So here’s the question, why didn’t other people spot it? Mickey said if he’d seen these pay tables, he’d have known right away they were good. It sounds like even an average Joe Blow video poker player should have known these pay tables were incredible.
It’d be like an average gambler spotting a bj table with a 5 to 2 payout on bj. You don’t have to be an advantage player to know this is good. Ploppies would be all over this table. Why weren’t ploppy video players all over these machines?
Something in this story isn’t adding up. Only 5 people identified this incredible opportunity? Maybe, but it doesn’t sound plausible.
I've been following this discussion about the discovery of the Ocean Magic reset. Yes, I think it's amazing that a few people found the reset. But that's the point: ONLY a few people discovered the reset.
Video poker is different. When there is something funny about a VP paytable you'd expect LOTS of players to see it.
But with a slot machine using symbols I'd only expect a few players to spot it. And that's what happened -- only a few players spotted it. So, what's the problem? Why the controversy?
When I blew the whistle on Suncoast to the NGC about their error announcing the close of entries I was the only one in a casino with maybe 2,000 people in it who blew the whistle.
I'm sure that for every player who spotted the reset of the OM machines there were several thousand who didn't.
The video poker game in the pic below is a 114% play. I found it ten years ago on a couple of dozen machines. The key to it being a big advantage is The Natural Aces Full meter. It resets to $100 as you can see in the pic. I had seen this game, Jackpot Aces, many times before but the Aces Full meter was resetting to $10 and I figured it to be mid nineties percentagewise. So when I see one resetting at $100 I knew it could be an advantage. The game can't be fully analyzed by any software on the market but the software can partially analyze it. It was a big help. I had to calculate the chances of a Natural Aces Full myself.
You can also see that this game is just a 50 cent bet. But at 1000 HPH it's a $70 an hour play. That's $70 an hour on just a $500 an hour wager. Juxtapose that to playing $2 Double Bonus with .6% cashback. It's also a $70 an hour play. But you are making a 10K per hour wager. Your money is taking huge fluctuations, in the thousands of dollars an hour. What kind of money fluctuation do you think I'm taking on this Jackpots Aces game? Hardly any. Low risk/high reward has always been my niche in gambling.
Now, the flaw in the game is obviously a technician's error. So what? It's not my probem. I'm just playing the game by the rules of the house. What could they charge me with? Playing video poker on Sunday? It's ten years later and I still have this game on two machines.
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
Okay, I get that. The same is true with bj ploppies. The majority don’t have a clue, but that is not true of all of them. 100s or probably 1000s of people go through that casino daily. You’re telling me not one of them spotted this opportunity.
Here’s what I think might have happened. The other gamblers never spotted this opportunity since these machines were occupied by this group 24/7. That’s why there were 5 people so they could work these machines in shifts and not let anybody else on them.
So here’s the question: Did they just get lucky and spot these machines before anybody else did, or did they get an “inside tip”. While either one could happen, the more plausible explanation is they got an “inside tip”.
I get that the state and casino can’t prove they cheated. But can you at least acknowledge this could have happened?
If you look at what they did, they acted guilty. They acted the way a bank robber acts after they’ve stole money from a bank, driving the get-away car with loads of money across many states. This isn’t how innocent people behave.
I get how someone acts doesn’t prove their guilt or innocence. But you can use some common sense here and come up with your own conclusions.
To each his own. You’re entitled to your opinion. And I’m just giving you mine for what it’s worth.
It was just quarters but still a $140 an hour play. With a play like this you are just not going to have any losing days. That is, if you put in enough hours per day. It's a 111.4% play. Discount the royal and straight flush off the payscale and it's 109%. About 19% of the payback is in the quads and they are on just a 423 game cycle. So what you are going to do is accumulate credits all day just like that keno play in Illinois.
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
Here's another example. I found this game 7 years ago. What made me analyze it was the 6 out of 8 with the Power Hit meter was resetting to $500. On all the other machines it was resetting to $200. So that was the clue for me to analyze this game. It came up 112%. And if they made the mistake on this machine then they may have made it on others. So I scouted the whole state of Montana and found it on a dozen machines. It's 7 years later and I still have the game on 3 machines.
"More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ
Mickey, thanks for posting all these slot advantage opportunities you found. It’s my understanding the casinos have never charged you with doing anything illegal for finding and exploiting these opportunities. If I’m wrong, correct me.
This somewhat proves my point. Casinos don’t just arrest someone for finding slots that give them an advantage. They don’t arrest someone for winning money. There is nothing illegal in doing this.
These five people from Vegas were arrested for spending 18 days on keno machines in Illinois and making what sounds like hundreds of thousands of dollars. I expect the casino has some evidence they did something illegal but not enough to move forward with prosecution..
As someone else said, the burden of proof is very high on the prosecutors to win a case like this. It is not very high in the court of common sense. Common sense tells me something fishy was going on here, but this group did a good job covering their tracks.
you keep wrongly saying that the prosecution decided not to move forward. for the second time now - the Judge threw the case out.
from the article:
"Now-retired Will County Circuit Judge Daniel Rozak "dismissed all charges upon directed verdict motion of the plaintiffs at the close of the state's case without need of any of the plaintiffs' testimony or evidence,"
"Similar criminal charges were brought in the state of Mississippi - their respective criminal charges were also later thrown out in Mississippi."
you have an abiding belief in the honorability of casinos. this is total bullshit.
they don't behave skankily a very lot of the time. but they behave skankily a fair amount of the time.
This blog is dated, this guy has retired, but this guy who called himself The Bear had a blog about casinos behaving skankily
Read for yourself. Although I'm going to bet you're going to say "it doesn't meet your journalistic standards."
you're making comments about this stuff as if you know a lot about it. but you know very little.
casinos have backroomed and gotten physical with dozens of card counters totally unnecessarily; who were doing nothing illegal or immoral for that matter
everybody with half of a brain knows this
you keep saying you "suspect" these guys - good for you
I "suspect" you work or worked for a casino or are or were a shareholder
that is why I "suspect" that you are defending them
and don't bother telling me I'm wrong. I won't believe you. Just like you don't believe these guys.
Just like you, I'm sharing my opinion on a forum.
https://www.thebeargrowls.com/
Last edited by Half Smoke; 03-09-2019 at 10:25 AM.
please don't feed the trolls
When they leave them on multi-streak VP, it doesn't get any sweeter, since (as you know), not only does the multiplier apply to all three hands but the previous player might have left up to three multipliers each of which applies to all three hands for the next three deal-draws and you only need to bet 5 coins to use it, like its successor UX. The only problem is the game is rare . . .
Okay, where do I start. First off, I’ve never said I know a lot about this case. I’m just using some common sense. I did spend a little time researching it, basically reading some articles about it back in 2014, and saw that it was a little more complicated than the article in this thread stated.
Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.
Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.
Here is where I’m going to need you to put on your common sense thinking cap. Do you really think the prosecution’s case was as simple as these 5 people from Vegas won a lot of money so they must’ve cheated? I haven’t read the case briefing, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot more complicated than that.
Look, it’s my nature to be skeptical. It’s how I’m wired. It’s hard for me to believe five people from Vegas just happen to come across a game in Illinois where they could win close to $1 million in about two weeks. I get most here believed this is what happened, and you’re entitled to your beliefs.
I think there’s a little more to it, that’s all. And from what I can gather, I expect they are guilty, but they got off. It happens all the time.
I appreciate the thoughtful debate on this topic and not resorting to name-calling. It’s usually on this site or any other. Thank you!
Yep, judges in the US of A are anti-business and pro-defendant. That explains why the US of A population has an income disparity rivaling ancient Egypt and why the percent of people incarcerated leads the world, with the possible exception of North Korea, whose numbers are tough to figure out. Common sense leads me to exactly those conclusions. Yessirreee, Bob. Well argued.
Note: St. Kitts and the Seychelles are catching up to the US of A. Their judges must have gotten a dose of liberalism.
I've gotta figure Bob21 is just playing at brain dead apologist with a tongue in his cheek, but who knows?
Last edited by redietz; 03-09-2019 at 01:52 PM.
I over over spoke out of frustration. I don’t think everybody on here is a liberal. I can tell some of you are not.. Sorry about that. That’s one of the worse insults you can call someone. I’d rather be called anything other than a liberal. Lol
Half Smoke, I do not know where to start, so let me begin by saying that you have made one excellent and truthful post. Pertaining to the Blog that you put up there and the author LV Bear has been around in the gaming circles for a long time and let me say that he is simply one of the most highly respected members that you could possibly find in the entire gaming community. Anyone who believes and said otherwise would be challenged ruthlessly by literally dozens of AP's.
Now pertaining to Bob21 defending casino rights on this site is no surprise to anyone who belongs to BJTF. Only there he is dbs6582 and he never, and I mean never passes up a chance not only to compliment casino managements , but also always defends them as hard as he can. Many people already believe that he at some point in his life worked in the casino business. Please don't deny that you always defend casinos Bob as you know it is true.
Last edited by BoSox; 03-09-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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