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Thread: APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

  1. #21
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois?
    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...
    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity?
    Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? If you think about that, it should help answer your question. They may have found the machines here in Vegas originally, but the denominations were too low, or they only had a few machines here in Vegas, or perhaps they were taken out quickly due to poor performance so they did some research and found out what other locations had the machines. The locations could have been posted up on the manufactures website even. Oftentimes they will say where they are installing their exciting new games.

    Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers other than IGT.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 03-08-2019 at 09:32 AM.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post

    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...
    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity? There has to be some APs living in Illinois.
    Same reason ploppies are oblivious to seeing hole card games or ploppies that keep leaving multipliers on UX when they know damn well others are cleaning up playing them off. People are stupid. Not just that, but not all AP's have multiple games they target. Take KJ for example, he'll stick to strictly card counting and nothing more. IMHO, this is career suicide.
    Look you could be right. I didn’t do much research on this. I really don’t care. But common sense should tell you this case is more complicated than what you’re reading in this article. My point is God gave you a brain. Use it! Don’t beleieve everything you read, including what I say.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

    This is almost a copy of what I wrote in post #52 of the "Advantage Play in NJ" thread. It's SOP for the casinos. Try to establish any relationship between any of the AP's and the slot manufacturer. Sue the game maker.

    Bob21 appears to be baffled that errors could have been made despite the prosecution case falling apart. This is exactly what I said in my post. Casinos will posit that finding nothing doesn't mean nothing happened. Helluva argument if you don't need facts.

    Mission gets my annual award for best post regarding the telephone.

    Two things phones with cameras have demonstrated convincingly for the last 10 years:

    1) People don't get abducted by aliens (at least not when carrying phones).
    2) Cops do a lot of bad, illegal things.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mission146 View Post

    So, there’s this relatively new invention called the telephone...
    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity?
    Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? If you think about that, it should help answer question.

    Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers.
    Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.

    And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.

    Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Good point. The question still is why didn’t other people spot this opportunity?
    Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? If you think about that, it should help answer question.

    Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers.
    Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.

    And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.

    Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.
    Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.

  6. #26
    p.s. I have been directly involved in stuff where I know exactly what and how it happen and it was 100% clean, however, that didnt stop the casinos and gaming trying to go further.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Interesting story. Since this article was written to the already convertered (meaning people who think casinos and police are corrupt and always in the wrong), I spent some time researching this case last night. There is more to it than what you’re reading here. Casinos are not that dumb. They did not try to prosecute some gamblers just because they won on one of their games. This article says the prosecution case fall apart. This basically means they didn’t have enough evidence to move forward. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a case.

    There’s some questions left unananswerd. For example, how did some gamblers (or APs if you like) who live in Vegas find out about a very vulnerable slot game in Illinois? I get that the prosecution wasn’t able to link them to anybody at the casino or the slot manufacture, but this doesn’t mean their wasn’t a link. This could have been an inside job. Sounds to me like they did a good job covering their tracks.

    Note that the casino sued the slot manufacture too. Again, there is a lot more to this case than you’re reading here. How did a game this vulnerable make it to the floor? Sounds like something fishy is going on.

    Obviously, since the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward with the case, the gamblers are going to counter sue for being falsely arrested. Anybody would do this. As Mickey said, the gamblers will probably get a big settlement. This happens all the time. It’s easier for big business to pay these people off to make them go away then to fight it.

    As Ron Singer has already said, I wouldn’t be so gullible when you read these type of articles. Common sense should tell you there is more to this case than what the press is telling you...

    This is almost a copy of what I wrote in post #52 of the "Advantage Play in NJ" thread. It's SOP for the casinos. Try to establish any relationship between any of the AP's and the slot manufacturer. Sue the game maker.

    Bob21 appears to be baffled that errors could have been made despite the prosecution case falling apart. This is exactly what I said in my post. Casinos will posit that finding nothing doesn't mean nothing happened. Helluva argument if you don't need facts.

    Mission gets my annual award for best post regarding the telephone.

    Two things phones with cameras have demonstrated convincingly for the last 10 years:

    1) People don't get abducted by aliens (at least not when carrying phones).
    2) Cops do a lot of bad, illegal things.
    Wrongo. There are two things that have been shown over the years in these cases. 1) Sometimes casinos are in the wrong and 2) sometimes APs are in the wrong. Both sides have bad apples in their camp. It’s like everything else in life. The bad apples aren’t just on one side.

    As far as cops and cameras. The only footage the press is showing you is the footage where the cops are in the wrong. I get it. That makes news. And these cops should be prosecuted. What you don’t see is the 100 of hours of footage that shows the cops were in the right. That doesn’t make the news.

    Btw, when there is a bad doctor who did something illegal, do you assume every doctor in the world is evil?

    I’ll repeat. There are bad apples out there in every industry and profession. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? If you think about that, it should help answer question.

    Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers.
    Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.

    And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.

    Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.
    Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.
    Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Everytime he (from the press) points out an example of someone who was freed from prison who supposedly was wrongly convicted, I look into and find the person was really freed due to some technicality or they got some witness to recant some statement, not because he is innocent.
    That's quite a streak of finding only those freed for the reasons stated above in your post, as a significant number of people who are wrongly convicted are freed based on DNA evidence.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Everytime he (from the press) points out an example of someone who was freed from prison who supposedly was wrongly convicted, I look into and find the person was really freed due to some technicality or they got some witness to recant some statement, not because he is innocent.
    That's quite a streak of finding only those freed for the reasons stated above in your post, as a significant number of people who are wrongly convicted are freed based on DNA evidence.
    I’m not going to get into this here, because this is very involved. Please spend some time doing your own research on this.

    I have spent quite a bit of my own time researching this since this is my brother’s “hot botton” issue. All these people freed on “DNA evidence” is not what you think. Again, spend some of your own time researching these cases. You’ll be surprised by what'll you find. Remember, come at it with an open mind.

    When someone is convicted of murder or some other major crime, this is done by a jury of their peers. Do you really think only one piece of evidence puts them away? Again, use some common sense here. There is a group called “The Innocence Project” who are basically leftwing nuts trying to free guilty people.

    I’m not saying our justice system hasn’t ever made a mistake. Of course it has. Since it’s run by people, and people aren’t perfect, of course mistakes have been made. But not near to the degree you see in the press. The press makes it seem like most people in prison are innocent.

    Also, some of the people freed based on so called DNA evidence have a rap sheet a mile long. So even if they got this one wrong, they probably should be serving time in prison for one of the other crimes they’ve done. I know in our system you can’t use a person past criminal record against them.

    I’m not a fan of the mainstream press. They have an agenda, and since most people are lazy, most people believe what they write. Most of their stories are slanted and don’t tell the whole story. The good news is we have the internet where we can do our own research.

  11. #31
    there are some pro gamblers that cheat, no doubt

    but it is much, much worse when a casino, particularly a large casino does skanky stuff because they are giant corporations and have a great deal of money and power

    they have a larger responsibility for their actions, as they represent the corporation, the employees and the shareholders

    when they do this kind of stuff, present charges that are so weak that a judge dismisses them it is reprehensible

    casino corporations are not all bad. but they need to be called to account when they abuse their power
    please don't feed the trolls

  12. #32
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.

    And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.

    Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.
    Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.
    Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    Or a jackass like you is just desperate to find a reason to discredit it. You obviously have no clue how shit works. But hopefully Robbo shows you his 9 1/2 cock for you to believe how truthful he is.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    Nobody has to answer any questions about this incident.

    In this country there is this little thing called the presumption of innocence.

    Nobody can legally be forced to answer questions if they are suspected of a crime.

    The burden of proof is on the State bringing charges

    If a sitting Judge dismisses the State's case that says volumes about prosecutorial ineptitude.

    No individual is required to prove his innocence.

    If you want to believe that people who have not been convicted are not innocent - Go For It.

    It falls into the "who cares what you think" category. Carries no weight at all.
    Last edited by Half Smoke; 03-08-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    please don't feed the trolls

  14. #34
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Understood! Here’s my point, which most are missing. The casino had some case against them, which is why they were prosecuting them. I have not looked at the case, but I doubt if the casino would have moved forward if they didn’t have something on them. The case came apart, I get that part. This basically means the casino didn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This happens all the time. Guilt people walk free all the time because there is not enough evidence to convict them. Just because someone isn’t convicted of a crime doesn’t mean they didn’t commit the crime.

    And yes, these people in this case will probably win a big settlement from the casino. This too happens all the time. Companies settle these type of cases out of court because it isn’t worth their time or money to fight it. They will probably lose anyway, even if they did nothing wrong. With this said, they could be in the wrong.

    Look, if you want to believe everything you read, go ahead. There is no crime in that.
    Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.
    Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    I already explained the posibbilities "Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers."

    Again, they may have found it here in Vegas first and it was only in lower denominations or it was taken out soon after, so they went in search for it (or make phone calls)in other locations. That's what many AP's do when something good comes out. They start searching other available locations. That's like common ABC AP stuff.

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    Nobody has to answer any questions about this incident.

    In this country there is this little thing called the presumption of innocence.

    Nobody can legally be forced to answer questions if they are suspected of a crime.

    The burden of proof is on the State bringing charges

    If a sitting Judge dismisses the State's case that says volumes about prosecutorial ineptitude.

    No individual is required to prove his innocence.

    If you want to believe that people who have not been convicted are not innocent - Go For It.

    It falls into the "who cares what you think" category. Carries no weight at all.
    I 100% agree with you. I never said they were guilt. I never said they needed to prove their innocents. I just gave my opinion. That’s what forums are for. You have a right to disagree with my opinion. I have no problem with that. But I also have a right to question their story and their innocents. That’s all I’m doing based on very little information. I get that.

    To me, it does seem a little supiscious that 5 people from Vegas just happened to know about a flawed game in Illinois. I get that this isn’t enough to convict anybody on. And I understand they could be totally innocent. As you’ve said, it is incumbent on the state to prove their guilt. And since the state dropped the case, the state obviously doesn’t have enough evidence to move forward.

    This doesn’t prove they are guilty or innocent. In the end, they and God only know what really happened.

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Well, I'm not just going on things I read. I didnt even read the article, I didnt have to(I may have read something about it between then and now). I knew about this soon after it went down. There is more to the story(there always is) that's not to say the "more to the story" is anything of real consequences. It fairly simple. They found machines with a flaw, they exploited the flaw, the casino got mad and tried anything and everything they could to get them on something. The case fell apart because they really didnt have anything.
    Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    I already explained the posibbilities "Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers."

    Again, they may have found it here in Vegas first and it was only in lower denominations or it was taken out soon after, so they went in search for it (or make phone calls)in other locations. That's what many AP's do when something good comes out. They start searching other available locations. That's like common ABC AP stuff.
    Sorry axel, but that explanation doesn't even fall under the "It's a Stretch" column.

    You make it appear like the game manufacturers are a collection of inept people, and casinos are run by their illegitimate children....while at the same time there's this secret society of ultra intelligent AP's who've been beamed in from Planet X, who somehow "know what to look for" in new machines before they're put onto casino floors, and who can do hi-denomination machine-checks throughout the country AND PLAY THEM TO DEATH before an email goes out to all casinos offering those exploitable machines. Yup----these super duper AP's are not only clairvoyant--they're faster than the speed of light!

  17. #37
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Okay, I get that part. But how do you find a flaw in a game hundreds of miles from where you live? Vegas is not close to Illinois. Okay, someone called them and told them about it? Who is this person? Why didn’t they exploit it? At the very least, I hope you can see there are some valid questions that haven’t been answered.
    I already explained the posibbilities "Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers."

    Again, they may have found it here in Vegas first and it was only in lower denominations or it was taken out soon after, so they went in search for it (or make phone calls)in other locations. That's what many AP's do when something good comes out. They start searching other available locations. That's like common ABC AP stuff.
    Sorry axel, but that explanation doesn't even fall under the "It's a Stretch" column.

    You make it appear like the game manufacturers are a collection of inept people, and casinos are run by their illegitimate children....while at the same time there's this secret society of ultra intelligent AP's who've been beamed in from Planet X, who somehow "know what to look for" in new machines before they're put onto casino floors, and who can do hi-denomination machine-checks throughout the country AND PLAY THEM TO DEATH before an email goes out to all casinos offering those exploitable machines. Yup----these super duper AP's are not only clairvoyant--they're faster than the speed of light!
    No, you are making it sound like I'm making sound like that.

    I can only assume making a new game is very complicated. For the most part they get it right, however, mistakes are made an things slip though the cracks, It seems to be often enough to make it worthwhile searching for vulnerabilities, especially if you know what you are looking for. The money that can be made is significant so the motivation is there.

    If a company like IGT can make mistakes, just imagine what kind of mistakes a new or lessor company might make.


    I'm not sure why you think the there has to be some super alien intelligence needed to figure this stuff out. Why do You find it hard to believe the guys looking for this stuff are not at least as smart as the people making them? Some of them may have backgrounds in this type of stuff. Also, people learn from past experiences knowing what kinds of things to look for. For example, there have been many cases over the years where bill acceptors have similar problems that tend to be highly exploitable. I myself have found more than one glitch without even searching or knowing about it prior. And I have no software programming, machine tech or machine mechanic experience.

    There are lots of glitches you never hear about, I can assure you that, even when there is big money involved.

    Apparently you don't keep up on just how inept the casinos actually are. If they were on the ball then we wouldn't be constantly reading about the big numbers casinos get hit for.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 03-09-2019 at 03:35 AM.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    I already explained the posibbilities "Do you realize there are a few people who specialize in looking for ways to exploit bugs, glitches and vulnerabilities on slot machines? They know what to look for and probably keep updated on new machines hitting the market, especially machines from different manufacturers."

    Again, they may have found it here in Vegas first and it was only in lower denominations or it was taken out soon after, so they went in search for it (or make phone calls)in other locations. That's what many AP's do when something good comes out. They start searching other available locations. That's like common ABC AP stuff.
    Sorry axel, but that explanation doesn't even fall under the "It's a Stretch" column.

    You make it appear like the game manufacturers are a collection of inept people, and casinos are run by their illegitimate children....while at the same time there's this secret society of ultra intelligent AP's who've been beamed in from Planet X, who somehow "know what to look for" in new machines before they're put onto casino floors, and who can do hi-denomination machine-checks throughout the country AND PLAY THEM TO DEATH before an email goes out to all casinos offering those exploitable machines. Yup----these super duper AP's are not only clairvoyant--they're faster than the speed of light!
    No, you are making it sound like I'm making sound like that.

    I can only assume making a new game is very complicated. For the most part they get it right, however, mistakes are made an things slip though the cracks, It seems to be often enough to make it worthwhile searching for vulnerabilities, especially if you know what you are looking for. The money that can be made is significant so the motivation is there.

    If a company like IGT can make mistakes, just imagine what kind of mistakes a new or lessor company might make.


    I'm not sure why you think the there has to be some super alien intelligence needed to figure this stuff out. Why do You find it hard to believe the guys looking for this stuff are not at least as smart as the people making them? Some of them may have backgrounds in this type of stuff. Also, people learn from past experiences knowing what kinds of things to look for. For example, there have been many cases over the years where bill acceptors have similar problems that tend to be highly exploitable. I myself have found more than one glitch without even searching or knowing about it prior. And I have no software programming, machine tech or machine mechanic experience.

    There are lots of glitches you never hear about, I can assure you that, even when there is big money involved.

    Apparently you don't keep up on just how inept the casinos actually are. If they were on the ball then we wouldn't be constantly reading about the big numbers casinos get hit for.
    For all those who believe this story “hook line and sinker” explain to me this....how did they find this flawed game living in Vegas?

    Someone said by phone, which I’m assuming means someone called them up to tell them about it. Okay, I get that. But who is that person? Why would he/she call someone in Vegas to exploit a game they found in Illinois?

    Here’s what I think happened based on some common sense. Someone at the game manufacturer or casino, programmed a flaw into the game and then called someone they knew to exploit it. It’s called “an inside job”. It happens all the time. This sounds more plausible than 5 Vegas gamblers just happening to find a flawed game in Illinois. I get the state doesn’t have enough evidence to prove this is what happened, but I expect this is what they think happened.

    Rob has brought this up before, but who drives across multiple states with $400,000 in their car? While this isn’t illegal, this sure sounds like something a guilty (or stupid) person would do. There’s a reason the casinos alerted the police to be on the lookout for that car.

    The article was preaching to the choir, and the choir bought this story so fast they didn’t have time to put on their thinking caps when they read it. I get it. This article supported the biases you have against casinos and police.

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    how did they find this flawed game living in Vegas?
    I explained this already. You travel and scout. No doubt these people also came up empty with no plays hundreds of times. And I'm sure that Illinois isn't the only place this play was found in.

  20. #40
    Here's a real world example of a flawed payscale....if that's what you want to call it. This game was found in the bartops at the Wendover Nugget several years ago. When Nugget management finally snapped to it no one was charged with anything. What could they charge them with? They were just playing the game by the house rules. Management is responsible for their games being mathematically sound, not the players.

    In the screenshot below you can see the game is 8/6 Bonus Poker Deluxe. Can you spot the flaw?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

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