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Thread: Infor just for you bob21

  1. #21
    I think I should clarify that I don't view casino personnel as the enemy. I don't draw those lines. I have two friends, one a very close friend that work as pit personnel here in Vegas.

    But I do draw that line with people that come to these forums with a pro-casino industry, anti-AP agenda.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Listen, lady, you are not exactly a genius in selecting meaningful men in your life.
    So now you're going to sit in judgment of me and my life? Well, bris on you pother, you ain't so muckin fuch.

    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    To answer your question I do not like reading all the hate here and the ZenZone..
    Well DUH! Then DON'T READ IT.

    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    I hope everyone is not competing with each other here? That should not be our objectives. If the hate does not stop, sorry, if you do not see me continue fighting the battle. Moses, labled me right in that he thinks I did not sign up this shit.
    Then make like a tree and leaf. No one will even know you're gone.

    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    But I do draw that line with people that come to these forums with a pro-casino industry, anti-AP agenda.
    By all means, tell them everything. That should fix their little red wagons.
    Last edited by UCFX; 03-24-2019 at 10:18 AM.

  3. #23
    Moses wrote today at ZZ.

    "Bob, Bob, BOB. No I do not think someone was ever backed off just for not tipping. However, the old saying, "what goes around, comes around." I believe opinions are solicited and if one is treating the staff like shit and taking advantage of their good nature, they will be backed off far faster than those who are playing nice. Point being, assholes can run off good customers. Nice players can get them to contribute more. If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game. The game of people played with cards should include tipping. Sort of like tithing in life. The forum AP world clearly plays a game of cards played by people. So they are always getting backed off, flipped off, spit at, and cussed at."


    Mo, Mo, Mo it is quotes like the above that it is good that you are not on any regular blackjack boards. Others should know that you are talking about single deck bjackjack. Which requires a lot of real coperation with the dealer who is holding the cards in their hand. You need the dealer to work with you, and if they do, he/she absolutely expects to be rewarded. Working hand in hand up to a point. The dealer can make a single deck game playable or NOT. Many, many of those options single deck dealers have, are completely closed off to shoe game dealers by strick house procedures. You already know all of this but, always pretend you are playing the same game that everyone else is playing which it is not.
    Last edited by BoSox; 03-24-2019 at 03:59 PM.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Moses wrote today at ZZ.

    "Bob, Bob, BOB. No I do not think someone was ever backed off just for not tipping. However, the old saying, "what goes around, comes around." I believe opinions are solicited and if one is treating the staff like shit and taking advantage of their good nature, they will be backed off far faster than those who are playing nice. Point being, assholes can run off good customers. Nice players can get them to contribute more. If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game. The game of people played with cards should include tipping. Sort of like tithing in life. The forum AP world clearly plays a game of cards played by people. So they are always getting backed off, flipped off, spit at, and cussed at."


    Mo, Mo, Mo it is quotes like the above that it is good that you are not on any regular blackjack boards. Others should know that you are talking about single deck bjackjack. Which requires a lot of real coperation with the dealer who is holding the cards in his hand. You need the dealer to work with you, and if they do, he/she absolutely expects to be rewarded. Working hand in hand up to a point. The dealer can make a single deck game playable or NOT. Many, many of those options single deck dealers have, are completely closed off to shoe game dealers by strick house procedures. You already know all of this but, always pretend you are playing the same game that everyone else is playing which it is not.
    I have stopped reading the character at ZZ, as I am just tired of dealing with the insanity. And as such I am unwilling to engage in any kind of discussion here with one of the other colorful personalities of his mind, like a UCFX. So all I have to go on is your quote Bosox, of which I have 2 comments.

    1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits.

    2.) The tipping that you (Bosox) described in your final paragraph, in reference to single deck, is in my opinion bordering on collusion and cheating. If it is with the understanding (even if unspoken) that your tip is getting you something that otherwise wouldn't be offered....that is collusion and cheating! Be hard to prove as far as criminal but that doesn't make it any less so.

    This occurs in shoe games as well. Even when a notch is used for penetration, as it is in many shoe games, the dealer still has some discretion and there are things he can do, ways of holding the cards up against the shoe, that will allow that notch to line up deeper into the pack. So it is not limited to hand held games, although that is easier.

    And while people will say that kind of unspoken thing, tips for deeper penetration has been occurring for decades, the question is what is next. If you are tipping handsomely, to what extent will the dealer go to? All of the sudden a few mistakes....a loss becomes a push, or you get paid on a push? It is a very slippery slope. So slippery in fact, that in my opinion, the casino industry shouldn't even allow tipping, thus eliminating that possibility of collusion.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits.
    Let me expand on this point just a bit in reference to a card counter in 2019 era.

    For a shoe game my EV is just about $1 a round. A little more for deeper than normal penetration and about $1.50/round for games that I track a second table (whether I jump or not). But for the sake of this discussion, let's just go with a very typical 6 deck game, where I am only tracking one table. Very average penetration of 75%. Really standard mediocre game, found in Vegas and many locations.

    So I sit down with 2 other players. This means on average just over 11 cards will be dealt per round (2.75 per player and dealer per round) so with the cut coming at 230 cards in, I am looking at 21 rounds.

    So the count goes positive early and hits my max bet trigger about 2 decks in. This means I will have 10 or 11 rounds at Max bet. A nice situation. So let's say I am extremely fortunate, win a majority of these max bet opportunities and end up $2000 ahead at the shuffle. Now since I have shown my max bet, that shuffle point is my exit trigger. I am not going to play anymore at this table (probably not this casino) having shown my bet spread.

    So I am leaving up $2000 after 21 rounds. So what is an appropriate tip? From the dealers perspective probably at least a green chip, maybe 2. Problem is my expected value, or expected win for those 21 rounds was $21. So a tip of $25 turns a +EV play into a negative EV play. If I tip at that rate every day, I am guaranteed to lose money by the end of the year, tipping away more than I earned.

    So what about a red chip ($5). That would be 25% of my expected value. That is still a lot of expected value to tip away, but suppose I did. I can guarantee, a $5 tip in that situation would be looked down on, maybe even worse than no tip...right dealer? (Bob21??)

    Second issue is why am I tipping as I am leaving? What does that do for me?

    Lastly, suppose I don't want to tip when leaving because I see no benefit. The alternative is to tip a few hands for the dealer as you are playing, so he is playing along with you. Again what is the appropriate amount? I am going to tip 2-3 hands of $5 of this 21 round play that is worth $21 to me? Again, THAT is tipping away most of my expected value or expected win. God forbid, I tip a few white ($1 chips) on hands that I am max betting, say $400. Again, this just isn't appreciated at all. even looked down on as worse than not tipping.

    The bottom line is tips have to be a portion (very small portion) of "expected win" otherwise, you are tipping away all your profits and no dealer can understand that because 99% have no clue about EV.

    So it is a no win situation in 2019 for a card counter. I mean maybe if we could roll back the clock, 30 years to when players sat at one table and played for 3-4 hours that would be different. Under that circumstance, with the game mentioned, I would accumulate probably $75, $80 an hour maybe $100, if the dealer was fast enough. In 3-4 hours, I would have $300-$400 in EV and could afford to tip $25 or $50. But this is 2019 and for a card counter that means short hit and run style, short sessions, and tipping isn't conducive with this style. It really isn't.

  6. #26
    Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
    Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
    Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.
    Ok, well I am not going to further discuss anything to do with Moses. He has lost that privilege concerning me, much the same as Singer has. I mean anyone who's only response to someone that has a different opinion or questions things they do or say, is to go on personal attacks about someone's sexuality, race, nationality, is someone who doesn't exist as far as I am concerned.

    I thank you for your compliment on my post. The tipping issue is one of those issue that players have strong opinions about. There really is no right or wrong answer. But I think it is important to understand the math and the basic math about card counting is that in 2019, with worse conditions than just 20 years ago, most card counters are playing to less than a 1% edge. Every little thing, tipping, cover plays, sub-optimal betting, playing through negative rounds, cuts into that already razor thin edge. And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day.

    Like I said, unless the dealer is really giving you something special for that tip, like much deeper penetration, I don't see it and frankly, that borders on collusion to me. It isn't how I want to win.

    So having explained the math, let's look at a different angle. A lot of machine players, especially the grinders playing slightly +EV VP plays are also playing to a very small 1%(ish) edge. Do you see a lot of them tipping part of that razor thin 1% edge. I'm not talking about handpays, which the casino industry has guilted the players into believing they need to tip. I am talking about are machine players tipping a quarter or half percent of all their total action? Hey let's ask mickeycrimm: Mickey are you tipping part of your total action? Of course not! And that is the equivalent of what we are talking about here.

  8. #28
    You two goofballs have been writing about someone who was banned on February 22. Get over it.

    Moses was banned. THE END

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day.
    Correction: I should have wrote 25% of EV or .25% of total action. Gosh I hate the short edit time on this site.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by UCFX View Post
    You two goofballs have been writing about someone who was banned on February 22. Get over it.

    Moses was banned. THE END

    Moses was banned? Someone should tell him. He is still being read all through cyberspace. He is sort of a cross between a modern day Tokyo Rose and Wolfman Jack.

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    So in catching up with some forum reading, including forums I now only occasionally read, I was reading the thread where the member known as Zee on several BJ forums, was banned from Colin's blackjack apprentice forum. Since BJA is a paid membership, Colin refunded Zee's membership.

    I have a point to make concerning a member here, but before I do, I want to stray just a bit and say, I am not a huge fan of Colin or the BJ apprentice guys, not the guys personally, but the concept. I have no problem with former or active players writing books, but I don't think we need to be "recruiting" new players (competition). It is one thing to advise and share experiences with enthusiasts who have found this community, but the concept of "recruiting" and a "boot camp" churning out new players is not good for any of us active players. I have never not once visited the site, nor participated because of my views.

    Ok, now back to my point. In reading that this Zee person was banned at BJ apprentice it was discussed that he becomes the second person ever banned at BJA. I mean this is a money-making proposition that makes money off memberships, so it goes without saying it becomes pretty hard to get banned and have them refuse your money.

    So who was the other person banned at this forum/money making/recruiting group? Why our very own Bob21, posting under whatever name he used there. So why was 'our' Bob21 banned at BJ apprentice? Repeated views supporting the casino industry. NO surprise! Same exact M.O. as here and everywhere else he has participated. Bob21 is a casino industry supporter. Likely works for a casino or has family or friends that do. And as such has anti-AP views and positions, despite his claims that he is a recreational card counter. This claim is likely cover for his positions and views.

    Now it is OK, for Casino personnel to participate on these forums. Some do so openly as a couple at WoV do. I respect that, even though I rarely agree with anything they post or support. Many more casino personnel and/or supporters participate less openly, as Bob21 does. There have been such members at every forum I have ever participated at. I just want to make it known who Bob21 is, and to have people take that into consideration when reading anything he posts. He is a casino guy with an agenda on these forums. Period!
    Hey Kj, great post! I thought one of your better ones. You kinda made me feel special when you said “our very own Bob21”. Even though I’m on several forums (256 to be exact), I do kind of feel like this is my home base, since I like the way this forum is run. It’s by far the best one out there.

    I was surprised the way this whole thing blew up on BJTF. Who knew it’d be just a select few, Zee and me, banned from BJA. It’s quite an honor that I don’t take lightly. How many APs do you think have got banned for being pro-tipping? I’ll bet I’m the first one. Only in the AP world. Got to love it. Lolo

    I thought you brought up some good points about the difference between most Gambling sites and BJA. BJA actively recruits new players, which we all know is bad for all of us. I never quite thought about it the way you put it, but it makes sense.

    This is why I’ve always thought parasite best describes what an AP does. I know it’s not a popular description, but I think it’s an accurate one. What is a parasite? It’s an organism that lives off its host. The host has to be healthy, or the parasite can’t survive. Too many parasites on a host and both the host and parasite die. A host can only support so many parasites, before it dies or finds a way to remove them.

    While we all fantasize about winning so much money we “bring down the house”, in reality, we don’t want this to happen. If this happened, we wouldn’t have anywhere to go to make money. We need casinos to be healthy, so we can be healthy.

    As you’ve stated, this is why it’s in all of our interest to not try to grow the number of APs. It doesn’t benift anybody (casino or AP), to have more parasites (I mean more APs) extracting money from a casino.

    Anyway, just something to think about.
    Last edited by Bob21; 03-25-2019 at 07:57 AM.

  12. #32
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    1.) "If you have to consider your tip amount in EV, you do not have game." Any guesses as to what this means? Any AP who does decide to tip had better be tipping based on EV and not win. Any AP not doing it in this matter is likely over-tipping and may just be tipping away all his profits.
    Let me expand on this point just a bit in reference to a card counter in 2019 era.

    For a shoe game my EV is just about $1 a round. A little more for deeper than normal penetration and about $1.50/round for games that I track a second table (whether I jump or not). But for the sake of this discussion, let's just go with a very typical 6 deck game, where I am only tracking one table. Very average penetration of 75%. Really standard mediocre game, found in Vegas and many locations.

    So I sit down with 2 other players. This means on average just over 11 cards will be dealt per round (2.75 per player and dealer per round) so with the cut coming at 230 cards in, I am looking at 21 rounds.

    So the count goes positive early and hits my max bet trigger about 2 decks in. This means I will have 10 or 11 rounds at Max bet. A nice situation. So let's say I am extremely fortunate, win a majority of these max bet opportunities and end up $2000 ahead at the shuffle. Now since I have shown my max bet, that shuffle point is my exit trigger. I am not going to play anymore at this table (probably not this casino) having shown my bet spread.

    So I am leaving up $2000 after 21 rounds. So what is an appropriate tip? From the dealers perspective probably at least a green chip, maybe 2. Problem is my expected value, or expected win for those 21 rounds was $21. So a tip of $25 turns a +EV play into a negative EV play. If I tip at that rate every day, I am guaranteed to lose money by the end of the year, tipping away more than I earned.

    So what about a red chip ($5). That would be 25% of my expected value. That is still a lot of expected value to tip away, but suppose I did. I can guarantee, a $5 tip in that situation would be looked down on, maybe even worse than no tip...right dealer? (Bob21??)

    Second issue is why am I tipping as I am leaving? What does that do for me?

    Lastly, suppose I don't want to tip when leaving because I see no benefit. The alternative is to tip a few hands for the dealer as you are playing, so he is playing along with you. Again what is the appropriate amount? I am going to tip 2-3 hands of $5 of this 21 round play that is worth $21 to me? Again, THAT is tipping away most of my expected value or expected win. God forbid, I tip a few white ($1 chips) on hands that I am max betting, say $400. Again, this just isn't appreciated at all. even looked down on as worse than not tipping.

    The bottom line is tips have to be a portion (very small portion) of "expected win" otherwise, you are tipping away all your profits and no dealer can understand that because 99% have no clue about EV.

    So it is a no win situation in 2019 for a card counter. I mean maybe if we could roll back the clock, 30 years to when players sat at one table and played for 3-4 hours that would be different. Under that circumstance, with the game mentioned, I would accumulate probably $75, $80 an hour maybe $100, if the dealer was fast enough. In 3-4 hours, I would have $300-$400 in EV and could afford to tip $25 or $50. But this is 2019 and for a card counter that means short hit and run style, short sessions, and tipping isn't conducive with this style. It really isn't.
    Okay Kj, Iím finally getting around to answering this thread. About tipping, hereís what canít be menasured by the CVCX data and what you guys donít get that only think in terms of EV. Tipping is also for longevity and to keep your local casinos viable. Read Stealthís post on tipping on the thread about Zee and me getting banned from blackjack apprenticeship. I thought it was excellent!

    I was going to comment on it, but Norm shut down the thread. Donít know why because it was going good and generated a lot of interest. It had over 2,000 views in less than a week. Shows people were interested. Probably because Zee and I have become somewhat celebrities in the AP world. Lol.

    As Stealth said, tipping depends on a lot of factors. There are no absolutes. When I lived on the east coast and played at MS and Foxwoods, I didnít tip much. I also didnít play much since I hated the games there. I have played in Atlantic City when I lived in Baltimore and also didn't tip much. These are big impersonal casinos where tipping wonít get you much.

    But in a small rural area where everybody knows you, tipping gets you a lot. I doubt if Iíd still be alive in my local casinos if I didnít tip. This weekend I stayed at a casino and got comped for three nights room and food. This was worth at least $500. I would have never got this if the whole casinos staff (pit bosses, waitresses, dealers and hostess) didnít like me. Even when theyíre booked, they usually find a way to get me in, and itís always comped. I know they have a couple rooms saved for their spur of the moment high rollers, and guys like me they like.

    So yes, the casinos have been very very good to me! But you have to treat them with respect. Itís called the ďgolden ruleĒ. Treat others like youíd like to treated. I donít know if youíve heard this before, but if you havenít itíd be good for you to put it up somewhere in your house.

    If I had to pay for my room and board in that area, Iíd have been out a lot. So you bet you I tip. Iím not going to do some stupid CVCX sims to see how it impacts my overall EV. I could tip $500 (which I didnít come close to), and Iíd still be way ahead.

    So when it comes to tipping, as for me and grandpa, we believe!

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Kewl J, I am aware of what you are talking about and I could not agree more. I do need to compliment you on a really good post.
    Moses, should not be trying to compare what he does with a shoe game, it really is completely different. I think he understands perfectly what needs to be done for him to be allowed to continue playing. Sort of a set of unwritten rules he has adapted to, and learned through a lot of experience. Either play by their rules or be removed from his seat.
    Ok, well I am not going to further discuss anything to do with Moses. He has lost that privilege concerning me, much the same as Singer has. I mean anyone who's only response to someone that has a different opinion or questions things they do or say, is to go on personal attacks about someone's sexuality, race, nationality, is someone who doesn't exist as far as I am concerned.

    I thank you for your compliment on my post. The tipping issue is one of those issue that players have strong opinions about. There really is no right or wrong answer. But I think it is important to understand the math and the basic math about card counting is that in 2019, with worse conditions than just 20 years ago, most card counters are playing to less than a 1% edge. Every little thing, tipping, cover plays, sub-optimal betting, playing through negative rounds, cuts into that already razor thin edge. And in the case of tipping, unless you are tipping like .25% of EV (or less), you are really giving away too much. And for what? Oh and one other thing....tipping adds to the variance that a card counter fights with every day.

    Like I said, unless the dealer is really giving you something special for that tip, like much deeper penetration, I don't see it and frankly, that borders on collusion to me. It isn't how I want to win.

    So having explained the math, let's look at a different angle. A lot of machine players, especially the grinders playing slightly +EV VP plays are also playing to a very small 1%(ish) edge. Do you see a lot of them tipping part of that razor thin 1% edge. I'm not talking about handpays, which the casino industry has guilted the players into believing they need to tip. I am talking about are machine players tipping a quarter or half percent of all their total action? Hey let's ask mickeycrimm: Mickey are you tipping part of your total action? Of course not! And that is the equivalent of what we are talking about here.
    Jean Scott set the standard for video poker years ago. $10 on a 1K royal and $20 on a 4K royal. As percentage of action it's between one one-thousandth and two one-thousanths.

    As far as vulturing short term plays on video line games go there is pretty much no tipping, 5K and 10K must hits excluded. I generally put a hundred in on the first play then use the ticket cruising from machine to machine. When I'm though I hit the cashout kiosk. I never tip the kiosks. LOL!

    Montana is a different story. It's money in ticket out and the ticket won't go in another machine. So I'm in a spot where I might have to make several cashouts while I'm there. You have to cash the tickets with the attendents. The thing about the short term advantages is win, lose or draw you always cash out a ticket. I quit the game when it's no longer in advantage mode. There's no such thing as losing all your credits then getting up and leaving. If it was a play when I sat down on it it's a play until it's no longer in advantage mode.

    If I sit down on a game where 5 of the steps to get the bonus is already completed, it's at a 20% advantage, and the theoretical is a $50 earn, and I get stretched out to where I'm stuck $100 or $150, but I've completed 3 more steps to get the bonus, and now the theoretical from that point is 160%....there is no way in hell I'm going anywhere. What am I supposed to do, walk off from a 160% play and go find another 120% play. Doesn't make sense. About 80% of the plays are winners. The 20% losers is the cost of doing business.

    With that said, I'm cashing out all the time and the attendent is looking for a tip. I have to cut them off at the pass. These are small intimate casinos, just 20 machines so the attendents are always right on the top of me asking if I want more coffee or change. So when he/she comes around I'll say something like "This machine is a pig! I'm already stuck $200." I'm setting them up for no tip. I don't tip on losing plays.

    If I go $400 in and cash out a $300 ticket I'll say something like " I went $400 in on that machine and it finally gave me most of my money back." They get no tip.

    If I go in $400 and cash out a $430 ticket I'll say "I sucked out for a $30 win." They get no tip.

    I only tip on a decent sized win. And no more than $5.
    Luck is probability taken personally.

  14. #34
    My last few hand pays with my typical $20 tip seemed to garner nothing but resentment. Not even a thank you. I had a 10k jackpot that the attendant literally huffed as she was walking away with her boss and my $20.
    I keep saying that I will not tip at all anymore unless a play requires it. I still tip and not sure why. I know a girl who works in a bar and she literally believes people are supposed to tip 10% of their jackpot. Reason being is most of her customers do.

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