Tipping

[BoSox]

I'm not going to commit to much of an opinion on a subjective topic. But some things to consider:

1) If you disapprove of the "mission" of casinos in any way, should you prop up their business model by tipping? If you disapprove of some elements of the mission of casinos, and approve of others, should you tip just when involved with the "approved" elements? For example, if you think the gambling element is exploitative and in service of creating an addiction, why not stress the casino business model by not tipping those elements? But tip the show or food elements if you approve of them.

2) Would you tip your drug dealer? Since machine gambling is proven to addict people, and the methods and theories are actually quite established, one should make a decision as to whether tipping something like that is good for the individual or for society as a whole.

redietz, apparently you missed the memo from Bob21, it is the APs who roam the land that are the true parasites in the gaming business.

[smurgerburger]

"If you’re NOT going to tip a person who is working a tip job at least admit that you’re not doing it because you’re cheap. Don’t try to make up some silly excuse that it’s because of some higher principle."

I very much agree with this. I've seen a card counter claim he doesn't tip at restaurants either because he doesn't want to perpetuate tipping culture. As if the option of just not patronizing restaurants doesn't exist...

With all due respect to jbjb, I do not believe anyone doesn't tip because of the miniscule chance it could wind up being construed as evidence of cheating.

[smurgerburger]

Deech-

I appreciate the sincerity of your argument but I believe dealers are deliberately paid below market wage for a job that requires non-subsidized training (i.e. dealer school), very little schedule flexibility, no criminal background, a reasonable amount of mental acuity, and customer service. I would put dealers on the level of something like secretaries as opposed to fast food workers.

I don't know what dealer wages actually are, probably the legal minimum. But having worked several minimum wage jobs in my youth I think dealers are a higher caliber of labor than most non-tipped minimum wage workers.

Personally I would prefer the whole tipping culture go away but until it does I can't escape the conclusion that a person who chooses not to tip but does accept the benefit of customarily tipped labor is freeloading.

It's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what any dealer or mechanic makes, just as it's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what a person's dentist or accountant makes. Everyone is free to be happy with their pay or move on. It's their job, not our's, to ensure they're earning what they feel they should. That's what a free society within capitalism is all about.

What some of you are talking about when it comes to tipping people in jobs where you did not ask them for any particular service just because you don't think they make a "fair wage" is the same losing platform this moronic, bigmouth socialist AOC keeps spewing about.

I did not raise the question of how much they make, Deech did. Deech argued that the fundamental difference that justifies tipping waiters but not dealers is that waiters often make less than minimum wage while dealers make minimum wage.

The implication seemed to be that waiters depend on tips but dealers don't. But in fact dealers do depend on tips in the sense that they wouldn't do it without tips. So if you partake of the whole casino system without tipping you're freeloading off the people who do tip. I don't think I said anything about fairness although tbh I'm on mobile and can't be bothered to check my previous post

[mickeycrimm]

Waiters/Waitresses might make $2.15/ho. It is generally understood that they will rely on tips to achieve an above minimum wage compensation. As far as I know, casino personnel make at least minimum wage.

While not an AP, this is a simple reason why individuals tip a waiter/waitress and not another individual.

I coach HS basketball with a recently retired postman. He believes in tips. I do not believe in tips for federal employees. He asked if my mail deliveries were altered. I replied, like I care. UPS, Fed Ex, and Amazon delivers to my doorstep without requesting a tip. I know it will arrive on a certain date. Mail does not matter unless it is a timely bill.

I understand those who will tip, based on enhancing their situation.

This is no different than a professional expecting a significant part of their income on a Christmas bonus. The individual agreed to that income. Extra money is not guaranteed.

What bothers me the most is that I agree with Kewj and Rob. My statistics imply that I will eventually end up in a menage a trois in a RV. Not pleased.

All food service on the strip makes at least minimum wage. They are all culinary union. Off strip they are not, in all places. In Stations buffets they are culinary though.

The Strip bartenders were making $14 an hour 15 years ago. But it was a 100K a year job because of tips.

[mickeycrimm]

I don't buy the whole "They're just doing their job" when you're talking about dealers or slot dogs, but then say "they're providing a service" when talking about CWs and food servers. Everyone whom you'd tip is being paid for their job. Cocktail waitresses, dealers, food servers, etc. are all being paid to do their job. The only people that don't get paid (AFAIK) are strippers.

Of course, I'd never tip someone if I had good reason to believe they wouldn't be appreciative of it. Dealers are oftentimes in this category. A good one is if they make some dumbass remark about the tip, then say, "Oh shit, I didn't realize those were just white chips, here let me trade you I thought they were reds." then get the whites back and don't give 'em anything at all.

Not only do strippers not get paid they have to pay the club a daily amount to be in the joint plying their trade.

[mickeycrimm]

The statistic I saw is that Strip dealers earn on average $110,000 a year plus they have benefits. Is that still accurate and how does that compare with the annual income of the AVERAGE professional gambler?

That might explain why "APs" are anti tipping... their income is too low.

You just said "AP's are anti tipping." That blanket statement is not accurate. Some tip some don't. I do.

[mickeycrimm]

All kinds of jobs get tips. Where I come from, if your bootlegging ass don't tip the Sheriff every month, you will not remain in business.

[mickeycrimm]

What if Walmart decided they would pay workers $2 and hour and customer tips should make up the difference? That's what this feels like to me.

You just can't help being the idiot that comes up with extreme comparisons. This is why no one believes your fairy tale black jack stories. After 15 years of playing BJ in Vegas, regardless of what your rotation is, you've been seen enough by everyone to be recognized. You never present a card when asked which should be every tine you sit down, you hit and run obvious with profits most of the time to have netted over a million dollars. On top of it you never tip the dealers. They might not know your name but would have to at least say to themselves "here comes that hit and run cheap skumbag again." It's hard to believe after 15 years of action not one pit boss took it to the next level.

After 15 years of this behavior day after day, year after year, they still don't know who you really are. Do you realize even a little bit how dumb you appear to everyone except your cliche friends?

Sorry KJ, but your stories are to far fetched for common sense.

KJ has said before that he works a 30 casino rotation and makes around 100K per year, at least for the last several years. Now let's see.....100K divided by 30 means he whacks an individual joint for an average of about 3300 per year. Yep, you're right, BH. That there 3300 a year is a damn big attention getter. No way a casino would put up with that shit? I wish my IQ was as high as yours. You got it all figured out.

[mickeycrimm]

I've been on a play for the last two days. Big edge. But the damn machines are configured to handpay anything $500 or over. They've been around handpaying me 6 times now. We're getting to know each other quite well. No one else getting handpayed on this bank. Just me. They're not even smiling anymore when they approach me.

Now, I know what you are thinking, Rob. "That idiot Crimm is tipping those undeserving assholes." Well....you got me there. I have been handing them a little money. But here's the thing, Rob. What you call a tip....I call a....BRIBE. We'll see how long it lasts.

[kewlJ]

What if Walmart decided they would pay workers $2 and hour and customer tips should make up the difference? That's what this feels like to me.

You just can't help being the idiot that comes up with extreme comparisons. This is why no one believes your fairy tale black jack stories. After 15 years of playing BJ in Vegas, regardless of what your rotation is, you've been seen enough by everyone to be recognized. You never present a card when asked which should be every tine you sit down, you hit and run obvious with profits most of the time to have netted over a million dollars. On top of it you never tip the dealers. They might not know your name but would have to at least say to themselves "here comes that hit and run cheap skumbag again." It's hard to believe after 15 years of action not one pit boss took it to the next level.

After 15 years of this behavior day after day, year after year, they still don't know who you really are. Do you realize even a little bit how dumb you appear to everyone except your cliche friends?

Sorry KJ, but your stories are to far fetched for common sense.

KJ has said before that he works a 30 casino rotation and makes around 100K per year, at least for the last several years. Now let's see.....100K divided by 30 means he whacks an individual joint for an average of about 3300 per year. Yep, you're right, BH. That there 3300 a year is a damn big attention getter. No way a casino would put up with that shit? I wish my IQ was as high as yours. You got it all figured out.

Thank you mickeycrimm. I don't know why any of us even continue to bother with these goof balls. We say green and they hear orange. They hear what they want to hear and they make-up what they want to believe.

My home rotation of Las Vegas casinos is about 30 casinos. Actually 32 at the moment. But they are not all equal. Some I play a couple times a week, while other might only be a couple times a month.

In addition to that I play some out of town casinos. I make a twice annually trip east, playing some PA casinos and occasionally AC. I recently hit Reno for a long weekend. I make short trips through Arizona and California. Maybe once a year a little trip to the Pacific North West. All in all I play over 50 casinos a year, but 30 some is my home rotation.

My top earner last year ($7137,50) was a casino I hit about once a week. If people like blackhole would do the math, they would see that is an average of about $140 a week win. And this was my TOP earning casino. The average win per casino is under $2500....That is about $50 a week. Of course averages don't work exactly like that. There are some bigger sessions and some losing sessions. But all in all this is exactly what identifying and playing levels better tolerated is about, along with short sessions.

It is true that my annual EV for the last 5 years has been just about 100k (slightly less) and my earning over that time pretty close to expectation. But that has included about 20k per year in non-blackjack EV, which I have now all but eliminated. So if I were to put in the same blackjack play without that extra, I would now be looking at EV closer to the 80k neighborhood. I am hoping to play a little more to make up some of that difference, so we'll see how that goes.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj wrote (and forgive me for not excepting but I'm on my cell):

"My top earner last year ($7137,50) was a casino I hit about once a week. If people like blackhole would do the math, they would see that is an average of about $140 a week win. And this was my TOP earning casino. The average win per casino is under $2500....That is about $50 a week. Of course averages don't work exactly like that. There are some bigger sessions and some losing sessions. But all in all this is exactly what identifying and playing levels better tolerated is about, along with short sessions."

So.... how the hell do you lose $29,000 in a week and $8800 in a day?

[blackhole]

Kewlj wrote (and forgive me for not excepting but I'm on my cell):

"My top earner last year ($7137,50) was a casino I hit about once a week. If people like blackhole would do the math, they would see that is an average of about $140 a week win. And this was my TOP earning casino. The average win per casino is under $2500....That is about $50 a week. Of course averages don't work exactly like that. There are some bigger sessions and some losing sessions. But all in all this is exactly what identifying and playing levels better tolerated is about, along with short sessions."

So.... how the hell do you lose $29,000 in a week and $8800 in a day?

[ke6cdh]

I tip bartenders and waiters at the casino all the time.

[Bob21]

I have been around forums for a while now. I think I started on forums my 3rd year into my career, so that would be 13 years now. I have seen literally hundreds (plural) of discussions on this topic. And always there is some casino personnel making precisely the arguments that bob21 is making here. I mean down to the very words! And it always includes that AP's contribute nothing to society. Must be some sort of casino personnel/anti AP manual. Ah where can I find this manual bob21? Do they give it out when you start work for the casino?

Bob21, you told that heartbreaking story of the nasty, young, white, male card counter that stiffed 3 African American, female dealers. Odd that you felt the need to include race and sex, but you wanted to go all out didn't you. Nasty contribute nothing to society...what is your word...parasite? And specify white suppressing blacks, male bullying and dominating females. You went all out on this one didn't you bob21?

So let me ask you this, had this priveledged, nasty young white, male card counter tipped say...$25 per black, female dealer would he have been allowed to continue to play? I mean that seems to be the under tone of your story. He didn't tip so he was shown the door.

Now of course you have no clue about any of the circumstances involved. Suppose this player had lost say...$29,000 in the previous week and was just beginning to recoup his underfunded bankroll. Perhaps he didn't care for the attitude of the black, female dealers. All you know is that he won money, so he who took all the risk, is under some obligation to share that money with casino employees who took none of the risk. I mean that seems like some sort of casino tax or cover charge to me.

When people cash their paychecks, are people with bigger paychecks required to share some of those earnings with the teller cashing their check? Why not? Why don't bank tellers have a tip jar sitting out there? Why don't the cashiers at grocery stores have a tip jar? Maybe a sign that says I am unskilled and work a low paying job....tips appreciated. Maybe the trashmen, could duck tape a big old trash can to the side of the trash truck and in magic marker write "tips". Should we jump up when we see the mailman coming and run out and tip him?

The answer to these questions is no because that is not how this works. These are business and part of the cost of doing business for an owner is to compensate his employees. I'll bet the postal service and the trash company would love to pay employees minimum wage and let the customers make up the difference in tips.

The casino business is not entertainment, it is gambling. There are games of chance, each and every one set up with a house advantage. THAT is the business model. That is the profit. They are supposed to take that profit and pay expenses, including employees....just like every other business. Instead they have somehow decides somewhere along the line that those that are successful at these games of chance, by completely legal means should foot the bill for paying employees, so that the casino owners and CEO's like Sheldon Adelson, Steve Wynn, Trump at one time, can get richer.

So bob21, if you are unhappy with your salary as a casino employee, go talk to the fat cat that runs your casino or corporation, but you or the 3 poor suppressed black, females dealers aren't entitled to a portion of my winnings that I took all the risks for....that I have had 10 figure losing days for...29k losing weeks for. You aren't entitled to shit. Hers's what you can do though. You can shut your fucking mouth and quit bitching about your poor decisions and choose a different path. Or you can shut your fucking mouth and deal the cards before some robot or video screen dealer does away with you meaningless job.

Hey kj, I’m finally getting around to answering some of your questions. First, no I do not think tipping would have helped this guy last longer, but who knows? Not tipping sure didn’t help him. I was actually surprised the casino waited so long to back him off. I’d have backed him off in the first hour. They let him play much longer than I would have.

My point is what NORMAL person wins over $8,000 (btw, I gave the incorrect amount in case some casino spy was lurking...it was actually much more than that) playing with three incredibly sweet, attractive, down-to-earth dealers and NOT tip one single dollar? At this casino, the dealers make below minimum wage. I’ve played with all three dealers and they NEVER pimp for a tip. They never put any pressure on their customers to tip, and some of their regulars don’t tip. Yes, surpise, surprise, there are some regulars that are just as cheap as some APs. You have to be pretty cold-hearted to not tip after a big win. Or you’ve played so long you’ve lost your compassion for your fellowman or you lost your moral compass or you want to impress your fellow like-minded APs on how much you can win without leaving even a one dollar tip.

One of the dealers I talked to told me he was an AP. Acting naive, I said what is an AP? She correctly explained what AP stands for and told me her experience with this type of person. I told her it sounds like these are some pretty nasty people just traveling around the country taking from local casinos without giving anything back. She said, yeah, most of them don’t tip. I told her they sound kind of like pigeons, just going around crapping on things. She laughed.

I want to be clear I do not believe all APs are like this. Just the other day, I played with a young Card counter and he spread pretty big and tipped regularly. I was actually quite impressed. I thought he certainly didn’t got to any BJA bootcamp, because he wasn’t following any of their guidelines. He played there a couple days and was never backed off. The dealers liked him and mentioned that to me. Did this help him not get backed off? I don’t know? Maybe. I know I played at his table a couple times (I flat bet when I played with him so he wouldn’t know I was a counter too) and I liked the guy. He got how to treat casino personal. He tipped cocktail watrsses and dealers generously, and had a good personality, cheering on the table at the right times. The two times I played with him, he was up a couple thousand and not getting any heat. And he spread from one to two hands at the right times with some big bets. He helped me see what I can get away at this casino in the future.

Are all APs the same? Of course not. But there seems to be a new bread of young counters that actually take pride in not tipping. This is what I’ve found alarming. What other group of people brag about not tipping? I’ve only seen it in the AP world.

[mickeycrimm]

Kewlj wrote (and forgive me for not excepting but I'm on my cell):

"My top earner last year ($7137,50) was a casino I hit about once a week. If people like blackhole would do the math, they would see that is an average of about $140 a week win. And this was my TOP earning casino. The average win per casino is under $2500....That is about $50 a week. Of course averages don't work exactly like that. There are some bigger sessions and some losing sessions. But all in all this is exactly what identifying and playing levels better tolerated is about, along with short sessions."

So.... how the hell do you lose $29,000 in a week and $8800 in a day?

I would imagine hitting several casinos in one day.

[mickeycrimm]

I think it was Peter Griffen that came up with this witticism:

What is the difference between a professional blackjack player and a canoe?

A canoe tips!

[kewlJ]

Kewlj wrote (and forgive me for not excepting but I'm on my cell):

"My top earner last year ($7137,50) was a casino I hit about once a week. If people like blackhole would do the math, they would see that is an average of about $140 a week win. And this was my TOP earning casino. The average win per casino is under $2500....That is about $50 a week. Of course averages don't work exactly like that. There are some bigger sessions and some losing sessions. But all in all this is exactly what identifying and playing levels better tolerated is about, along with short sessions."

So.... how the hell do you lose $29,000 in a week and $8800 in a day?

Alan you need to read up on and learn what the term "average" means?

I say "average" and you immediately quote the extremes. Just like I said. I say "green", you hear "orange".

[BoSox]

Bob21 wrote:

"I want to be clear I do not believe all APs are like this. Just the other day, I played with a young Card counter and he spread pretty big and tipped regularly. I was actually quite impressed. I thought he certainly didn’t got to any BJA bootcamp,
because he wasn’t following any of their guidelines. He played there a couple days and was never backed off. The dealers liked him and mentioned that to me. Did this help him not get backed off? I don’t know? Maybe. I know I played at his table a couple time (I flat bet when I played with him so he wouldn’t know I was a counter too) and I liked the guy. He got how to treat casino personal. He tipped cocktail watrsses and dealers generously, and had a good personality, cheering on the table at the right times. The two times I played with him, he was up a couple thousand and not getting any heat. And he spread from one to two hands at the right times with some big bets. He helped me see what I can get away with in the future."


Regarding that last sentence you wrote Bob, I hate to bust your bubble but your current play is already establishing your future for that casino. You will already have an extended record of previous play for the casino to reflect upon. One day when you decide to move up in level of play you will likely find out quickly how little your previous ratholing actually worked. All those dollar tips you are now giving is not buying you extra time, they more than likely look at you and your current play as just a no threat cockroach which they will keep one eye on for a while.

[Bob21]

Bob21 wrote:

"I want to be clear I do not believe all APs are like this. Just the other day, I played with a young Card counter and he spread pretty big and tipped regularly. I was actually quite impressed. I thought he certainly didn’t got to any BJA bootcamp,
because he wasn’t following any of their guidelines. He played there a couple days and was never backed off. The dealers liked him and mentioned that to me. Did this help him not get backed off? I don’t know? Maybe. I know I played at his table a couple time (I flat bet when I played with him so he wouldn’t know I was a counter too) and I liked the guy. He got how to treat casino personal. He tipped cocktail watrsses and dealers generously, and had a good personality, cheering on the table at the right times. The two times I played with him, he was up a couple thousand and not getting any heat. And he spread from one to two hands at the right times with some big bets. He helped me see what I can get away with in the future."


Regarding that last sentence you wrote Bob, I hate to bust your bubble but your current play is already establishing your future for that casino. You will already have an extended record of previous play for the casino to reflect upon. One day when you decide to move up in level of play you will likely find out quickly how little your previous ratholing actually worked. All those dollar tips you are now giving is not buying you extra time, they more than likely look at you and your current play as just a no threat cockroach which they will keep one eye on for a while.

Hey Bosox, I pretty much agree with everything you said, even when you called me a cockroach. Good choice of words by the way. When I’m APing, this is how I feel, like a cockroach, parasite or leach. You can pick you name. I know I’m not adding any value that’s for sure.

That’s why I have a policy to NEVER take too much from a casino in any one month and always tip. I know the casinos are the ones adding the value to our society through jobs, entertainment for the people who play responsible (which is the majority), and revenue for the state and local governments.

What am I doing? Like you said nothing but being a cockroach by trying to extract some money from them while not doing anything of value. Well put Bosox. You’re starting to come around to seeing things the way I do.

[jbjb]

I know the casinos are the ones adding the value to our society through jobs, entertainment for the people who play responsible (which is the majority), and revenue for the state and local governments.

Bullshit they are!

https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gamb...or-black-hole/