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Thread: Tipping

  1. #1
    It's interesting to see that one thread is having a side discussion about tipping. I think it would be better as its own thread.

    Curiously, many of you seem to agree with Rob Singer about no tipping.

    Several years ago I wrote an article about tipping and my thought was there is no rule about tipping and it's a personal decision.

    But if you're not getting the equivalent of a W2G win why would you even think about tipping?

    My article:

    http://www.alanbestbuys.com/id432.html

  2. #2
    I don't tip $1000 hand pays. Casinos have no business hand paying 25 cent $1000 royal flushes.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    It's interesting to see that one thread is having a side discussion about tipping. I think it would be better as its own thread.

    Curiously, many of you seem to agree with Rob Singer about no tipping.

    Several years ago I wrote an article about tipping and my thought was there is no rule about tipping and it's a personal decision.

    But if you're not getting the equivalent of a W2G win why would you even think about tipping?

    My article:

    http://www.alanworstbuysever.com/id432.html
    "There are also casino players who call themselves "advantage players" and they say they only gamble with an advantage which means an edge over the casino's odds. Many "advantage players" will not tip dealers or slot personnel who pay jackpots because these "APs" as they call themselves say tips cut into their edge over the casino."

    Other than AP's you claim to know or talk to, what slot AP's claim not to tip. I would say a majority machine pros tip. I don't know any slot pros who don't tip. Many of them actually over tip what they should be tipping. They may not be tipping because they they love helping out the employees but that's besides the point. Most BJ AP's that I know tip as well. Most poker players I know tip as well. I would say the BJ players tip the least out of that group followed by poker players.

    I dislike anyone that never tips, and I dislike people who tell me how much I should tip.

  4. #4
    Our get-ready is just about done so I have some time to educate you folks on casino tipping before we leave on the 1st.

    Few if any players will admit to it, but the main reason any of you "tip" hand pays of any amount is nothing other than being intimidated into doing so. Sure some of you will mask it as an obscure type of "being a do-gooder" by fabricating in your mind that it's up to people like YOU to help assemble a fair wage for these lowly, poor casino grunts, or that bestowing tips upon these people will somehow, someday, eventually come back to you in kind. But at the same time, you know that's really nothing but a crock.

    For machine players, think about what you're doing should you be weak enough to be one of the many fools who regularly hand out tips after hand pays or at the cashiers. Do you tip bank cashiers? Then why are you so intimidated when facing a casino cashier? As for hand pays....when your machine freezes up and you need an attendant to call a tech over--or when coins used to occasionally get stuck--do you or did you ever tip these people for just doing their jobs? Yes, if you flag someone down to ask for a personal service such as "could you please bring me a bag or a pouch to put all this cash into so the bad guys won't see it as I leave" then it certainly makes sense to tip well because you asked for and received a service. But when the gang comes over to record your jackpot, issue your W2G, and either counts out your cash, gives you wads of wrapped $10,000 stacks, or hands the bartender the cash to give you, they are all simply DOING THEIR JOBS in response to your gambling in their place of employment, and you did not ASK for any of those services to be performed for you.

    it all comes down to intimidation. Most gamblers are indeed on the weak side, and as we've seen here, AP's are some of the weakest. You can tell by axel's brash comments about how he "doesn't like" people who don't tip. Why doesn't he like them....is he uneasy about there being people out there who are more sensible than him, have more discipline than him, and/or are not as easily intimidated as him?

    I've played BJ just a few times because I really don't like it or the loud-mouth, drunk, smoking characters who play that game, and I don't like sitting next to smelly fat people. But I do notice something about their tipping: It's totally and unequivocally stupid. Small town/local casino or not, why on earth would you ever tip a card dealer? Do you tip the BJ machine when you play those? Do you think it's gonna make the dealer "like you" so he'll send some good cards your way? Do you think a tip will get you a hand job after her shift is over? You actually believe tips will coerce meaningful corrective plays in your direction? If you're stupid enuf to tip dealers, you're even weaker and have less self-confidence than vp players.

    Wise up tippers. I've received far more hand pays than anyone can even begin or want to think I have, and I've not tipped a penny since I woke up in Jan. 2000. And I've watched hundreds of cashiers & floor attendants/bartenders who dish out hand pays with their array of scowls and dirty looks and their mumbling of "under the breath comments" as they walk away. Doesn't bother me in the least, and it's never meant a thing to my play other than having to wait a little longer the next time. And since I'm never in a hurry when playing, the tactic's irrelevant. Oh....and I don't go to casinos to "make friends" with or "build relationships with" anyone who works in them.

  5. #5
    The problem for an AP working a casino on a regular basis is getting known as a non-tipper. Heat doesn't just come from surveillance and security. The little old lady pushing the change cart can get the red ass at you. The cocktail waitress you won't tip drops a dime on you with the security guard that's been trying to fuck her for a year....and you are out the door. The slot tech doing the fills can get the red ass because you are making him work harder.

    When I was sweeping out Flush Attacks at Carson Valley Inn in Minden in 2003 the guy doing the fills says to me "Another day at the office, eh?" with a scowl on his face. After that he got $5 every time he went into my machine. He became very pleasant. I wasn't going to fuck up a $1200 a week gig because some slot tech didn't like what I was doing and dropped a dime on me.

    Rob is a negative expectation gambler. He doesn't understand that AP's can't afford to make enemies out of casino employee's no matter how lowly their job is.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Rob is a negative expectation gambler. He doesn't understand that AP's can't afford to make enemies out of casino employee's no matter how lowly their job is.
    Rob need every single penny he can muster up to feed his losing video poker addiction.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The problem for an AP working a casino on a regular basis is getting known as a non-tipper. Heat doesn't just come from surveillance and security. The little old lady pushing the change cart can get the red ass at you. The cocktail waitress you won't tip drops a dime on you with the security guard that's been trying to fuck her for a year....and you are out the door. The slot tech doing the fills can get the red ass because you are making him work harder.

    When I was sweeping out Flush Attacks at Carson Valley Inn in Minden in 2003 the guy doing the fills says to me "Another day at the office, eh?" with a scowl on his face. After that he got $5 every time he went into my machine. He became very pleasant. I wasn't going to fuck up a $1200 a week gig because some slot tech didn't like what I was doing and dropped a dime on me.

    Rob is a negative expectation gambler. He doesn't understand that AP's can't afford to make enemies out of casino employee's no matter how lowly their job is.
    Mickey, excellent post! We’re on the same page on this one. I stay free about 25 nights a year at my local casinos. I can assure you this would never happen if I didn’t tip. In fact, I’d probably already been kicked out of them if I didn’t tip since some of the dealers and pit bosses know I count.

    I always try to tip a little more than the average gambler since it makes my liked by all the casino employees. Heck, I even tip at the cage sometimes when I’m cashing in my chips. If I win big, I can become a tip-aholic. It’s one of life’s pleasures...seeing people get excited when they get a good tip. Makes me feel good too! Most locals give the waitresses one dollar for their drink; I always give them 2 dollars. If she’s really good looking with big tatas sometimes I give her 3 dollars.

    In my area, I don’t have to be a big tipper to be seen as a big tipper. Most the locals don’t tip much and the traveling APs are about as stingy as you can get. I’ve seen them win some pretty big money and not leave even one dollar. These are probably graduates from the Blackjack Apprenticeship bootcamps where not tipping even one dollar after a big win is seen as a badge of honor. I got banned from Blackjack Apprenticeship for being pro-tipping so if anybody goes on that site and doesn’t want to get banned, remember to stay away from the tipping subject.

    By the way, Alan, I really liked your article, and thanks for starting this thread on tipping. On this forum, I know I can express my views on tipping without getting banned. I found out the hard way that being pro-tipping is a ban-able offense on some gambling sites. I’m still trying to find the AP code of conduct manual so I don’t have any more slip ups. Lol.

  8. #8
    FINALLY, something that Rob Singer is right about. I wondered if this day would ever come? We will call this the 'blind squirrel theory' or 'the broken clock is correct twice a day' theory.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    FINALLY, something that Rob Singer is right about. I wondered if this day would ever come? We will call this the 'blind squirrel theory' or 'the broken clock is correct twice a day' theory.
    Hey Kj, I completely disagree with you on this one, but what’s new. Lol. There is NOT one tipping policy that applies to every part of the country and every situation.

    That’s what you by the book - got to know my EV impact on everything - APs haven’t figured out. Your god is the almighty EV. There is something called longevity that can be helped through tipping that you probably wouldn’t understand.

    Please read Stealth’s post in the Zee got banned at BJA thread. I thought his take on tipping was good. There are no absolutes when it comes to something like tipping. Since you can’t see past EV - and don’t understand the value in free room and board - you probably won’t understand it.

  10. #10
    I got a $50 tip from a player near me at the bar when he hit a 8 spot. He tipped 6 people. People are nuts.
    FraudJ's word is worth less than the prop cash in Singer's safe...RIP

  11. #11
    Bob21, I have read Stealth's opinion. And I don't disagree that there is no one answer. For certain situations like playing only a handful of casinos, it may help mildly.

    But anyone who thinks it is going to change anything as far as longevity....has a lot to learn. If a casino decides you or me or anyone is an advantage player and is playing serious money and they decide they no longer want your action, the fact that you tip a dealer a few red chips isn't going to influence that decision one iota.

    If longevity is a top priority as it is for me, you do what REALLY matters.

  12. #12
    This is one of those areas where size does matter.

    At the red chip level that you and the homeless players in Reno are playing, sure some pit critter may decide you are counting but decide to give you a little extra leeway because you are giving the little profit you make to the dealers.

    But when you are betting $400, $600, $800 (or higher as some pros do), any pit person making that same decision is putting HIS longevity in danger.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Bob21, I have read Stealth's opinion. And I don't disagree that there is no one answer. For certain situations like playing only a handful of casinos, it may help mildly.

    But anyone who thinks it is going to change anything as far as longevity....has a lot to learn. If a casino decides you or me or anyone is an advantage player and is playing serious money and they decide they no longer want your action, the fact that you tip a dealer a few red chips isn't going to influence that decision one iota.

    If longevity is a top priority as it is for me, you do what REALLY matters.
    As I’ve said many times, I’m mostly a recreational red chip player. At my level, tipping a couple whites goes a long way in preserving my local casinos. I also know I’d never get all my free rooms if my local casinos didn’t see me tipping and like me.

    I also treat casino personal with respect. Since no one has sent me the AP code of conduct manual, I don’t know if this is violating some AP rule. As everybody should know by now, I’m still not up to speed on all the unwritten rules pro-AP players abide by.

    I would agree with your last comment. If you are a big time player playing serious money, then tipping probably won’t get you much.

  14. #14
    It’s hard to believe how lucky I am to be able to read the views of my AP friends on such interesting topics such as shared in this thread.

    If tipping or not tipping could possibly have any meaningful result on your annual income; I just don’t know what to say.

    I think Mickey’s post makes a lot of sense. If you’re a frugal cheap-ass-skumbag, just say so, no need to make excuses.

    I tip the people that park my car, carry my bags, the receptionist, food service, drink service, favors, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, before I even make a bet.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    The problem for an AP working a casino on a regular basis is getting known as a non-tipper. Heat doesn't just come from surveillance and security. The little old lady pushing the change cart can get the red ass at you. The cocktail waitress you won't tip drops a dime on you with the security guard that's been trying to fuck her for a year....and you are out the door. The slot tech doing the fills can get the red ass because you are making him work harder.

    When I was sweeping out Flush Attacks at Carson Valley Inn in Minden in 2003 the guy doing the fills says to me "Another day at the office, eh?" with a scowl on his face. After that he got $5 every time he went into my machine. He became very pleasant. I wasn't going to fuck up a $1200 a week gig because some slot tech didn't like what I was doing and dropped a dime on me.

    Rob is a negative expectation gambler. He doesn't understand that AP's can't afford to make enemies out of casino employee's no matter how lowly their job is.
    I'm not certain you get it mickey. I always tip cocktail servers, bartenders after ordering a drink, food servers, baggage handlers, valet etc. There is zero reason to tip casino workers who are simply doing their job. What you're saying is you worry that if you don't tip techs, floor people, cashiers etc. then that somehow translates into an AP being stopped from playing there. That is completely false. Especially at a place like CVI where I've received many hand pays while never tipping, and I'm accepted just like anyone else whenever I dine in their steakhouse.

    You AP's always complain about how tough it is to find small edges in the casinos. It only makes sense then to not just throw any money away, correct? After all, you're not getting anything out of it other than the pretend-scenarios presented here about feel-good justifications, right?

    Kew, my clock hands have been stuck in that position since the year 2000. Glad you agree on this one.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    Kew, my clock hands have been stuck in that position since the year 2000. Glad you agree on this one.

    I always tip cocktail servers, bartenders after ordering a drink, food servers, baggage handlers, valet etc. There is zero reason to tip casino workers who are simply doing their job.
    Not only do I agree, I strongly agree. This statement is exactly my position and my policy. I am a decent tipper. I just don't believe a person standing at a blackjack table dealing cards is providing a service personalized to me. I equate it much more to some other low skill job like a cashier at a CVS. The idea that this is a job like a waiter, bartender, bellhop that should receive a tip is just pure baloney. This is just a low skill position in a casino, like so many others. It is the casinos responsibility to pay their employees, not mine. And that's all this really is...casino owners pushing that responsibility off on customers.

    Let me ask you guys this: Do you tip the security guard or the guy that does maintenance of machines? How about the security person that brings a chip fill for the table? Hey their contribution is needed just as much if not more than the dealer for me to win, and I have never once seen or heard of anyone tipping them. As a matter of fact it is probably prohibited, just as tipping a dealer should be.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    If tipping or not tipping could possibly have any meaningful result on your annual income; I just don’t know what to say.
    BH...always on point.

  18. #18
    Kewlj and Rob, I am not going to debate your tipping policy because I believe it's a personal decision for everyone to make.

    My purpose in responding is to tell kewlj that twice I tipped a technician in a casino.

    The first time was when I was dealt a royal on a 50 play machine at Mandalay Bay. The casino manager called in three techs to take the machine apart because the manager didn't believe the jackpot was real. After it was over I gave the lead tech $40 and I said thank you and please get lunch on me.

    Second time was also at Mandalay Bay. I was playing some deuces wild game and was dealt 55552 which paid $800. I held all five cards but the deuce fell off. I told a floor person who called a manager and a tech was sent over to open the machine and play back the hand to show I was indeed dealt 55552. I tipped the tech $20.

    I once offered a,security guard a tip who stood by as I was getting a big hand pay at Pechanga. They called in the security guard because it was an unruly crowd. The guard refused my tip.

    Now a question for Rob and kewlj: what's the difference between a cocktail waitress getting you a drink and a blackjack dealer dealing? Aren't they both doing their jobs? Why tip the waitress but not the dealer?

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Let me ask you guys this: Do you tip the security guard
    I've tipped security guards.

    For instance...if an elderly patron is in distress and a security guard responds kindly, I'll recognize and show my appreciation for their kindness if I'm nearby.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Now a question for Rob and kewlj: what's the difference between a cocktail waitress getting you a drink and a blackjack dealer dealing? Aren't they both doing their jobs? Why tip the waitress but not the dealer?
    I was going to respond to Kj and Rob’s post on why they think it’s okay to tip some jobs, like waitresses, and not others, like dealers, because this makes no sense. Alan’s comments sums it up perfectly.

    Kj and Rob’s standards on tipping makes no logic sense, but I’ve seen it repeated over and over on many bj forums, including BLackjack Apprenticeship. It’s always the same inconsistent argument. They first brag about being big tippers, tipping everybody from servers, bellhops, etc, but then say they won’t tip dealers because it’s the casino’s responsibility to pay the dealer. Why not be consistent and not tip anybody? And just leave it to the employer to pay their employees. This is the consistent position.

    Like it or not, our society has deemed which jobs are tip jobs and which are not. Dealers are tip jobs, meaning the majority of their pay comes from tips. If you don’t tip dealers, you are shorting their pay. It’s that simple. Since there is no law on tipping, you can short their pay if you want.

    Kj and Rob can make up their own rules if they want to, but they should at least understand they are operating outside of the standards of our society.

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