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Thread: APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    And someone like Robert Harry Argentino can't remember that he is on record on this site saying he has driven countless times between Phoenix and Las Vegas with large sums of money on his person. And defended the practice saying no one knows he has the money on him. So it's okay for Argentino to do it but anyone else that does it is stupid. You can't make this shit up.
    Again, that lack of education leading to a limited comprehension of life experiences, has produced yet ANOTHER amateurish response.

    Here's a hint mickey, and look it up: the drive from LV to Phx. is 300 miles. The most cash I've ever carried was just under a hundred k, once. And if I got stopped, there would be no search because I'm a long retired Fed. and I own a 49-state US CCW.

    Now compare that to a couple of uneducated doofuses with genius-complexes who for some reason thought they could go thousands of miles without getting stopped and searched--even if no one had a hard-on for them. Completely 100% stupid.

    Wise up....and learn a better method of picking your idols.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post


    Casinos don’t just arrest someone They don’t arrest someone for winning money.

    I expect the casino has some evidence they did something illegal but not enough to move forward with prosecution..

    you keep wrongly saying that the prosecution decided not to move forward. for the second time now - the Judge threw the case out.


    from the article:

    "Now-retired Will County Circuit Judge Daniel Rozak "dismissed all charges upon directed verdict motion of the plaintiffs at the close of the state's case without need of any of the plaintiffs' testimony or evidence,"

    "Similar criminal charges were brought in the state of Mississippi - their respective criminal charges were also later thrown out in Mississippi."



    you have an abiding belief in the honorability of casinos. this is total bullshit.
    they don't behave skankily a very lot of the time. but they behave skankily a fair amount of the time.

    This blog is dated, this guy has retired, but this guy who called himself The Bear had a blog about casinos behaving skankily

    Read for yourself. Although I'm going to bet you're going to say "it doesn't meet your journalistic standards."


    you're making comments about this stuff as if you know a lot about it. but you know very little.
    casinos have backroomed and gotten physical with dozens of card counters totally unnecessarily; who were doing nothing illegal or immoral for that matter
    everybody with half of a brain knows this

    you keep saying you "suspect" these guys - good for you
    I "suspect" you work or worked for a casino or are or were a shareholder
    that is why I "suspect" that you are defending them


    and don't bother telling me I'm wrong. I won't believe you. Just like you don't believe these guys.

    Just like you, I'm sharing my opinion on a forum.


    https://www.thebeargrowls.com/
    Okay, where do I start. First off, I’ve never said I know a lot about this case. I’m just using some common sense. I did spend a little time researching it, basically reading some articles about it back in 2014, and saw that it was a little more complicated than the article in this thread stated.

    Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.

    Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.

    Here is where I’m going to need you to put on your common sense thinking cap. Do you really think the prosecution’s case was as simple as these 5 people from Vegas won a lot of money so they must’ve cheated? I haven’t read the case briefing, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot more complicated than that.

    Look, it’s my nature to be skeptical. It’s how I’m wired. It’s hard for me to believe five people from Vegas just happen to come across a game in Illinois where they could win close to $1 million in about two weeks. I get most here believed this is what happened, and you’re entitled to your beliefs.

    I think there’s a little more to it, that’s all. And from what I can gather, I expect they are guilty, but they got off. It happens all the time.

    I appreciate the thoughtful debate on this topic and not resorting to name-calling. It’s usually on this site or any other. Thank you!
    You expect they are guilty? Of what?
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    And someone like Robert Harry Argentino can't remember that he is on record on this site saying he has driven countless times between Phoenix and Las Vegas with large sums of money on his person. And defended the practice saying no one knows he has the money on him. So it's okay for Argentino to do it but anyone else that does it is stupid. You can't make this shit up.
    Again, that lack of education leading to a limited comprehension of life experiences, has produced yet ANOTHER amateurish response.

    Here's a hint mickey, and look it up: the drive from LV to Phx. is 300 miles. The most cash I've ever carried was just under a hundred k, once. And if I got stopped, there would be no search because I'm a long retired Fed. and I own a 49-state US CCW.

    Now compare that to a couple of uneducated doofuses with genius-complexes who for some reason thought they could go thousands of miles without getting stopped and searched--even if no one had a hard-on for them. Completely 100% stupid.

    Wise up....and learn a better method of picking your idols.
    Again that low IQ of yours is shining through. You are especially bad at math....which explains why you never put any math up on your video poker play. Let's see:

    300 miles each way.
    One roundtrip a week for ten years.
    By golly, I do believe that adds up to 300,000 miles

    And if your video poker career is to be believed you had to be carrying 5 figures every time. Cops have taken money in just 4 figures.

    PS: Could you show the quote where I said or implied that those guys are my idols? No you can't. Just more Argentino made up bullshit. That is the only thing you are definitely good at. Get a life.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    Sorry axel, but that explanation doesn't even fall under the "It's a Stretch" column.

    You make it appear like the game manufacturers are a collection of inept people, and casinos are run by their illegitimate children....while at the same time there's this secret society of ultra intelligent AP's who've been beamed in from Planet X, who somehow "know what to look for" in new machines before they're put onto casino floors, and who can do hi-denomination machine-checks throughout the country AND PLAY THEM TO DEATH before an email goes out to all casinos offering those exploitable machines. Yup----these super duper AP's are not only clairvoyant--they're faster than the speed of light!
    No, you are making it sound like I'm making sound like that.

    I can only assume making a new game is very complicated. For the most part they get it right, however, mistakes are made an things slip though the cracks, It seems to be often enough to make it worthwhile searching for vulnerabilities, especially if you know what you are looking for. The money that can be made is significant so the motivation is there.

    If a company like IGT can make mistakes, just imagine what kind of mistakes a new or lessor company might make.


    I'm not sure why you think the there has to be some super alien intelligence needed to figure this stuff out. Why do You find it hard to believe the guys looking for this stuff are not at least as smart as the people making them? Some of them may have backgrounds in this type of stuff. Also, people learn from past experiences knowing what kinds of things to look for. For example, there have been many cases over the years where bill acceptors have similar problems that tend to be highly exploitable. I myself have found more than one glitch without even searching or knowing about it prior. And I have no software programming, machine tech or machine mechanic experience.

    There are lots of glitches you never hear about, I can assure you that, even when there is big money involved.

    Apparently you don't keep up on just how inept the casinos actually are. If they were on the ball then we wouldn't be constantly reading about the big numbers casinos get hit for.
    For all those who believe this story “hook line and sinker” explain to me this....how did they find this flawed game living in Vegas?

    Someone said by phone, which I’m assuming means someone called them up to tell them about it. Okay, I get that. But who is that person? Why would he/she call someone in Vegas to exploit a game they found in Illinois?

    Here’s what I think happened based on some common sense. Someone at the game manufacturer or casino, programmed a flaw into the game and then called someone they knew to exploit it. It’s called “an inside job”. It happens all the time. This sounds more plausible than 5 Vegas gamblers just happening to find a flawed game in Illinois. I get the state doesn’t have enough evidence to prove this is what happened, but I expect this is what they think happened.

    Rob has brought this up before, but who drives across multiple states with $400,000 in their car? While this isn’t illegal, this sure sounds like something a guilty (or stupid) person would do. There’s a reason the casinos alerted the police to be on the lookout for that car.

    The article was preaching to the choir, and the choir bought this story so fast they didn’t have time to put on their thinking caps when they read it. I get it. This article supported the biases you have against casinos and police.
    You have no clue where they found this situation first. As I said before, they could have found it closer to their residence and it was taken out so they called the manufactures to find out where else the games were installed.

    Why would someone call others from a different state and not just do it themselves? Many AP's have deals where they share any and all information with their team. They split up the scouting responsibilities. They may even hire a guy to do most of the scouting.

    I don't think they locked up the machines 24/7. There was probably a bank of machines and 5 guys wouldn't even be able to lock up all the machines 24/7.

    Why didnt every Joe blow and other AP's find this situation? I all ready bought this up. I will bring it up again. Why didn't other people spot the the Game King double up bug in the Nestor case? I will help you answer that. Because its not blatantly staring you in the face like a messed up VP payable. Not just anyone playing the machine would benefit from the glitch. You had to do multiple things for it to work and reap the rewards.

    Its been a long time now and I cant remember exactly how the keno glitch worked but IIRC it was a multi step processes. Imagine if you could play .25 a spin on keno and after you hit a 5 spot you could go into the game menu and then pull up the same game on a higher denomination and then get paid 20 times that amount.

    They were probably traveling with the 400k to meet with their partners and split up the money. They probably traveled with large amounts of cash many times prior to this without a problem.

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post


    you keep wrongly saying that the prosecution decided not to move forward. for the second time now - the Judge threw the case out.


    from the article:

    "Now-retired Will County Circuit Judge Daniel Rozak "dismissed all charges upon directed verdict motion of the plaintiffs at the close of the state's case without need of any of the plaintiffs' testimony or evidence,"

    "Similar criminal charges were brought in the state of Mississippi - their respective criminal charges were also later thrown out in Mississippi."



    you have an abiding belief in the honorability of casinos. this is total bullshit.
    they don't behave skankily a very lot of the time. but they behave skankily a fair amount of the time.

    This blog is dated, this guy has retired, but this guy who called himself The Bear had a blog about casinos behaving skankily

    Read for yourself. Although I'm going to bet you're going to say "it doesn't meet your journalistic standards."


    you're making comments about this stuff as if you know a lot about it. but you know very little.
    casinos have backroomed and gotten physical with dozens of card counters totally unnecessarily; who were doing nothing illegal or immoral for that matter
    everybody with half of a brain knows this

    you keep saying you "suspect" these guys - good for you
    I "suspect" you work or worked for a casino or are or were a shareholder
    that is why I "suspect" that you are defending them


    and don't bother telling me I'm wrong. I won't believe you. Just like you don't believe these guys.

    Just like you, I'm sharing my opinion on a forum.


    https://www.thebeargrowls.com/
    Okay, where do I start. First off, I’ve never said I know a lot about this case. I’m just using some common sense. I did spend a little time researching it, basically reading some articles about it back in 2014, and saw that it was a little more complicated than the article in this thread stated.

    Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.

    Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.

    Here is where I’m going to need you to put on your common sense thinking cap. Do you really think the prosecution’s case was as simple as these 5 people from Vegas won a lot of money so they must’ve cheated? I haven’t read the case briefing, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot more complicated than that.

    Look, it’s my nature to be skeptical. It’s how I’m wired. It’s hard for me to believe five people from Vegas just happen to come across a game in Illinois where they could win close to $1 million in about two weeks. I get most here believed this is what happened, and you’re entitled to your beliefs.

    I think there’s a little more to it, that’s all. And from what I can gather, I expect they are guilty, but they got off. It happens all the time.

    I appreciate the thoughtful debate on this topic and not resorting to name-calling. It’s usually on this site or any other. Thank you!
    You expect they are guilty? Of what?
    Of what they were charged for, manipulating a video keno machine. Read the article. The case was thrown out by a retired judge, who was probably a leftwing liberal nut. Most judges are.

    Point being just because a case has been thrown out by some judge, it doesn’t mean the case doesn’t have merit, and these people aren’t guilty of what they are charged with.

    This happens all the time. Judges throw out cases for a variety of different reasons. I didn’t look into why this judge threw out this case, but knowing judges, it was probably becsue of some technicality like the prosecutors got their evidence the wrong way.

    I just used some common sense. I know the prosecutors didn’t bring charges against these 5 people just because they won some money. I expect they had some evidence they were cheating.

    The majority here didn’t agree with me. That’s there right. What I’ve noticed is APs and gamblers are fairly gullible and beleieve anything they read. I don’t. I use some common sense.

    This case doesn’t matter to me. Please believe what you want to.

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    What I’ve noticed is APs and gamblers are fairly gullible and beleieve anything they read.

    they don't believe what they've read if you've written it. that's for sure



    and BTW, you weren't even close to spelling the word "believe" correctly
    maybe you're not real strong on reading and writing
    please don't feed the trolls

  7. #67
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    What I’ve noticed is APs and gamblers are fairly gullible and beleieve anything they read.

    they don't believe what they've read if you've written it. that's for sure



    and BTW, you weren't even close to spelling the word "believe" correctly
    maybe you're not real strong on reading and writing
    Good job Half Smoke. You got me..you spotted a spelling mistake. I type these posts on my phone and sometimes don't check them till I hit post. Yeah, sometimes I see there are some spelling and sentence errors but since I’m not in school turning this in as a paper for a grade, I don’t go back and correct it. Btw, I’ve noticed other people do the same thing. Btw, are you an elementary school teacher?

    Please reread my posts in this thread. I encouraged you to NOT believe (I made sure I spelled believe right this time since I know this is very important to you) everything I say. The key is to use some common sense. It doesn’t matter who is writing or saying something (me, the press or your best friend), don’t just believe it because it lines up with your world view.

    Btw, I could tell I won this argument with you because you pointed out a meaningless thing in my post. You never attacked my main points. How long did it take you to find such a meaningless missspelled work? For the record, I’m proud of you for doing this. I’m sure it made you feel very important.

  8. #68
    Bob21 wrote: "Here’s what I think happened based on some common sense. Someone at the game manufacturer or casino, programmed a flaw into the game and then called someone they knew to exploit it. It’s called “an inside job”. It happens all the time. This sounds more plausible than 5 Vegas gamblers just happening to find a flawed game in Illinois. I get the state doesn’t have enough evidence to prove this is what happened, but I expect this is what they think happened."

    Yeah it's possible it was an inside job but it's also possible it was just an innocent mistake made by the game company that a regular player spotted.

    I think if there was a criminal conspiracy it would me more likely that smaller dollar amounts would be used to fly under the radar. Even casino crooks realize that high denomination play gets noticed and if you're doing something crooked why risk attracting attention?

    I'm going with the machine maker goofed with its program. A regular player spotted it, passed the info along and a small group attacked the machines.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You never attacked my main points.

    your main point is you "suspect" people are guilty who had their case thrown out of court. I got it. you're a very suspicious person. what a great main point. what a wonderful world view.


    I'm sometimes suspicious too. and I "suspect" you, as I said before - of being a casino employee.
    please don't feed the trolls

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.

    Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    The case was thrown out by a retired judge, who was probably a leftwing liberal nut. Most judges are.

    Point being just because a case has been thrown out by some judge, it doesn’t mean the case doesn’t have merit, and these people aren’t guilty of what they are charged with.
    Yea. evil librul's let them go! Your Spidy sense, oops, "common sense", tells you so.

    Turns out the judge just retired and there's an article about him:

    https://www.theherald-news.com/2017/...-work/ahkx3d0/

    Here's an excerpt:

    It appeared the defendant was used to challenging authority.

    Before being taken back to the county jail, he mentioned several issues with the charges brought against him, then started asking different court personnel for their names – his manner becoming slightly belligerent.

    “I’m Judge Daniel Rozak,” the man at the bench said in a deep and dry tone. “I’m surprised you haven’t heard of me.”

    While attorneys chuckled as the belligerence evaporated, the jail inmates who were sitting behind the newly indicted – some who faced life sentences – burst into raucous laughter.

    The transcript could be used as evidence that Rozak – who retires this week after a 40-year legal career and 21 years on the bench – is aware of his reputation as the harshest judge in Will County.

    “I think I’ve probably been subbed out more than the average judge,” Rozak said. “There are, I think, times attorneys have wanted to keep a case with me, but will say ‘My client heard all these stories in the county jail...’ ”
    And guess what? He's a Republican!

    So it seems that the only thing you contributed to this thread that's correct is when you said "Okay, I got it wrong".

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Okay, where do I start. First off, I’ve never said I know a lot about this case. I’m just using some common sense. I did spend a little time researching it, basically reading some articles about it back in 2014, and saw that it was a little more complicated than the article in this thread stated.

    Okay, I got it wrong. The judge threw it out, and it wasn’t the prosecutors dropping their charges. This makes my argument even stronger.

    Most judges are very liberal, meaning they are pro-defendant and anti-business. That’s a fact. I hope we don’t end up debating this point. Judges throw out cases all the time. They release murders quite often based on some technicality. These murders then go out and murder more people. A judge throwing out a case doesn’t mean a lot to me. I know it means a lot to the press and to liberals.

    Here is where I’m going to need you to put on your common sense thinking cap. Do you really think the prosecution’s case was as simple as these 5 people from Vegas won a lot of money so they must’ve cheated? I haven’t read the case briefing, but I’m pretty sure it’s a lot more complicated than that.

    Look, it’s my nature to be skeptical. It’s how I’m wired. It’s hard for me to believe five people from Vegas just happen to come across a game in Illinois where they could win close to $1 million in about two weeks. I get most here believed this is what happened, and you’re entitled to your beliefs.

    I think there’s a little more to it, that’s all. And from what I can gather, I expect they are guilty, but they got off. It happens all the time.

    I appreciate the thoughtful debate on this topic and not resorting to name-calling. It’s usually on this site or any other. Thank you!
    You expect they are guilty? Of what?
    Of what they were charged for, manipulating a video keno machine. Read the article. The case was thrown out by a retired judge, who was probably a leftwing liberal nut. Most judges are.

    Point being just because a case has been thrown out by some judge, it doesn’t mean the case doesn’t have merit, and these people aren’t guilty of what they are charged with.

    This happens all the time. Judges throw out cases for a variety of different reasons. I didn’t look into why this judge threw out this case, but knowing judges, it was probably becsue of some technicality like the prosecutors got their evidence the wrong way.

    I just used some common sense. I know the prosecutors didn’t bring charges against these 5 people just because they won some money. I expect they had some evidence they were cheating.

    The majority here didn’t agree with me. That’s there right. What I’ve noticed is APs and gamblers are fairly gullible and beleieve anything they read. I don’t. I use some common sense.

    This case doesn’t matter to me. Please believe what you want to.
    My guess is that they thought what they were doing was Illegal since they didn't have all the facts. They may have thought it was an inside Job at first. They tried to get Nestor and his partner for illegal activity as well. They even tried making up some BS hacking charges.

    I'm not sure if the Grand opening Rampart Video BJ story ever hit the news(had it you would have thought it was an inside job as well). The casino miss programmed their card readers on a bank of machines and all the good machines got locked up. The casino got hit for a significant amount via the cash back from the players club.

    The casino and Gaming detained two of people who played the 2 best machines and made the most and put them though the ringer. Gaming went all rouge making a bunch of accusations of an inside job, they thought the MIT team/ CalCorp etc etc was involved(not one of them guys were there). They called and threatened AP's that played on that bank "Someone is going to jail" They couldn't figure out why the machines were miss programmed or how the AP's found out about it. They thought for sure it had to be an inside JOB. I KNOW FOR A FACT IT WASN'T. It was very simple and obvious what happen once you thought about it for a few minutes. The casino had accidentally reversed the card card readers. The $5 denominations thought it was a $100 denomination and so on.

    Since it was a grand opening many AP's attended in hopes of finding a situation just like this.

    AP's always check the games and pay tables. Since this game payed 3:2 on BJ and they had cash back though players club it could be worth playing anyways. Then of course, everyone noticed the points were racking up faster than they should have been, then it was game on.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 03-10-2019 at 03:35 PM.

  12. #72
    The Rampart had the IGT 100% video blackjack game. I worked it there for like 1.5% cashback on a promotion. I think it was the year 2000.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You never attacked my main points.

    your main point is you "suspect" people are guilty who had their case thrown out of court. I got it. you're a very suspicious person. what a great main point. what a wonderful world view.


    I'm sometimes suspicious too. and I "suspect" you, as I said before - of being a casino employee.
    Half Smoke, you still missed it. My suspicion is based on the fact the prosecutors spent a year trying to prosecute this case. Here’s where some “common sense” comes in. Please put on your thinking cap. No state prosecutor would spend a year on this case - or any case - if they didn’t have some evidence to support their case.

    Do you really think the prosecutors spent all this time on this case and all they had is, “they won a bunch of money so they must have cheated”. Come on now, you’ve got to be smarter than that. You know how to spell believe after all.

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You never attacked my main points.

    your main point is you "suspect" people are guilty who had their case thrown out of court. I got it. you're a very suspicious person. what a great main point. what a wonderful world view.


    I'm sometimes suspicious too. and I "suspect" you, as I said before - of being a casino employee.
    Half Smoke, you still missed it. My suspicion is based on the fact the prosecutors spent a year trying to prosecute this case. Here’s where some “common sense” comes in. Please put on your thinking cap. No state prosecutor would spend a year on this case - or any case - if they didn’t have some evidence to support their case.

    Do you really think the prosecutors spent all this time on this case and all they had is, “they won a bunch of money so they must have cheated”. Come on now, you’ve got to be smarter than that. You know how to spell believe after all.
    YES, OF COURSE THEY WOULD!!! They have done it before and they will do it again. I think the Nestor/Kane case went on for at least a year and a half.

  15. #75
    Sometimes Gaming is just ignorant of what's going on and so they suspect cheating. I have a friend, a one time writer for Video Poker Times, that was in the unenviable position of having to explain how he hit 7 royals in one day at the Carson Valley Inn in Minden. Of course, the game he was playing was Draw Till U Win where the royal odds are only 9700. Casino management and Gaming were totally ignorant about a game that had royal odds that low. It took quite a lot of explaining but they finally let him go.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #76
    Why didn’t other people find this? Well for one, I’d venture to guess very few gamblers really know the difference in paytables and almost none are able to calculate the payback. They don’t think in terms of house edge, expected loss, or anything like that. They *might* know VP is better than slots, but they don’t know that slots/keno are 10-20x worse than VP. If they even understand there’s a difference, they just know VP is better, but have no idea how to quantify that.

    There are many different paytables on VP and keno. 9/6 is good for some games, bad for others, and awesome for others (JoB, DB, BP respectively).

    Considering Alan is probably among the top 10% in terms of gambling intelligence among ploppies, do you really think they would be able to spot a good paytable? Do you think they can even comprehend the idea that a machine is messed up and is giving the player an advantage? No, absolutely not.


    How did the APs who played it find it? I have no idea. Sometimes it’s just dumb luck — you sit down to play off your FP or whatever and you notice the guy next to you is playing keno and the paytable looks irregular — so you remember the paytable and do the math when you go to the bathroom or the parking garage. Other times you might have a reason to actively scout paytables.
    #FreeTyde

  17. #77
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    You never attacked my main points.

    your main point is you "suspect" people are guilty who had their case thrown out of court. I got it. you're a very suspicious person. what a great main point. what a wonderful world view.


    I'm sometimes suspicious too. and I "suspect" you, as I said before - of being a casino employee.
    Half Smoke, you still missed it. My suspicion is based on the fact the prosecutors spent a year trying to prosecute this case. Here’s where some “common sense” comes in. Please put on your thinking cap. No state prosecutor would spend a year on this case - or any case - if they didn’t have some evidence to support their case.

    Do you really think the prosecutors spent all this time on this case and all they had is, “they won a bunch of money so they must have cheated”. Come on now, you’ve got to be smarter than that. You know how to spell believe after all.

    Prosecutors are sometimes in the pocket of of casino interests because of their money and power

    you don't know that. which isn't surprising. there's not much that you know other than how to scribble a bunch of bullshit
    please don't feed the trolls

  18. #78
    Originally Posted by Spock View Post



    Yea. evil librul's let them go! Your Spidy sense, oops, "common sense", tells you so.

    Turns out the judge just retired and there's an article about him:

    https://www.theherald-news.com/2017/...-work/ahkx3d0/

    Here's an excerpt:

    It appeared the defendant was used to challenging authority.

    Before being taken back to the county jail, he mentioned several issues with the charges brought against him, then started asking different court personnel for their names – his manner becoming slightly belligerent.

    “I’m Judge Daniel Rozak,” the man at the bench said in a deep and dry tone. “I’m surprised you haven’t heard of me.”

    While attorneys chuckled as the belligerence evaporated, the jail inmates who were sitting behind the newly indicted – some who faced life sentences – burst into raucous laughter.

    The transcript could be used as evidence that Rozak – who retires this week after a 40-year legal career and 21 years on the bench – is aware of his reputation as the harshest judge in Will County.

    “I think I’ve probably been subbed out more than the average judge,” Rozak said. “There are, I think, times attorneys have wanted to keep a case with me, but will say ‘My client heard all these stories in the county jail...’ ”
    And guess what? He's a Republican!

    So it seems that the only thing you contributed to this thread that's correct is when you said "Okay, I got it wrong".
    What? This doesn’t prove anything. So what, he’s a Republican? Today there is little difference between Republicans and Democates. Both parties are liberal. George Bush senior was a Republican too and he was about as liberal as you can get. There is a reason Trump was able to get wrestle away the party’s nomination from the Republican establishment. The average Joe had lost faith about in the Republican Party.

    I said I was a conservative. I didn’t say I was a Republican: There is a big difference between a conservative and a Republican.

    Look, this discussion is not about Republican or Democrat, consevative or liberal. It’s about this case. I haven’t spent much time looking into this case. And by the replies I’ve been getting, I can tell nobody else has either. All they did is read one article and run with it.

    The article said the judge threw out the case. The article never said why. Has anybody done any research into this and read the case briefing? I haven’t, and I doubt if anybody else has either. We have no idea why the judge threw out the case. All we have is a bunch of people speculating, me included.

    When I read the article and went back and read several others, there were several things (I’ve already mentioned) that to me indicated these 5 people were probably guilty of the charges. Since the burden of proof is high (and rightfully so) on the state, the case probably wasn’t strong enough to get a conviction.

    Kind of like OJ got free in our courts, but was convicted in civil court since the burden of proof wasn’t so high.

    Look, you guys can believe what you want. I don’t care about this case. My main point is just because some judge threw out a case doesn’t mean the case didn’t have merit or that the defendents weren’t guilty; Just because someone is found not guilty, it doesn’t mean the person is innocent. Again, look at OJ. Our court system found him not guilty, but most people still think he was guilty....that is except the already converted.

    That’s probably the situation with this case. The people who are anti-casino will see it through their rose colored glasses, where they see every casino and police force as evil and trying to stick it to the AP. This article was written to these people.

  19. #79
    Bob21 has a point. If we use common sense and take this to its natural conclusion, based on our limited information, it's pretty clear that the judge was in on it. He probably used his contacts to get info regarding the play, then fed it to his cohorts via a judges' network. Then, when the guys made the money, he made sure they were caught in his jurisdiction, either so he could get a percentage of the seizure or to prevent a guilty plea or both. Since he's retiring, he probably needed the cash. Judges make a lot of money, but he may have had a gambling problem.

    It's all there in black and white if you use common sense. The judge was the ringmaster. Just use your common sense. Why else would he throw out the case?

    After all, nobody ever legally beats the casinos. Right? All of us conservatives know that.

    LOL.

  20. #80
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Bob21 has a point. If we use common sense and take this to its natural conclusion, based on our limited information, it's pretty clear that the judge was in on it. He probably used his contacts to get info regarding the play, then fed it to his cohorts via a judges' network. Then, when the guys made the money, he made sure they were caught in his jurisdiction, either so he could get a percentage of the seizure or to prevent a guilty plea or both. Since he's retiring, he probably needed the cash. Judges make a lot of money, but he may have had a gambling problem.

    It's all there in black and white if you use common sense. The judge was the ringmaster. Just use your common sense. Why else would he throw out the case?

    After all, nobody ever legally beats the casinos. Right? All of us conservatives know that.

    LOL.
    Great post reditez! You’re making my point for me, but I know with some sarcasm thrown in. I like your style!

    What you described is actually more plausible than believing 5 gamblers from Vegas just happened on a huge advantage play in Illinois.

    At any rate, all of it is speculation since no one has spent anytime looking into this case in any detail.

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