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Thread: APs Wrongly Prosecuted - Keno - They're Suing Harrah's

  1. #201
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Well Bob21 that combination of knowing the code to get bigger pays is certainly suspicious but what's the crime? Was the machine tampered with and did they have inside information? Or did they experiment by testing known flaws and discovered one that worked?

    Define the criminal activity.

    Let me tell you about how TV stations in LA have manipulated the Nielsen TV ratings. In the past it was known that Nielsen had more "diaries" and meters in the Long Beach area. So the TV stations increased their news coverage of Long Beach during the ratings period.

    I think what the TV stations did is no different than what these players did. And no one accused the TV stations of committing a crime when they covered more Long Beach news to boost their ratings.
    Excellent point Alan. Note that this case is quite similar to the doubling down IGT VP bug case and that the disposition of the IGT VP case (through the appeal process IIRC) was that the defendants ended up being not guilty of any crime.
    Hey tableplay, there is a big difference in someone being found not guilty and them being innocent. The burden of proof is very high (and rightfully so) on finding someone guilty. This is a pretty complicated concept. It might be over your head.

    There are a lot of people in our country that have being found not guilty of some crime, but, in fact, were still guilty of that crime.

  2. #202
    Just to make sure everybody is clear, these 5 gamblers knew they were winning money on machines that were "malfunctioning"....but you had to know the magic code to make them malfunction. This is what one of the bozos said who got stopped in Arizona for a routine traffic violation.

    When he was questioned at a police headquarters in Flagstaff, AZ, Binning said he "gambled and won on keno machines that were malfunctioning at Harrah's casinos in Joliet, Illinois, and Tunica, Mississippi," according to the filing.

    The whole article is attached: https://patch.com/illinois/joliet/jo...p-court-filing

    What I don't understand is why the judge in this case doesn't make these bozos pay the money back to the casinos. This is what is usually done when a slot machine malfunctions.
    http://https://vegasclick.com/games/slots/malfunctions

  3. #203
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Really funny stuff. An AP "code of ethics"? Hahaha!! If they could keep their lies straight while pontificating on forums, they'd STILL be so full of shit that they wouldn't know whether to put their butts or their faces on toilet seats.

    Even funnier is how people who trigger machines to make higher payouts than they're suppose to because of bugs, are idolized at the "altar of the AP". but when these idols are just too stupid to carry the scam to its fullest--just as in the Kane Video Poker blunder--the AP community is suddenly questioning the true value of its secret handshake.

    And kew....get a real life, will you? You act like this forum nonsense is the end-all. No wonder you're weird.
    Just to be clear, Nestor and Kane were NOT AP's.

    I have no idea what the guys in Illinois could have done differently to keep the play going longer since I wasn't there and don't know all the details. It sounds like they were able to get over 500k from the casinos in a short period of time. That's not easy to keep off the radar. They probably made much more that wasn't accounted for. Obviously they never thought the casinos would conspire with the police off property to get their money. They even rented a different car and stashed 190k in a safe deposit box the the authorities they got that as well.... Lesson learned.

  4. #204
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Hey tableplay, there is a big difference in someone being found not guilty and them being innocent. The burden of proof is very high (and rightfully so) on finding someone guilty. This is a pretty complicated concept. It might be over your head.

    There are a lot of people in our country that have being found not guilty of some crime, but, in fact, were still guilty of that crime.
    I made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.

  5. #205
    Just read these posts between BoBo, Bob21, and KewlJ. Can it get any more ridicules coming here to argue about other forums?

    Dan, please take all this garbage which is no different then trolling posts and dedicate a spot for them. Maybe something like “rejects from other forums trash talk.” After all you’ve done it several times already.

  6. #206
    I see the 2 little hags are up early and whining to Dan what he should do with his forum...BlackPole is just miserable with life so he is understandable...MoMo the Homo is over at a deserted crack house whining (little bitch’s voice) “Oh Dan, ban Kewl J and Keystone and all your problems will go away” Name:  059FB4AE-B2BF-4B56-A614-26F90C144143.gif
Views: 640
Size:  328 Bytes....what a sorry little whiny bitch he is...”oh if you don’t stop, I’ll beat you up”...lololololololololololol....what a sad sack of a supposed man....to quote Mr Hole- You can’t make this shit up

  7. #207
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    Just read these posts between BoBo, Bob21, and KewlJ. Can it get any more ridicules coming here to argue about other forums?

    Dan, please take all this garbage which is no different then trolling posts and dedicate a spot for them. Maybe something like “rejects from other forums trash talk.” After all you’ve done it several times already.
    Agreed! We need our own place to go play in the mud. We shouldn’t pollute this realtive decent discussion on an interesting topic with our meaniless drival about handles.

    This shows how warped people become who’ve been APs too long. Kj and BOBO thought the biggest crime in the world is having a different handle on different forums. BOBO, the clown, took it so far as to attack me on a thread he started on BJTF. He needs help if he thinks anybody but him and KJ care. I don’t even think his idol, Freightman, cares.

  8. #208
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Hey tableplay, there is a big difference in someone being found not guilty and them being innocent. The burden of proof is very high (and rightfully so) on finding someone guilty. This is a pretty complicated concept. It might be over your head.

    There are a lot of people in our country that have being found not guilty of some crime, but, in fact, were still guilty of that crime.
    I made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.
    Point taken. But one could also look at the Phil Ivey edge sorting case and see why the judge could have made these people pay back this money. The judge in the Phil Ivey case basically said Phil had not cheated but he won the money in a way the game was not intended to be played. Phil was basically playing with an unfair advantage. You could argue the same thing with this case. Anybody could win on a keno machine that has malfunctioned and is paying out 5 times what it’s supposed to. Finding these type of opportunities (basically broken machines) is not what APing is about for most people.

  9. #209
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Kj and BOBO thought the biggest crime in the world is having a different handle on different forums.
    Where did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules? What I said was in my experience, few AP's do this and I told you why. So when it was pointed out that you do this, I was not surprised. Despite that you show some interest in blackjack, even before I found out about the multiple handles, I had determined that was basically an act.

    In my opinion, you are one of a number of anti-AP people that now populate this forum. Granted a bit different than most of the other anti-AP guys, who are just bitter, jealous, losing gamblers, where as you are a casino industry supporter/sympathizer. I don't know if you work for a casino, or have a family or friends that do or what your association is, nor do I much care.

    So while you are different than the other "haters", the resulting agenda is the same, to discredit and torment AP's. You don't participate on any forum to try to contribute in a positive manner, you contribute to be negative and disrupt. And that is the definition of a troll. So from this point forward you will get nothing from me (on any forum) except for a return of your negativity.

  10. #210
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Kj and BOBO thought the biggest crime in the world is having a different handle on different forums.
    Where did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules? What I said was in my experience, few AP's do this and I told you why. So when it was pointed out that you do this, I was not surprised. Despite that you show some interest in blackjack, even before I found out about the multiple handles, I had determined that was basically an act.

    In my opinion, you are one of a number of anti-AP people that now populate this forum. Granted a bit different than most of the other anti-AP guys, who are just bitter, jealous, losing gamblers, where as you are a casino industry supporter/sympathizer. I don't know if you work for a casino, or have a family or friends that do or what your association is, nor do I much care.

    So while you are different than the other "haters", the resulting agenda is the same, to discredit and torment AP's. You don't participate on any forum to try to contribute in a positive manner, you contribute to be negative and disrupt. And that is the definition of a troll. So from this point forward you will get nothing from me (on any forum) except for a return of your negativity.
    Please say it isn’t so Kj. How will I get through life if I get “nothing” from you. Lol. You have been my inspiration!

    As far as me being different, you’re probaly right. I’m an independent thinker, and don’t pick sides. I’ve had my quarrels with blackhole, but lately I’d have to say I agree with most of what he says, including ridiculing the mindless posts between you, Bobo and me. Even keystone has become one my favorite posters. He always has me laughing. Good stuff there.

    Btw, you need to check out some my early posts on BJTF. I had some good debates with several APs, including Don S, on different counts, and the casino experience in general. Freightman even commented he’d never seen someone get so many helpfuls as a newbie poster. Obviously, people turned on me when I defended caisnos against some of the stupid comments they were making. Most APs don’t know that the casinos main objective is not to see how much an APs can take from them. That’s a joke. Btw, most APs don’t have much of a sense of humor either. They can’t spot sacrasim.

    As far as our disagreements. They have only been over two topics: 1) mindplay and 2) beast mode. Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone can think different than you on some topic?

    Yes, I’m a part time recreational AP, but I still get things from the casino prespective. And I know this is rare for an AP. When I see these young counters come through my local casinos, they do kind of piss me off. I’ve seen more and more of them lately.

    They are the true definition of a parasite. They come in to “take” without contributing anything. For example, recently one came though and won $8,000 at bj before they were finally backed off, probably 86d. He played with 3 different dealers and didn’t tip any of them even one dollar. How do I know, because I was there and they told me. It shocked them that someone could be that callous, winning that much money and not leave even a one dollar tip to a waitress or dealer. I expect this guy later bragged to all his AP friends how he took this casino for so much money while leaving no tip.

    So no, I don’t have much respect for this type of AP? I will always defend the casino here. All APs are not the same though. I’ve met some very good compassionate ones, and shared phone numbers with them. I actually have an AP friend from Vegas who comes to my area about once every two months.

    So kJ, back to your threat about no longer responding to my posts, except in a negative way. That’s your call. But I won’t be doing the the same with you. That’s not how I’m wired. When I see you say something that makes sense, I’ll agree with you, and probably comment favorably. And when I see you say something that makes no sense, like beast mode, I’ll probably ridicule you. Btw, I was not the only AP that did this when you went on your beast mode rant.

    I do hope that someday you can grow up and accept that people are different and everybody doesn’t think the same way. I wish you - and BOBO- the best. See I have no ill will towards BOBO, even though he went on BJTF just to attack me. I forgive my attackers. I just want us to all get along as one big happy family! Lol . Btw, I don’t really believe that. If that happened, these forums wouldn’t be any fun.

  11. #211
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    Hey tableplay, there is a big difference in someone being found not guilty and them being innocent. The burden of proof is very high (and rightfully so) on finding someone guilty. This is a pretty complicated concept. It might be over your head.

    There are a lot of people in our country that have being found not guilty of some crime, but, in fact, were still guilty of that crime.
    I made no comments whatsoever about the difference of being found not guilty and being innocent (way to go bringing up a point I never made and then arguing about how it is wrong - the term for this is a Straw Man argument). I made a comment that the Keno and IGT doubling bug situations were similar, and that it is no surprise then (because of that similarity - no tampering, just a sequence of button pushes), that the outcomes (not guilty) were similar.
    Point taken. But one could also look at the Phil Ivey edge sorting case and see why the judge could have made these people pay back this money. The judge in the Phil Ivey case basically said Phil had not cheated but he won the money in a way the game was not intended to be played. Phil was basically playing with an unfair advantage. You could argue the same thing with this case. Anybody could win on a keno machine that has malfunctioned and is paying out 5 times what it’s supposed to. Finding these type of opportunities (basically broken machines) is not what APing is about for most people.
    I see, so Phil was playing machine baccarat and pressing a certain button combination (which was the similarity I was referring to) to get wins and then was ruled against in a court of law ?

  12. #212
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Where did I say it was a crime or even against any forum rules?
    Bob likes to use Straw Men and then argue against them - he seems to think people here have shoe size IQs.

  13. #213
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Just to be clear, Nestor and Kane were NOT AP's.
    Really? Seemed like they had an advantage to me

  14. #214
    Fraud (bob) 21, every single positions that you take just happens to be the position that the casino industry would take. I wonder why that is?

    Tipping: It is always the casino dealer that are the biggest crybaby's about tipping. Let me tell you something, a dealer in a casino is NOT a service type job like a waiter or bartender, despite that Dealers have decided they are entitled to a percentage of a players winnings. Dealer is a low skill job. And that is how they should be paid. It is beyond me why a dealer thinks they are entitled to a percentage of winnings from a player? Hey is the cashier/ticket person at the sportsbook entitled to a percentage of winning sports wager bets? When people go to the horse race track do you tip the guy that punches out your ticket? How many players tip their bookie when they have a winning week?

    These jobs at the casino are simply low level, low skill jobs that can and are being replaced by technology. Hey do people playing those big screen video blackjack games tip the dealer?

    If dealers aren't happy with their pay scale they should talk to their employer. Those billionaires are the ones responsible for paying their employees a decent wage. What a scam it is, by who ever came up with that the players should make up the difference in the low pay because the casino owners don't. Complete bullshit!

    Next...The young player that won $8000 and didn't tip. Where you watching this guy for days weeks? (if so how is that.....oh yeah because you were the dealer} Or was this one day, one session? If he won that kind of money in one session, the majority of that $8000 win was variance. Only a small portion was EV. Now if AP's are going to tip, and there really is no reason to, they should tip a small portion of EV, not the total win. Otherwise, they have lost money on that play. But again, there is no requirement or even reason to tip. That is bullshit that dealers unhappy with there pay came up with. "Winning players should give up a percentage of their win". What bullshit! The players put up all the risk, yet the dealer wants a percentage of the win. Talk about entitlement.

    Next: you repeating the stupid and false old argument that AP's contribute nothing. Every dollar we spend contributes to the economy and helps keep people employed, whether it is the food we buy at the grocery store, the gas we put in our car, eating at restaurants. Everything! This isn't a thousand years ago, when everyone "made" something....the butcher, the candlestick maker. Today's economy is mostly fueled by spending. And as long as the money is earned legally, the spender is contributing to the economy and helping to keep people working. You can even argue that illegal money earned does the same, but I don't want to go there. In the last 9 months, I have sold and then purchase a home for hundreds of thousands of dollars, creating a pretty nice payday for 2 different realtors. I'll bet they don't think I contribute nothing.

    Next: "you have differed with me on two points mindplay and beast mode". I don't care for that term beast mode, but I will allow it. Both these issues are issues of casino cheating, one (mindplay) ruled against by the casino commission, who rarely breaks with the casino industry. That's how blatant it was!

    The second (ASM cheating) would be ruled against if a case ever got to the commission or courts. I simply wasn't willing to bring that case, as it would have been detrimental to my career at this point in time. So I brought it to light for players to look at and decide for themselves. Both AP's and non-AP's because it was/is not only AP's that were being cheated. Non-AP's who had no clue about any of it were also being cheated.

    And let's talk about what occurred in the aftermath. The casino that I named by name, immediately pulled the 2 ASM's in question. Why would they do that?

    AND, although I have never mentioned this and will get flack for doing so now, you know what happened to the ASM, that I acquired? After I learned what I could and confirmed my suspicions, I resold it. To whom? To probably the top table game AP alive to today. The guy who literally wrote "the book" about table game advantage play. He confirmed my finding and then guess what he did? Learned what he could (which was a lot more than what I could) and then used that to exploit machines all over the world. He didn't file a lawsuit either. He didn't go to gaming. He didn't even warn other players AP and non-AP's . He just used the knowledge to enrich himself. I guess I am not going to fault him for that. He IS an advantage player and maybe the top AP, certainly the one of the top table game AP. But at least I warned others (and received all kinds of shit for it).

    But it's funny every fucking issue, you have come down on the side of the casino industry. I wonder why that is? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a fucking duck.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 03-14-2019 at 11:54 AM.

  15. #215
    Let me expand on that young player that won $8000 and didn't tip, that you pegged as a card counter. So you saw him win $8000 and not tip? You have no idea how is running as a total. Maybe he lost 20 grand the previous couple days and is still digging out of a hole.

    Remember that 29k losing week I had last fall, that people like your buddy Moses, who have proven they have no understanding of what variance is, keeps harping on? (and embarrassing himself as far as blackjack knowledge about a basic concept like variance).

    So let's go back to that week. I lost 29k. So the following Monday, suppose I won $5000. Am I supposed to tip the dealer a few hundred. I only make $300 a day or so in EV. If I am tipping several hundred, I am tipping all my profit.

    You have no fucking clue what that young card counters situation was, nor any right to sit in judgement of him, because as a dealer think you are "entitled" to a share of his profit, despite that fact that he put up all the risk. You dealt the cards like a monkey could do. You fucking moron! If you don't like your job find a different one, but don't expect people to hand you money like some sort of beggar on the street corner.

  16. #216
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Fraud (bob) 21, every single positions that you take just happens to be the position that the casino industry would take. I wonder why that is?

    Tipping: It is always the casino dealer that are the biggest crybaby's about tipping. Let me tell you something, a dealer in a casino is NOT a service type job like a waiter or bartender, despite that Dealers have decided they are entitled to a percentage of a players winnings. Dealer is a low skill job. And that is how they should be paid. It is beyond me why a dealer thinks they are entitled to a percentage of winnings from a player? Hey is the cashier/ticket person at the sportsbook entitled to a percentage of winning sports wager bets? When people go to the horse race track do you tip the guy that punches out your ticket? How many players tip their bookie when they have a winning week?

    These jobs at the casino are simply low level, low skill jobs that can and are being replaced by technology. Hey do people playing those big screen video blackjack games tip the dealer?

    If dealers aren't happy with their pay scale they should talk to their employer. Those billionaires are the ones responsible for paying their employees a decent wage. What a scam it is, by who ever came up with that the players should make up the difference in the low pay because the casino owners don't. Complete bullshit!

    Next...The young player that won $8000 and didn't tip. Where you watching this guy for days weeks? (if so how is that.....oh yeah because you were the dealer} Or was this one day, one session? If he won that kind of money in one session, the majority of that $8000 win was variance. Only a small portion was EV. Now if AP's are going to tip, and there really is no reason to, they should tip a small portion of EV, not the total win. Otherwise, they have lost money on that play. But again, there is no requirement or even reason to tip. That is bullshit that dealers unhappy with there pay came up with. "Winning players should give up a percentage of their win". What bullshit! The players put up all the risk, yet the dealer wants a percentage of the win. Talk about entitlement.

    Next: you repeating the stupid and false old argument that AP's contribute nothing. Every dollar we spend contributes to the economy and helps keep people employed, whether it is the food we buy at the grocery store, the gas we put in our car, eating at restaurants. Everything! This isn't a thousand years ago, when everyone "made" something....the butcher, the candlestick maker. Today's economy is mostly fueled by spending. And as long as the money is earned legally, the spender is contributing to the economy and helping to keep people working. You can even argue that illegal money earned does the same, but I don't want to go there. In the last 9 months, I have sold and then purchase a home for hundreds of thousands of dollars, creating a pretty nice payday for 2 different realtors. I'll bet they don't think I contribute nothing.

    Next: "you have differed with me on two points mindplay and beast mode". I don't care for that term beast mode, but I will allow it. Both these issues are issues of casino cheating, one (mindplay) ruled against by the casino commission, who rarely breaks with the casino industry. That's how blatant it was!

    The second (ASM cheating) would be ruled against if a case ever got to the commission or courts. I simply wasn't willing to bring that case, as it would have been detrimental to my career at this point in time. So I brought it to light for players to look at and decide for themselves. Both AP's and non-AP's because it was/is not only AP's that were being cheated. Non-AP's who had no clue about any of it were also being cheated.

    And let's talk about what occurred in the aftermath. The casino that I named by name, immediately pulled the 2 ASM's in question. Why would they do that?

    AND, although I have never mentioned this and will get flack for doing so now, you know what happened to the ASM, that I acquired? After I learned what I could and confirmed my suspicions, I resold it. To whom? To probably the top table game AP alive to today. The guy who literally wrote "the book" about table game advantage play. He confirmed my finding and then guess what he did? Learned what he could (which was a lot more than what I could) and then used that to exploit machines all over the world. He didn't file a lawsuit either. He didn't go to gaming. He didn't even warn other players AP and non-AP's . He just used the knowledge to enrich himself. I guess I am not going to fault him for that. He IS an advantage player and maybe the top AP, certainly the one of the top table game AP. But at least I warned others (and received all kinds of shit for it).

    But it's funny every fucking issue, you have come down on the side of the casino industry. I wonder why that is? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a fucking duck.
    Hey, I learned something new today. I’m a duck. Who would have thunk it? Thank you Kj! I wouldn’t have known this without you pointing it out.

  17. #217
    Originally Posted by pepe View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Just to be clear, Nestor and Kane were NOT AP's.
    Really? Seemed like they had an advantage to me
    I'm glad pepe questioned this comment because I was wondering what Axel meant?

    Were they not APs because they didn't join the official club and lacked a membership card and secret decoder ring?

    What exactly qualifies you as an AP besides playing with an advantage?

    Is it perhaps that true APs are limited to only vulturing nickel Ultimate X machines with abandoned multipliers of 2X ?

    Or must you have a certain number of anti casino posts to qualify which seems to be why a current forum member is under attack... he doesn't appear to attack casinos enough.

    Pray tell, what makes one an AP?

  18. #218
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Pray tell, what makes one an AP?
    Not surprised you don't know.

    I'll tell you this much. Winning 6 figure jackpots and still having a losing year almost assuredly disqualifies one from the AP club. But it may qualify you for president of the degenerative gamblers club.

    And having family members come to the forum and state in great detail how a person can't pay their financial obligations because of their gambling "problem", and how they are broke for 27 days a month and how their gambling addiction has effected relationships with their children and grandchildren most assuredly qualifies one for the degenerative gamblers club, while at the same time dis-qualifies one from the AP club.

    So at least you are in good standing in one club, Mr. Son of a shyster.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 03-14-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  19. #219
    Kewlj, you continue to say that I had a losing year. But you don't know that.

    As I said many times on this forum, why would anyone who posts using their real name report that they had a profit?

    And yes my father was a mob lawyer. Let me repeat that: my father was a mob lawyer. And he never cheated his clients. He was a good lawyer. And by the way, from time to time I run into some of his friends and sons of his friends.

  20. #220
    It may seem a cheap shot for me bring up Alan's obvious gambling addiction issues. I really get no enjoyment in that fact that Alan or anyone has gambling addiction issues.

    But at the same time I am sick of these guys, these AP haters (for a variety of reasons) who 'vilify' AP's, simply because we choose to play a winning game and win some money from the casinos. Why is thinking and using mathematics to legally gain an advantage such a bad thing?

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