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Thread: APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

  1. #1

  2. #2
    Definitely a malicious prosecution. And they were referred to as cheats in newspaper articles without being convicted of anything. Harrah's not only got their asses kicked on the game but they are going to get stung for a big settlement. I can deduce a few things from the article.

    The plaintiffs were most likely avoiding W2-G jackpots to not attract attention from the house. I'm familiar with machines that automatically cash a ticket when a certain threshold in accumulated credits is reached. The threshold on the WMS machines at Harrah's Joliet was 3K. The plaintiffs were cashing 3K in accumulated credits at a time....so no W2-G handpay's. But there is nothing illegal about playing low enough that you don't get W2-G's.

    This is another example of sharp gamblers (AP's) recognizing an advantage when they see one. That's all they are guilty of and it's not a crime. A simple example using a two-spot.

    How many two-spots are there when there are 80 numbers in the tank?

    Total combinations = 80X79/2X1 = 3160

    How many combinations include the two-spot that you played when 20 numbers are drawn?

    20X19/2X1 = 190

    What are the chances of hitting the two-spot?

    190/3160 = 16.63158

    The payback percentage depends on what the two-spot pays. Most common pays are 13 for 1, 14 for 1, 15 for 1.

    13/16.63158 = 78.16%
    14/16.63158 = 84.18%
    15/16.63158 = 90.19%

    But what if you found a video keno game where the two-spot payed 17 for 1, or 18 for 1, or 19 for 1?

    17/16.63158 = 102.2%
    18/16.63158 = 108.2%
    19/16.63158 = 114.2%

    If I were to ever find these kinds of payscales I would be on it like white on rice. All the plaintiffs did was recognize a great gambling opportunity. They played the game under the rules of the house. They violated no laws. They were put through 2 years of malicious prosecution. They should get a big settlement.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  3. #3
    You're always quick to jump on these things like it's some sort of "persecution" against "AP gamblers" taking advantage of certain situations--which really, most any regular gambler does and has done for many years. And if these fools had any sort of real life or life experience outside of gambling, they'd have completed their journey with this exploitation without incident.

    And that's the problem with the vast majority of people who like to label themselves as "AP's". They think they're smarter than everyone else, but the truth is all they focus their lives on is casinos and gambling because they're just too stupid to be involved with anything else that could and would go a long way to enhancing their unproductive lives.

    Mickey might have a couple of new heroes here, but even the simplest of common sense says that YOU DO NOT DRIVE ACROSS THE COUNTRY WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN CASH in your vehicle, among other obvious things! That's what true assholes do, and the years of hassles, misery, deprevation and anxiety are exactly what these morons asked for and deserved. Had they had ANY form of stable social or family life they would have been prompted from the start about the most sensible way to handle this. There's that lack of education rearing it's ugly head for these supposed know-it-alls once again.

    And of course, this article was written with a bias, for others with a bias who are trained not to think. Mickey immediately gobbles that type stuff up like a bitch in heat, and when he came up for air he already has them securing some huge settlements. Intelligent people, however, are not so quick on the draw. These guys are as stupid as they come, regardless of their over-inflated egos when they're in casinos. Someone like mickey just can't see that.

  4. #4
    And someone like Robert Harry Argentino can't remember that he is on record on this site saying he has driven countless times between Phoenix and Las Vegas with large sums of money on his person. And defended the practice saying no one knows he has the money on him. So it's okay for Argentino to do it but anyone else that does it is stupid. You can't make this shit up.
    Hate crime hoaxes? The left's demand for biggots greatly exceeds the supply.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Definitely a malicious prosecution. And they were referred to as cheats in newspaper articles without being convicted of anything. Harrah's not only got their asses kicked on the game but they are going to get stung for a big settlement. I can deduce a few things from the article.
    This isn't the first time this same news organizations article has labeled legal AP as cheating. They did the same thing to the 2 hole carders that got caught on Mississippi Stud at Hollywood casino there. The judge immediately threw the case out when the facts were presented.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    And someone like Robert Harry Argentino can't remember that he is on record on this site saying he has driven countless times between Phoenix and Las Vegas with large sums of money on his person. And defended the practice saying no one knows he has the money on him. So it's okay for Argentino to do it but anyone else that does it is stupid. You can't make this shit up.
    Just another example of a couple simple posts that would prove to anyone that had any doubt Singer is an idiot, that he is just by reading them. While I doubt that there is anyone left who doesnít see him as the fraud he is, it never hurts to allow him to show them how wrong they are.

    He has become a parody of the bullshitter he always was.

  7. #7
    I hope everyone can leave the personal insults out. This article needs discussion.

    It is of course wrong for a casino to harass winners by getting police to arrest them and seize their assets. It sounds like a mob hit if you ask me with the casinos paying off the cops.

    I don't see anything indicating that the players broke any laws by cashing out smaller amounts but here there is an error. All casinos maintain CTRs no matter how large or small the amounts. They are obligated to even track $3,000 transactions. There is no $10,000 threshold and I don't know how that wives tale got started.

    About traveling with $100,000 or more in cash: that's just crazy. Anyone who does travel with that kind of cash is asking for trouble and trouble could be having an accident or losing it or having it burn up in a fire.

    The only reason to carry so much cash is to try to hide it from the IRS. The casinos don't care if APs carry cash. In fact the only thing casinos would love you to do even more is have your money in their chips. Oh, how they love it when you have their chips and they have your cash.

    Hint: there is no interest paid on chips. But there is a feds funds rate for overnight cash deposits.
    It's all about quitting when ahead.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    It is of course wrong for a casino to harass winners by getting police to arrest them and seize their assets. It sounds like a mob hit if you ask me with the casinos paying off the cops.
    Tribal casinos are notorious for this. Only difference is they call their cousins at the tribal police and not the state or locals police.

  9. #9
    Hard to believe a manufacturer and/or casino could allow a machine to hit the floor like that, giving extremely advantageous payouts - considering all of the resources they have to make sure that doesn't happen.
    Of course what I'm saying is true. I saw it ON THE INTERNET.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I don't see anything indicating that the players broke any laws by cashing out smaller amounts but here there is an error. All casinos maintain CTRs no matter how large or small the amounts. They are obligated to even track $3,000 transactions. There is no $10,000 threshold and I don't know how that wives tale got started.
    History of Currency Transaction Reports

    When the CTR was initially implemented, the judgment of a bank teller was the only thing that would lead to a suspicious transaction of less than $10,000 being reported to law enforcement. This was primarily due to the financial industry's concern about the right to financial privacy. On October 26, 1986, with the passage of the Money Laundering Control Act, the right to financial privacy ceased being an issue. As part of the Act, Congress stated that a financial institution could not be held liable for releasing suspicious transactional information to law enforcement. As a result, the next version of the CTR had a suspicious transaction check box at the top. This was in effect until April 1996 when the Suspicious Activity Report (SAR) was introduced. The CTR form was once officially form 104, however; it is now form 112.


    How Currency Transaction Reports Currently Work

    When a bank processes a transaction involving more than $10,000, most bank software will automatically create a CTR electronically and fill in tax and other customer information automatically. CTRs since 1996 include an optional checkbox at the top if the bank employee believes the transaction to be suspicious or fraudulent, commonly called a SAR, or Suspicious Activity Referral.


    A bank is not obligated to tell a customer about the $10,000 reporting threshold unless the customer asks. A customer may decline to continue the transaction upon being informed about the CTR, but this would require the bank employee to file a SAR. Once a customer presents or asks to withdraw more than $10,000 in currency, the decision to continue the transaction must continue without reduction to avoid the filing of a CTR. For instance, if a customer reneges on their initial request and instead requests the same transaction for $9,999, the bank employee should deny such a request and continue the transaction as originally requested by filing a CTR. This sort of attempt is known as structuring, and is punishable by federal law against both the customer and the bank employee. Habitual transactions just under the $10,000 threshold may also attract scrutiny and/or the filing of a SAR.

  11. #11
    The most outrageous part of this whole situation is that someone (or several people) working at Harrah's Joliet is apparently tipping off corrupt police departments over multiple states to be on the lookout for winners with loads of cash in their car. Then the cops pull these people over, seize their cash, and presumably the person who tipped at Harrah's gets a kickback.

    Dirrrrrrrrrrrty.

    Keep in mind this wasn't just directed at APs. The article also makes reference to a situation in Iowa where a winner of a poker tournament at Harrah's Joliet was targeted by a corrupt Iowa police department and he had his money seized.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    The most outrageous part of this whole situation is that someone (or several people) working at Harrah's Joliet is apparently tipping off corrupt police departments over multiple states to be on the lookout for winners with loads of cash in their car. Then the cops pull these people over, seize their cash, and presumably the person who tipped at Harrah's gets a kickback.

    Dirrrrrrrrrrrty.

    Keep in mind this wasn't just directed at APs. The article also makes reference to a situation in Iowa where a winner of a poker tournament at Harrah's Joliet was targeted by a corrupt Iowa police department and he had his money seized.

    I know you are kind of stuck as a poker player with them owning WSOP, but this is another reason why no one should give CZRís any business unless you find the rare AP play at their properties.

    Itís one thing to run a casino and set the odds in your advantage and then let the customers decide if they want to play. Itís another to report customers to law enforcement because they fairly beat you.

    True justice would be a record fine or even loss of their gaming license for this incident alone.

  13. #13
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

    If you are following any advice Singer gives, you are already a lost cause.

    Wise Up!

  15. #15
    Living in Vegas and having a play thousands of miles away is meaningless. Pros travel and scout everywhere. We've been to every corner of the country and everywhere in between AP'ing casinos.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

    If you are following any advice Singer gives, you are already a lost cause.

    Wise Up!
    As my dad used to say, “I didn’t fall off a turnip truck yesterday.” What does this mean? I have a brain and don’t believe everything I read. There is usually more to a story this complicated than what you’ll read in a six paragraph article. I repeat. This article was written to the gullible and already converted.

    You’re the one who needs to “wise up.”

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

    If you are following any advice Singer gives, you are already a lost cause.

    Wise Up!
    Boz, don't you read BJTF? They all think this guy is a casino stooge (I'm not saying he is or not). But if true, it explains him siding with these clowns.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois?
    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois?
    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...
    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity? There has to be some APs living in Illinois.

    Look I don’t know the whole case. I didn’t spend that much time researching it. But I did spend enough time to see there is much more going on then what I read in this article. I also don’t think casinos and police are that dumb or corrupt. Are there some rougue ones out there? Sure.

    It’s really not that important to me. I’d just encourage some of the more gullible people on this site to think a little more when you read something like this.

    It reminds me of my brother, who is a left wing liberal who thinks our country is putting all these innocent people in prison. Btw, the press thinks the same thing. Everytime he (from the press) points out an example of someone who was freed from prison who supposedly was wrongly convicted, I look into and find the person was really freed due to some technicality or they got some witness to recant some statement, not because he is innocent.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois?
    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...
    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity? There has to be some APs living in Illinois.
    Same reason ploppies are oblivious to seeing hole card games or ploppies that keep leaving multipliers on UX when they know damn well others are cleaning up playing them off. People are stupid. Not just that, but not all AP's have multiple games they target. Take KJ for example, he'll stick to strictly card counting and nothing more. IMHO, this is career suicide.

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