APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

[Bob21]

Bob21, is this correct, you are also bjo32 at bjinfo?

I'll say this. Most AP's don't do this. Most AP's are known by a single handle or slight variation of a single handle on multiple forum. Having so many different handles seems like you are hiding something.

I agree. If I had to do it over again, I’d use the same one. I did have two that were close to the same, Bob21 here and Bob32 on bj21. And the bjo32 on blackjackinfo is the same one I used while I was on BJA.

There was a reason for each one, which I know isn’t a great one. When I made my handle on BJTF, I just typed in a bunch of letters and numbers to get access to some information. I used bjo32 in blackjackinfo because it was my handle on BJA.

When I signed on here, I debated if I should go with bjo32 or my handle on bj21, which I thought was Bob21, but it turns out was Bob32. I hadn’t logged onto bj21 in a while. If I’d had remembered it was Bib32, I’d have gone with Bob32.

So yeah, I’ve made a mess of things, but it isn’t because I’m hiding anything. You got to remember I act the same way on all sites. I’ve never disagreed with anybody when they say, hey, aren’t you such and such from over ther. I say sure, great catch. I always like to build APs up since some have low self esteem.

What people should look at is the content of the post. I know this doesn’t carry much weight with APs though. They care more about who is posting than the content of the post itself. I guess most APs missed the Martin Lurther King speech about looking at content rather than who the person is.

If I could go somewhere and consolidate my handles, I’d do that. But I don’t think there is a way to do that now so it’s a situation I’ll have to live with. Oh, the trials of life. Lol

I actually think this is a good thing for the AP community. It can show everybody how smart there are by figuring out the connection between my different handles. APs should be thanking me for giving them this riddle. I’m sure most won’t though.

Btw, the connection wasn’t that hard. It was always some letters, followed by some numbers. I do this because this is how I come up with passwords. I looked at my handle initially as a password to logon to these sites. Now I see it means much more. Sorry if I offended anybody in the AP community. That was not my intent.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, a good reasoned reply, but you're only addressing one aspect of what they were charged with. They were also charged for “manipulating keno machines”. I have no idea what that means but it’s hard for me to believe the prosecutors didn’t have some evidence they were doing something illegal.

A casino or prosecutor is not going to charge someone for just winning a lot of money. That makes no sense.

Did they manipulate the machines? Did they change the paytables?

The only thing I read is that they played machines with better paytables. I saw nothing that they tampered with the devices.

Casino management was probably trying to call the fact that the players were tayloring their bets so as to not get any W2-G handpays a manipulation.

Is that a crime? Is it a crime to limit your wins? I don't think so.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, you are coming across as very angry today. Angrier that usual. What's up with that? Did Miss Isreal dump you?

No. We're still together. Thanks.

[Alan Mendelson]

Bob 21 if they changed the paytables or conspired with someone who did change the paytables with intent, then yes that would be a crime. But that info is not in the Patch article and as of now you haven't posted a link to the source of that info.

[Bob21]

Bob 21 if they changed the paytables or conspired with someone who did change the paytables with intent, then yes that would be a crime. But that info is not in the Patch article and as of now you haven't posted a link to the source of that info.

Alan, I agree with you. I just said that in my prior post. Did you read it? The gaming company couldn’t connect one of their coders to these gamblers. I just said they could be innocent. But they could also be guilt and they did a real good job of covering their tracks. This is something we’ll never know. What they did looks very suspicious, but we don’t convict based on suspicion.

Btw, I’m not going to waste too much more time on this. I’ve done enough research to satisfy my own curiosity into this case. If you (or anybody) else is interested, do your own research. There are a lot more articles about this case on the internet. The patch article isn’t the only one.

[MaxPen]

Question for Bob21.

I don't read BJTF regularly anymore, so I want to see if my recollection of this is correct.

During numerous discussions involving AP's vs the casino industry, you ALWAYS came down in support of the industry. So much so that a number of members suspected and suggested you were a casino employee or otherwise associated with the casino industry. Is that correct?

And to be clear, I am not asking if you are in some way associated with the casino industry. I am asking if my recollection that others thought you were is accurate?

KewlJ, you are correct. I am dbs over there, and many (moslty Three and Freightman) thought I was a casino employee. I would have been dbs over here but I changed my handle because I wanted to ask Moses a question about his count and I didn’t want him to start calling me names. He didn’t care for over on BJTF, and he also regularly called out dbs on his island. I never took it personally.

What I said on BJTF is correct. I many times said I was a red chipper, recreational, hobby counter who does this occasional on weekends. Some call this being a “weekend warrior”. However, there is not much “warrior” involved in what I’m doing. I mostly play rated and take advantage of all the comps. I have been backed off and 86d a couple times, but I still defend casinos.

The reason that crowd doesn’t like me is because I respect casinos and believe for the most part they’re doing things right. So yes, I defend them. We’re the parasite adding no value. They are the ones adding value by providing a gaming experience people enjoy. This always upsets APs when I call us parasites, but I think that’s a good description of what we do.

I have never worked for a casino or had any interaction with them other then playing there, and intereacting with the casino staff. I have dated a couple dealers and a waitresses though, but that was a while ago. Btw, caisnos do know how to hire good looking women so I give them high marks for that.

Just because I defend casinos doesn’t mean I work for them. Some of the stupid stuff APs say about casinos makes no sense. One of my first posts on BJTF I called that group a cult since they all think the same way about casinos. This obviously didn’t gain me any friends. Heck, even Don S has called me names over there. He didn’t like it when I said something negative about every card counters hero, Thorp.

Anyway, I am somewhat sarcastic and I can tell most don’t get my humor but that’s okay. This is one area APs need to work on...developing a sense of humor. They take life much too seriously. If I ever get my bootcamp off the ground, I’ll have a short course on this. As you know, APs like to spend a lot of money on bootcamps. My long term plan is to capitalize on this growing market...Bootcamps for APs.

Hope this helps.

At least you finally admitted it. You came over here using an alias to slob on someone's knob hoping for some answers. Pathetic.

[Bob21]

Question for Bob21.

I don't read BJTF regularly anymore, so I want to see if my recollection of this is correct.

During numerous discussions involving AP's vs the casino industry, you ALWAYS came down in support of the industry. So much so that a number of members suspected and suggested you were a casino employee or otherwise associated with the casino industry. Is that correct?

And to be clear, I am not asking if you are in some way associated with the casino industry. I am asking if my recollection that others thought you were is accurate?

KewlJ, you are correct. I am dbs over there, and many (moslty Three and Freightman) thought I was a casino employee. I would have been dbs over here but I changed my handle because I wanted to ask Moses a question about his count and I didn’t want him to start calling me names. He didn’t care for over on BJTF, and he also regularly called out dbs on his island. I never took it personally.

What I said on BJTF is correct. I many times said I was a red chipper, recreational, hobby counter who does this occasional on weekends. Some call this being a “weekend warrior”. However, there is not much “warrior” involved in what I’m doing. I mostly play rated and take advantage of all the comps. I have been backed off and 86d a couple times, but I still defend casinos.

The reason that crowd doesn’t like me is because I respect casinos and believe for the most part they’re doing things right. So yes, I defend them. We’re the parasite adding no value. They are the ones adding value by providing a gaming experience people enjoy. This always upsets APs when I call us parasites, but I think that’s a good description of what we do.

I have never worked for a casino or had any interaction with them other then playing there, and intereacting with the casino staff. I have dated a couple dealers and a waitresses though, but that was a while ago. Btw, caisnos do know how to hire good looking women so I give them high marks for that.

Just because I defend casinos doesn’t mean I work for them. Some of the stupid stuff APs say about casinos makes no sense. One of my first posts on BJTF I called that group a cult since they all think the same way about casinos. This obviously didn’t gain me any friends. Heck, even Don S has called me names over there. He didn’t like it when I said something negative about every card counters hero, Thorp.

Anyway, I am somewhat sarcastic and I can tell most don’t get my humor but that’s okay. This is one area APs need to work on...developing a sense of humor. They take life much too seriously. If I ever get my bootcamp off the ground, I’ll have a short course on this. As you know, APs like to spend a lot of money on bootcamps. My long term plan is to capitalize on this growing market...Bootcamps for APs.

Hope this helps.

At least you finally admitted it. You came over here using an alias to slob on someone's knob hoping for some answers. Pathetic.

Yep, I feel so much better now. Thank you for allowing me to confess my sins of using a different handle on this site. My conscience feels so much better now.

I had no idea this was such a big sin in the AP community. I’m still getting used to all the rules APs live by. Btw, all I do is some weekend low level card counting. I hardly see myself as full fedlged AP like the giants on this site.

[AxelWolf]

I just read some more articles about this case from 2014. I now understand it better. What these 5 gamblers did could not have been spotted by any standard AP techniques. There was a bug in the program that had these keno machines paying out 5 times more than it was supposed to, but only if you put the “right denominations” into the machine. It’s hard to believe they figured out the “right denomination” by chance.

This is why the gaming company, WMS, said these 5 won this money by “theft” and illegal activity. They obviously couldn’t prove their case, but both WMS and the casino strongly believe this is an “inside job”, meaning the person that wrote “the bug” in the code was somehow connected to these 5 gamblers.

What story makes most sense? That five gamblers from Vegas happen to drive all the way to Illinois and by chance figured out “the right denomination” to put in these machines to trigger 5 times the payout, or they got an “inside tip”?

Please link me to this article, I don't think you understand the facts or how this bug worked and you are misinterpreting certain things. I was told how it worked soon after it happen(I was keeping my eyes open for the machines in NV). I don't remember all the details, however, I don't recall it having to do with certain bill denominations, but rather certain machine denominations. And this kind of glitch/bug has been around for a while in more than one instance. So, it would stand to reason certain people would be looking for and testing various sequences and combinations on newly installed games. I don't know much about software programming and coding. I would think that other coders/programmers have an idea what kind of mistakes are made and what to look for when they want to find a vulnerability.

From my understanding the Double up bug from way back when was found yet again within the last few years here in Nevada in a popular gaming area.

AxelWolf, I can't find the article I just read, and I don't know how to find it on my phone. I'm sure there is a way. The article clearly said it was the "right" demoninations that triggered the 5 times payout. I did find this quote from a different article, which discussed the lawsuit the players filed against the casino: “While [the players] had ascertained how to increase the amounts paid through the particular denominations they bet."

No one is disputing it was a "particular" amount bet that triggered the bug that gave them the high payout. The question is how did they figure this out?

I'll continue to look for that article and when I find it, I'll post the link. I can't do that at work though since my work computer doesn't allow me to access this site, or any gambling site. I'll have to do it at hone. I can only access this site through my phone.

Just type in some key words, like the gamblers names and Joliet and you'll find a lot of articles that discuss this case from different viewpoints.

Perhaps you didnt want to find it that bad since it seems to dispute what you were trying to get us to believe.

Court House News Letter

"Binning, and later Dorobanov and Jovenich, were all charged with theft for having tampered with the keno machines, but they claim they did nothing illegal and had no way to tamper with the machines’ code.

In fact, the game manufacturer WMS Gaming admitted that the larger payouts resulted from a coding error, and none of its personnel had any contact with the players, according to the complaint.

“While [the players] had ascertained how to increase the amounts paid through the particular denominations they bet(* As I thought, this had nothing to do with bill denominations as you suggested), they did not physically manipulate the machine in any way, did not use prohibited devices, nor did they collude with or receive any inside information about the machines from anyone working at the manufacturer,” the complaint states. “By claiming to the prosecutors, judge, and grand jury that the plaintiffs had stolen the money and manipulated the machines illegally, and by failing to tell the truth, these defendants caused the plaintiffs to be wrongfully arrested and prosecuted.”

WMS Gaming paid Harrah’s parent company Caesars $2 million to settle the casino’s claims against it, but allegedly continued to blame the players for its losses.

The players say Caesars encouraged the game maker to prosecute them “even though Caesars knew that Mr. Binning had done nothing illegal.”

Dorobanov, who is also a world-ranked chess master(*I guess he could very well be a Super Genius) , says that he particularly suffered extreme hardship due to the fact that his wife was pregnant with twins as he awaited trial, and he was banned from entering any casino until a judge dismissed all charges against the gamblers in 2015."

[AxelWolf]

Alan Read this before you keep yapping your trap as to why someone( especially an AP on a big play) may or may not use a bank when AP'ing casinos.

They would be likely to travel with $400k If they were planning to split up the money. No one person is going to want to deposit 400k in their bank account (without proof of funds)and then take it out a day or two later just to split it all up. "I won it gambling" is not going to fly. The bank would expect most people to have a check. And agian, the AP's may not want to risk the authorities seizing their funds based on ignorance of what was actually going on. As you can see they went after them when they clearly hadn't done anything illegal.

https://money.cnn.com/2014/05/07/pf/...count-closing/

Why your bank can break up with you

Your bank has the right to cut you off anytime it wants. But why exactly would it break up with you?
There are the customers who bounce checks, constantly overdraw their accounts, commit fraud or otherwise lose the bank money. Those are the easy ones to get rid of.

But then there are the customers who fall into a gray area.

Banks are urged by federal law enforcement agencies and regulators to close questionable accounts -- or else risk getting hit with penalties. So they often end up shutting accounts even when a customer isn't doing anything explicitly illegal.

If a customer is merely involved in an industry considered high risk or engaged in an unpopular or "unsavory" line of work, a bank may deem it safer to cut off the relationship, according to Robert Rowe, senior counsel at the American Bankers Association, which represents the nation's largest banks.

"[The government] is putting us in a position where we're expected to be the judge, jury and prosecutor," Rowe said.

Related: 5 things you can't buy with a credit card

In guidance to banks, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation lists 30 business categories that have been linked to "high-risk activity," including gun sellers, home-based charities, payday loans, dating services, escort services, fireworks suppliers, cable box de-scramblers, coin dealers, credit card repair services, gaming and gambling websites, and telemarketing companies.

Another category on the list: pornography, which became a hot button issue recently after news reports said that "hundreds" of porn stars suddenly had their bank accounts closed by Chase (though a source close to the matter said Chase doesn't have a specific policy prohibiting porn stars from having bank accounts).

When you open a business account, banks can determine if you are in a "high-risk" industry by running a background check and continuing to monitor the types of transactions that are made once the account is open.

Related: Savings account lotteries - win up to $25,000

The FDIC also recommends that banks look at the volume and nature of consumer complaints filed on websites like the Better Business Bureau. A company that requests a large number of returns or charge backs (which often occur when a customer is dissatisfied with a purchase), should also raise red flags, according to the FDIC.

Other reasons for heightened suspicion: customers who give unclear descriptions of their businesses when opening accounts, as well as those who make multiple transactions that don't seem to make sense, according to Protiviti, a consulting firm that helps banks prevent money laundering, human trafficking and terrorist financing.

Play Video
Feds clear banks to serve pot businesses
For personal accounts, there's a whole other set of warning signs that banks are looking out for.

Among them: If you have no record of current or past employment but make frequent, large transactions, you don't live or work anywhere near the city or state where you've opened an account, you have many accounts under a single name, you have past convictions on your record, or you provide phone numbers that are disconnected.

Related: BofA unveils account for chronic overdrafters

A sudden surge in account activity, consistently high volumes of transaction activity, multiple round-number transactions like $50,000 or deposits just under $10,000 (since banks must report anything above that amount to law enforcement), constant visits to safe deposit boxes and big purchases of valuable items like precious metals or fine art are some of the other forms of activity that could indicate fraud like money laundering, according to Protiviti.

What it all comes down to is that your bank reserves the right to shut your account at any time, for any reason. And because the institution is held liable if an account ends up being connected to fraud or damaging the reputation of the bank, it is often going to take a "better safe than sorry" approach, said John Ulzheimer, credit expert at CreditSesame.com.

[Spock]

But wait! That can't be true because Boob21 read articles! Lots and lots of articles! If you read those articles you might think differently, (but probably not).

Of course Boob can't supply a SINGLE one of those, but just trust him. He's right, everyone else is wrong.

It looks to me like he's trying to tie the Game King button hustle with the Keno one.

And Boob, so you know, I'm not an AP. I just hate jackasses that believe they know everything. (<----- that would be YOU)

[BoSox]

KewlJ, you are correct. I am dbs over there, and many (moslty Three and Freightman) thought I was a casino employee. I would have been dbs over here but I changed my handle because I wanted to ask Moses a question about his count and I didn’t want him to start calling me names. He didn’t care for over on BJTF, and he also regularly called out dbs on his island. I never took it personally.

What I said on BJTF is correct. I many times said I was a red chipper, recreational, hobby counter who does this occasional on weekends. Some call this being a “weekend warrior”. However, there is not much “warrior” involved in what I’m doing. I mostly play rated and take advantage of all the comps. I have been backed off and 86d a couple times, but I still defend casinos.

The reason that crowd doesn’t like me is because I respect casinos and believe for the most part they’re doing things right. So yes, I defend them. We’re the parasite adding no value. They are the ones adding value by providing a gaming experience people enjoy. This always upsets APs when I call us parasites, but I think that’s a good description of what we do.

I have never worked for a casino or had any interaction with them other then playing there, and intereacting with the casino staff. I have dated a couple dealers and a waitresses though, but that was a while ago. Btw, caisnos do know how to hire good looking women so I give them high marks for that.

Just because I defend casinos doesn’t mean I work for them. Some of the stupid stuff APs say about casinos makes no sense. One of my first posts on BJTF I called that group a cult since they all think the same way about casinos. This obviously didn’t gain me any friends. Heck, even Don S has called me names over there. He didn’t like it when I said something negative about every card counters hero, Thorp.

Anyway, I am somewhat sarcastic and I can tell most don’t get my humor but that’s okay. This is one area APs need to work on...developing a sense of humor. They take life much too seriously. If I ever get my bootcamp off the ground, I’ll have a short course on this. As you know, APs like to spend a lot of money on bootcamps. My long term plan is to capitalize on this growing market...Bootcamps for APs.

Hope this helps.

At least you finally admitted it. You came over here using an alias to slob on someone's knob hoping for some answers. Pathetic.

Yep, I feel so much better now. Thank you for allowing me to confess my sins of using a different handle on this site. My conscience feels so much better now.

I had no idea this was such a big sin in the AP community. I’m still getting used to all the rules APs live by. Btw, all I do is some weekend low level card counting. I hardly see myself as full fedlged AP like the giants on this site.

You know Bob21 you are one underhanded lowlife.

[AxelWolf]

But wait! That can't be true because Boob21 read articles! Lots and lots of articles! If you read those articles you might think differently, (but probably not).

Of course Boob can't supply a SINGLE one of those, but just trust him. He's right, everyone else is wrong.

It looks to me like he's trying to tie the Game King button hustle with the Keno one.

And Boob, so you know, I'm not an AP. I just hate jackasses that believe they know everything. (<----- that would be YOU)

Fist someone was saying(was it Bob?) this must have been an inside job, because people all the way from vegas found it, but no one in Illinois did... and that just wasn't possible since any Joe Blow would have easily found it and exploited it(they said that was commonsense), that was Debunked, so then they said it must have been an inside job since it was not easy to spot, so someone must have told them.


Lots of flip lopping here, I feel like I'm participating in a political thread or one of Singers BS Bluff Bets after hes been outed. LOL

[RS__]

LOL @ thinking you can just go into the bank and deposit $100k+ without them swarming you with questions and allegations of all sorts.

As the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, "I may have been born yesterday, but I wasn't born today."

I once deposited $50,000 cash. It was at a Bank of America near Caesars in Vegas. I'll tell you exactly what happened RS.

First the teller gave me a CTR form to fill out. It asked for the name of my business. I immediately said this money wasn't from my business... it was gambling winnings. The bank didn't care.

I asked for a manager and I explained the issue. I said when the IRS sees this they are going to apply it to my business which could make me liable for business income when in reality it was gambling winnings.

I wanted it listed as gambling winnings but the manager said there was no way to indicate that. The form only asked for my occupation and not the source of the money.

Of course I wanted it reported as gambling winnings so I could have the CTR for offsetting it. But... no dice (pun intended).

I tell that story because I don't think any of you self proclaimed APs ever made a $50k deposit... except in your imaginery AP circle jerk forum posts.

No, I haven’t done a $50k deposit at the bank, I think I made that much clear in my post above...since, ya know, they hassle people for depositing or withdrawing “large” amounts. Chase bank (in particular) is extra sweaty and has cut off a bunch of people for many large deposits and withdrawals.

Here’s an idea, Alan — you’ve been right on a grand total of zero times when different discussions like this come up, so maybe you should stop talking about shit you know nothing about. Thanks.

[blackhole]

After reading that long article Axel posted about “why your bank could break up with you” I must admit I wasn’t aware of any of those reasons.

Guess it was nice to go through life using banks for endless advantages to include investing without having to worry about anything in that article; while smartly and quietly maneuvering with cash.

Hope all you folks are looking forward to the drool about to fall out of the envious empty heads of Keystone, and jpjp.

[Bob21]

But wait! That can't be true because Boob21 read articles! Lots and lots of articles! If you read those articles you might think differently, (but probably not).

Of course Boob can't supply a SINGLE one of those, but just trust him. He's right, everyone else is wrong.

It looks to me like he's trying to tie the Game King button hustle with the Keno one.

And Boob, so you know, I'm not an AP. I just hate jackasses that believe they know everything. (<----- that would be YOU)

Hey, Spock, or should I say Spook. Lol. I’ve noticed that’s kind of an AP thing to do, meaning slightly twist a person’s handle and think that makes you clever. Spock/Spook, you can believe whatever you want to... it doesn’t mater to me. No matter how many articles I post, it won’t prove anything. You think these guys were incencent since that’s the way you’re wired. In your world, the casinos are always in the wrong.

At the very least, I think these five people are unethical since they took advantage of a computer bug. What they did is similar to getting free food out of a vending machine when it’s malfunctioning. An AP would probably think this is an advantage play...I think it’s unethical. This is what makes you and me different.

Regardless of how these five people found this play (either by an inside sources or through blind luck), they knew what they did is take advantage of a bug in the machine’s program. They were making 5 times the payout so they knew something was wrong with the program. Therefore, they tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible.

I’m surprised the judge didn’t make these people pay this money back to the casino, like the judge did in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. But as we all know, each judge is different. Btw, judges have ruled in the favor of the caisbo when a bug happens in a big jackpot payout. I know this gets APs upset too.

To be able to sleep at night, you need to believe what you believe. I don’t want to post an article that might make you doubt your beliefs. I can tell this case is very important to you. I think they are guilty, but I can’t prove it. No article will do that. And at the very least, I think these 5 people have no ethics.

[MaxPen]

Alot depends on your relationship with your bank. I have done large deposits numerous times thruout my life into my personal checking account. I have had the same account for 30+ years with my credit union.
I have also withdrawn and wired large amounts. I usually just have to answer a couple questions with a manager. If wanting an amount over 10k I know to call a few days ahead of time. The largest deposit at one time was 50k.
I know lots of people that have had significant problems though. Also, know some that have had their accounts closed.

[redietz]

But wait! That can't be true because Boob21 read articles! Lots and lots of articles! If you read those articles you might think differently, (but probably not).

Of course Boob can't supply a SINGLE one of those, but just trust him. He's right, everyone else is wrong.

It looks to me like he's trying to tie the Game King button hustle with the Keno one.

And Boob, so you know, I'm not an AP. I just hate jackasses that believe they know everything. (<----- that would be YOU)

Hey, Spock, or should I say Spook. Lol. I’ve noticed that’s kind of an AP thing to do, meaning slightly twist a person’s handle and think that makes you clever. Spock/Spook, you can believe whatever you want to... it doesn’t mater to me. No matter how many articles I post, it won’t prove anything. You think these guys were incencent since that’s the way you’re wired. In your world, the casinos are always in the wrong.

At the very least, I think these five people are unethical since they took advantage of a computer bug. What they did is similar to getting free food out of a vending machine when it’s malfunctioning. An AP would probably think this is an advantage play...I think it’s unethical. This is what makes you and me different.

Regardless of how these five people found this play (either by an inside sources or through blind luck), they knew what they did is take advantage of a bug in the machine’s program. They were making 5 times the payout so they knew something was wrong with the program. Therefore, they tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible.

I’m surprised the judge didn’t make these people pay this money back to the casino, like the judge did in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. But as we all know, each judge is different. Btw, judges have ruled in the favor of the caisbo when a bug happens in a big jackpot payout. I know this gets APs upset too.

To be able to sleep at night, you need to believe what you believe. I don’t want to post an article that might make you doubt your beliefs. I can tell this case is very important to you. I think they are guilty, but I can’t prove it. No article will do that. And at the very least, I think these 5 people have no ethics.

Meanwhile, employing machines that addict individuals playing them would qualify, I take it, as an ethical endeavor. Let us know how you feel about that....

I recommend "Addiction by Design" by Natasha Schull. Great book -- it ties together much of the research of the last 20 years.

[AxelWolf]

LOL @ thinking you can just go into the bank and deposit $100k+ without them swarming you with questions and allegations of all sorts.

As the Ancient Hawaiians used to say, "I may have been born yesterday, but I wasn't born today."

I once deposited $50,000 cash. It was at a Bank of America near Caesars in Vegas. I'll tell you exactly what happened RS.

First the teller gave me a CTR form to fill out. It asked for the name of my business. I immediately said this money wasn't from my business... it was gambling winnings. The bank didn't care.

I asked for a manager and I explained the issue. I said when the IRS sees this they are going to apply it to my business which could make me liable for business income when in reality it was gambling winnings.

I wanted it listed as gambling winnings but the manager said there was no way to indicate that. The form only asked for my occupation and not the source of the money.

Of course I wanted it reported as gambling winnings so I could have the CTR for offsetting it. But... no dice (pun intended).

I tell that story because I don't think any of you self proclaimed APs ever made a $50k deposit... except in your imaginery AP circle jerk forum posts.

No, I haven’t done a $50k deposit at the bank, I think I made that much clear in my post above...since, ya know, they hassle people for depositing or withdrawing “large” amounts. Chase bank (in particular) is extra sweaty and has cut off a bunch of people for many large deposits and withdrawals.

Here’s an idea, Alan — you’ve been right on a grand total of zero times when different discussions like this come up, so maybe you should stop talking about shit you know nothing about. Thanks.

Another category on the list: pornography, which became a hot button issue recently after news reports said that "hundreds" of porn stars suddenly had their bank accounts closed by Chase (though a source close to the matter said Chase doesn't have a specific policy prohibiting porn stars from having bank accounts).

I for now I won't bank with them bastards. That's not to say I wouldn't if I had a good enough reason. Been with the same bank since the early 90's. Back when I was playing online frequently I was in and out of there often, I got to know the cute teller at the main branch. She is now a manager, so whenever I have a problem she takes care of it for me without any hassle. She used to call me when she got $500 bills in.

[AxelWolf]

Alot depends on your relationship with your bank.

Yes.

There are obliviously people who make very large transactions frequently without an issue. You know, guys that roll around in $1.8 Mill RV's.

[AxelWolf]

But wait! That can't be true because Boob21 read articles! Lots and lots of articles! If you read those articles you might think differently, (but probably not).

Of course Boob can't supply a SINGLE one of those, but just trust him. He's right, everyone else is wrong.

It looks to me like he's trying to tie the Game King button hustle with the Keno one.

And Boob, so you know, I'm not an AP. I just hate jackasses that believe they know everything. (<----- that would be YOU)

Hey, Spock, or should I say Spook. Lol. I’ve noticed that’s kind of an AP thing to do, meaning slightly twist a person’s handle and think that makes you clever. Spock/Spook, you can believe whatever you want to... it doesn’t mater to me. No matter how many articles I post, it won’t prove anything. You think these guys were incencent since that’s the way you’re wired. In your world, the casinos are always in the wrong.

At the very least, I think these five people are unethical since they took advantage of a computer bug. What they did is similar to getting free food out of a vending machine when it’s malfunctioning. An AP would probably think this is an advantage play...I think it’s unethical. This is what makes you and me different.

Regardless of how these five people found this play (either by an inside sources or through blind luck), they knew what they did is take advantage of a bug in the machine’s program. They were making 5 times the payout so they knew something was wrong with the program. Therefore, they tried to stay under the radar for as long as possible.

I’m surprised the judge didn’t make these people pay this money back to the casino, like the judge did in the Phil Ivey edge sorting case. But as we all know, each judge is different. Btw, judges have ruled in the favor of the caisbo when a bug happens in a big jackpot payout. I know this gets APs upset too.

To be able to sleep at night, you need to believe what you believe. I don’t want to post an article that might make you doubt your beliefs. I can tell this case is very important to you. I think they are guilty, but I can’t prove it. No article will do that. And at the very least, I think these 5 people have no ethics.

I'm pretty sure some people find card counting unethical. Some people find all forms of gambling unethical.

There seems to be enough clear evidence(WMS admitted there was no link to inside information) what they did was not Illegal. I'm prone to believe had they did anything illegal or had inside information they wouldn't be suing in fear that information might come to light. They know they did nothing illegal and they are going after them for it.

What would you say if no one on the team that worked on the slot machines in question got fired? Perhaps the entire company was in on so they just tossed the AP 5 under the bus?