do with the merits of the lawsuit.

    That's where it all stands as I see it.
    Alan, a good reasoned reply, but you're only addressing one aspect of what they were charged with. They were also charged for “manipulating keno machines”. I have no idea what that means but it’s hard for me to believe the prosecutors didn’t have some evidence they were doing something illegal.

    A casino or prosecutor is not going to charge someone for just winning a lot of money. That makes no sense.
    Did they manipulate the machines? Did they change the paytables?

    The only thing I read is that they played machines with better paytables. I saw nothing that they tampered with the devices.
    Alan, I’ve already responded to this in another post. It does look like they changed the pay tables. They somehow knew what denomination to bet to trigger the machines to pay out 5 times more than it was supposed to. The bug was written into the program by someone at the gaming company. The question is how did these people know the denomination to bet to get the machines to pay out incorrectly. And they also knew which machines had this bug. They found them in Joliet, Il and Tunica, MS at certain casinos...I think it was at MGM properties.

    Unless you knew what demonation to play, these machines would not pay out an incorrect pay schedule. It could be some gambler hit on this combination by accident and informed others about it. The articles I’ve read have not said what this denomination is. The gaming company is the one who thought they most have got this information from an inside source. If they did, this is obviously cheating.

    I’ve now read quite a few articles on this and can see why the casinos thought they were cheating. I can also see why they thought they’d get away with it.

    It’s true the gaming company and casino weren’t able to connect these five people to an inside source, and I’m sure they tried hard.

    The gaming company ended up paying MGM 2 million dollars for this error. I’m sure the gaming company is going through internal procedures to see how a bug like this got through their system.

    All in all, an interesting case. The more I read about it, the more I think the gamblers might be innocent. But I can see why the gaming and caisnos thought they were guilty of illegal activity, if that makes any sense.

  15. #135
    Bob21 aka bjo32 aka dbs aka bobses just goes around from gambling site to gambling site playing trolly games. Is it a coincidence he’s mostly agreeing with the COD and Moses

  16. #136
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I tell that story because I don't think any of you self proclaimed APs ever made a $50k deposit... except in your imaginery AP circle jerk forum posts.
    Funny how this comment by Alan above is so obvious to people who really have been around the block.

  17. #137
    Originally Posted by mcap View Post
    Bob21 aka bjo32 aka dbs aka bobses just goes around from gambling site to gambling site playing trolly games. Is it a coincidence he’s mostly agreeing with the COD and Moses
    This is what I’m taking about. APs see anybody that disagrees with their world view as being a troll. APs are kind of like a cult. They want everybody to think the same way.

  18. #138
    Bob21, is this correct, you are also bjo32 at bjinfo?

    I'll say this. Most AP's don't do this. Most AP's are known by a single handle or slight variation of a single handle on multiple forum. Having so many different handles seems like you are hiding something.

  19. #139
    Alan, you are coming across as very angry today. Angrier that usual. What's up with that? Did Miss Isreal dump you?

  20. #140
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I tell that story because I don't think any of you self proclaimed APs ever made a $50k deposit... except in your imaginery AP circle jerk forum posts.
    Funny how this comment by Alan above is so obvious to people who really have been around the block.
    Yeah but we all believe that some dipshit that can barely spell withdraws 40K at a time, lol, what a F’n idiot

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