Casino’s Mission

[Bob21]

I’m opening a new thread since I can see most don’t understand why casinos exist. This discussion belongs under its own thread and not in the tipping thread. I hope this will help inform the people who have many misconceptions about casinos.

The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s. You can think of them as voluntary tax programs for the state, similar to why most states have lotteries. It’s not a coincidence that casinos became legal in Nevada in 1931, the same year that Hoover Dam project started. The government needed money to fund this project and our country was coming out of a depression, so it didn’t want to raise mandatory taxes. Hence, the voluntary tax program, called casinos.

New Jersey (Atlantic City) followed in 1976, and subsequent states legalized casinos one by one for all the same reason...to generate revenue for state and local governments. Today casinos are legal in at least 30 states.

Local communities also need to approve a casino before they can operate. I live in a state with a lot of casinos, but my local community is conservative and has NOT allowed them in. This comes up in every election on our ballot and it’s always voted down. Again, governments (local and state) are what determines if a casino can operate.

To summarize, casinos are run by private businesses for the purpose of generating revenue for our government. That’s why it makes no sense to criticize casinos for doing what their business model calls for. For those who haven’t figured it out, the casino’s business model is to provide negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment. If you don’t like casinos and think they are destructive to the poor and vulnerable (which is my view), then you should criticize our government and try to get them shut down. You should NOT criticize casinos.

In my opinion, there is a little difference between someone on welfare and an AP. The welfare person gets a check directly from the government, while the AP goes to the government’s voluntary tax center (casinos) to get their check. They both are more or less living off the government. This isn’t a popular view, but it’s the correct one.

I pay a lot of mandatory taxes with my current job, so I don’t feel too bad in extracting money from the government’s voluntary tax centers (casinos). I’m not saying what an AP is doing is wrong...it’s not! But let’s not try to make it out to be some noble job and make the casinos out to be the bad guy.

[Alan Mendelson]

Bob21 when a casino cuts paytables on video poker is it doing it to generate more tax revenue or to generate more profits for its shareholders?

[redietz]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

[Bob21]

Bob21 when a casino cuts paytables on video poker is it doing it to generate more tax revenue or to generate more profits for its shareholders?

Don’t know. All I know is gambling (casinos) is a ZERO sum game. The only value being created in a casino is entertainment. Casinos are like sports, movies, art, etc. It creates no value other than entertainment.

What I do know is that it’s in the government’s interest for everyone to be a net loser in a casino. Obviously, this isn’t going to happen.

Think of the state lottery. The state would make much more money if it didn’t have to pay out any money to the winners. The reason they have to pay out some money to winners is to get people to play.

Casinos and lottiers are the same thing...a voluntary tax program to raise revenue for the government.

This gets into a bigger question. Why do states have voluntary tax programs? Why not get rid of casinos and lotteries and just raise taxes on everybody? That would be the most fair way of doing things. Because if they did than the politicians would be voted out of office.

[Alan Mendelson]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

Just checked the AGA, and found:

"At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."

[Bob21]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

You could not be more wrong redietz. Tribal casinos have to get approval from state and local governments, just like a state run casinos. They exist for the same reason non-Tribal casinos exist. To generate revenue for state and local governments.

If you think you're right, why aren’t there casinos in every state? At one time all our land was Indian land. Why doesn’t Texas have casinos? Because that state won’t let them in.

[Alan Mendelson]

It's true that tribal casinos do generate some revenue for government but the intent of tribal casinos is to generate revenue for the tribe. Unfortunately sometimes the tribe has only a dozen members.

Note the following:

Casino ventures between companies and small tribes are particularly controversial. According to Timothy Egan, in “Lawsuit in California Asks, Whose Tribe Is It, Anyway?” (New York Times, April 10, 2002), critics suggest that small tribes are being manipulated by outside investors who only want to cash in on tribal casinos. The California Nations Indian Gaming Association insists that small tribes should not be denied the tremendous economic opportunities offered by casinos. Egan notes that Susan Jensen, a spokesperson for the group, said, “The reason some of these tribes have only one or two people left is because Indians were exterminated.”

[Bob21]

It's true that tribal casinos do generate some revenue for government but the intent of tribal casinos is to generate revenue for the tribe. Unfortunately sometimes the tribe has only a dozen members.

Note the following:

Casino ventures between companies and small tribes are particularly controversial. According to Timothy Egan, in “Lawsuit in California Asks, Whose Tribe Is It, Anyway?” (New York Times, April 10, 2002), critics suggest that small tribes are being manipulated by outside investors who only want to cash in on tribal casinos. The California Nations Indian Gaming Association insists that small tribes should not be denied the tremendous economic opportunities offered by casinos. Egan notes that Susan Jensen, a spokesperson for the group, said, “The reason some of these tribes have only one or two people left is because Indians were exterminated.”

I disagree with your assessment of the tribal casinos but we should really start a new thread on this subject. The main reason tribal casinos exists is no different than why any other casinos exist. The tribal casinos is basically a loophole local governments use to allow them to bring casinos into their area.

What I’ve found is most APs don’t understand the Tribal casino situation either.

I lived in Connecticut for 7 years and found the whole Indian casino thing fascinating. Different tribes of Indians were constantly trying to get casinos approved but the Foxwoods and MS group had more political power and got these casinos stopped. It was interesting keeping up with it. Bottom line is Indian casinos are still under US law.

[DGenBen]

“The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s”

C’mon man! The casino’s primary purpose is to generate revenue for the casino

[BoSox]

Bob21wrote:

"The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s. You can think of them as voluntary tax programs for the state, similar to why most states have lotteries."


"To summarize, casinos are run by private businesses for the purpose of generating revenue for our government. That’s why it makes no sense to criticize casinos for doing what their business model calls for."



Now that is not right Blob. What the casinos "private business" payout to the government in annual license fees and percentages of gaming revenue are considered expenses "cost of doing business" to the companies themselves. Or said another way grease the wheel so to speak. Either way far greater percentages of the profits are dispersed to the shareholders. Most of this dispersment money to shareholders leaves the states never to return again.


Now back to what the States receive in guaranteed contract percentages in give back agreements money's from casinos are in fact very lucrative sums, to say the least. Subsequently, in my mind that fact alone makes the State's actual shareholders "in some form of capacity" in those businesses themselves. Now this next fact is important, States run their own Gaming Commissions which in essense cannot make them independant bodies who are supposed to be looking out for the better good of it's citizens. What I am saying is in my mind States have no business making up gaming regulations as it is a conflict of interest on whom they are looking out for. No other way to say it. That is one of the reasons for all the new shitty gaming rules turning up everywhere in the country. Alan maybe you can do a story?

[Bob21]

“The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s”

C’mon man! The casino’s primary purpose is to generate revenue for the casino

Here’s what you're missing. State and local governments would never approve them if they didn’t get something from them. They know the downside of casinos. Pretty much everybody who wasn’t born under a rock knows the downsides of casinos.

The casino industry and shareholders can NOT operate casinos without the government’s approval.

As with all businesses, a business makes more money than it pays in taxes. Yes, I get that. That’s pretty much common sense. As with an individual, a business only pays a portion of its earnings to the govement in taxes. A casino is under the same tax laws as other businesses.

Casinos and lotteries are in the same boat. They both have been legalized by our government as a way to generate more revenue for our government. It’s that simple!

Here’s an interesting statistic I’ve seen somewhere. Casinos generate more revenue than the theee major sports (NFL, NBA and MLB) and movie industry combinded. So guess what that means? Casinos generate more revenue for our government than all these businesses combined. Let that sink in for a while. People in our country love their casinos.

[DGenBen]

Yes I get that. They have to give revenue to the government to operate. But you stated the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for the government. Again the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for its owners and the revenue it pays to the government is a cost of doing business.

I disagree with your assertion that their primary purpose is to generate revenue for the government. Ask Bugsy Seigel, Benny Binion, Howard Hughes, Steve Wynn, etc etc if they got up one day and said “I need a way to generate revenue for the government. What would be the best way to do it? I know! Go into the casino business so that I can generate revenue for the government!” No they went into the casino business with the primary purpose of generating profit for themselves and with the understanding they would have to pay taxes to the government as a cost of doing business. (The ones that actually paid taxes and didn’t illegally skim the profits)

[Bob21]

Yes I get that. They have to give revenue to the government to operate. But you stated the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for the government. Again the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for its owners and the revenue it pays to the government is a cost of doing business.

I disagree with your assertion that their primary purpose is to generate revenue for the government. Ask Bugsy Seigel, Benny Binion, Howard Hughes, Steve Wynn, etc etc if they got up one day and said “I need a way to generate revenue for the government. What would be the best way to do it? I know! Go into the casino business so that I can generate revenue for the government!” No they went into the casino business with the primary purpose of generating profit for themselves and with the understanding they would have to pay taxes to the government as a cost of doing business. (The ones that actually paid taxes and didn’t illegally skim the profits)

I stand my comment. The PRIMAY reason casinos operates is to generate revenue for state and local governments.

Yes, a lot of factors go into why casinos have been legalized in our country. I get that. Do you think it’s just a coincidence the Hoover Dam project started the same year casinos where legalized in Nevada? I don’t know if you’ve seen the Hoover Dam, but it’s a big project and took a lot of money. The same is true in Atlantic City. Casinos were brought there to try to revive the economy.

Every state and city who has approved casinos has done it for the purpose of tax dollars and to improve their local economy.

From a conservative standpoint, the problem with this approach is no tangible value is being created with casinos, except entertainment. Casinos are a “zero sum” game, meaning someone wins and someone loses. This is not the case with other business, where everybody wins, the customer and the business. The customer gets want he/she wants and the business gets paid for it.

Anyway, I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to agree on this, but you should at least understand legal casinos can NOT operate without our government approving them. I hope we can at least agree on that point.

[DGenBen]

“Anyway, I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to agree on this, but you should at least understand legal casinos can NOT operate without our government approving them. I hope we can at least agree on that point”

Yep, agree with that. Will add that when governments approve casinos I don’t think the public’s interest is first and foremost in their mind. It’s the revenue. Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions. And then they usually give one or two casinos a monopoly in an area with the logic being they are protecting the public by limiting gaming growth in the area when in realty the lack of competition in an area will allow a casino to offer horrible odds to its players.

[Bob21]

“Anyway, I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to agree on this, but you should at least understand legal casinos can NOT operate without our government approving them. I hope we can at least agree on that point”

Yep, agree with that. Will add that when governments approve casinos I don’t think the public’s interest is first and foremost in their mind. It’s the revenue. Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions. And then they usually give one or two casinos a monopoly in an area with the logic being they are protecting the public by limiting gaming growth in the area when in realty the lack of competition in an area will allow a casino to offer horrible odds to its players.

We’re in complete agreement on all your comments in this post. Our government is just as shady (probably more so) than any of the casino operators. I agree...most the time the public’s interest is not considered when governments approve casinos.

Governments (both local and state) have sold out to get quick easy revenue from casinos. Texas is one state that has held out and not legalized casinos. The problem is all the revenue they’re losing to boardering states (Louisiana and Oklahoma). There’s a reason WinStar (located across their boarder in Oklahoma) is the worlds largest casino. They are catering to the Dallas crowd. Texans love to gamble even though their state has no legal casinos. If Texas should ever legalize casinos, WinStar will be in a heap of trouble.

A couple states and local towns have some principles and have resisted casinos. I’m proud to say I live in one of those cities. Everytime I see the casinos initiative on the ballot, I vote no. The last thing I want is a casino in my city. I wonder how long we’ll be able to hold out. Casinos get closer to being approved everytime it’s on the ballot.

[Rob.Singer]

There is some very strange assertions in this thread.

All tribal casinos are exempt from paying fed. taxes.

Here in Az. where there are some big Indian joints, they do not pay the state corporate income tax, and Indians who earn wages on property are exempt from paying state income tax.

Other than that, casinos' sole purpose for opening are to generate revenue for themselves. Obviously. States have the right to negotiate for a part of their net profiting, but it is rarely agreed upon.

(Indians open casinos so their executive board members can drink all the firewater they like)

[Bob21]

Other than that, casinos' sole purpose for opening are to generate revenue for themselves.

Rob, you can’t really believe that. If that was true, why would state and local governments approve them? Indian casinos can not open on their own. Indian casinos have to abide by US law. I don’t know if you noticed but we won the war between Cowboys and Indians. Lol

I just found an article that said Indian casinos generate $15 billion in tax revenue to “government entities”. I don’t know how that number is calculated and I expect it’s inflated but to NOT acknowledge Indian casino are paying some sort of taxes to our government is just being naive, to say it midly.

[redietz]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

You could not be more wrong redietz. Tribal casinos have to get approval from state and local governments, just like a state run casinos. They exist for the same reason non-Tribal casinos exist. To generate revenue for state and local governments.

If you think you're right, why aren’t there casinos in every state? At one time all our land was Indian land. Why doesn’t Texas have casinos? Because that state won’t let them in.

Well, ring the bell -- Argentino and I see eye to eye on another topic.

Yeah, there are some strange -- and wrong -- assertions here. Kind of makes one wonder why somebody starts a thread when they don't know anything about half the casinos in this country.

In many ways, tribal casinos are a way for Native Americans to collect their own reparations from the mathematically challenged American tourist population.

[Bob21]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

You could not be more wrong redietz. Tribal casinos have to get approval from state and local governments, just like a state run casinos. They exist for the same reason non-Tribal casinos exist. To generate revenue for state and local governments.

If you think you're right, why aren’t there casinos in every state? At one time all our land was Indian land. Why doesn’t Texas have casinos? Because that state won’t let them in.

Well, ring the bell -- Argentino and I see eye to eye on another topic.

Yeah, there are some strange -- and wrong -- assertions here. Kind of makes one wonder why somebody starts a thread when they don't know anything about half the casinos in this country.

In many ways, tribal casinos are a way for Native Americans to collect their own reparations from the mathematically challenged American tourist population.

So you’re saying Indian casinos pay no local or state taxes? Maybe it’s not called taxes but they pay something to the state and local entities for the right to operate their casinos. I think you’re right, it’s called something else, but it’s still revenue going to local governments. If you’re going to make such an accusation, please support it with some references.

I’m shocked at how little APs know about the casino industry. It looks like they get most of their information from word of mouth and speculation. Do some research and you might be surprised at what you find.

[Rob.Singer]

You could not be more wrong redietz. Tribal casinos have to get approval from state and local governments, just like a state run casinos. They exist for the same reason non-Tribal casinos exist. To generate revenue for state and local governments.

If you think you're right, why aren’t there casinos in every state? At one time all our land was Indian land. Why doesn’t Texas have casinos? Because that state won’t let them in.

Well, ring the bell -- Argentino and I see eye to eye on another topic.

Yeah, there are some strange -- and wrong -- assertions here. Kind of makes one wonder why somebody starts a thread when they don't know anything about half the casinos in this country.

In many ways, tribal casinos are a way for Native Americans to collect their own reparations from the mathematically challenged American tourist population.

So you’re saying Indian casinos pay no local or state taxes? Maybe it’s not called taxes but they pay something to the state and local entities for the right to operate their casinos. I think you’re right, it’s called something else, but it’s still revenue going to local governments. If you’re going to make such an accusation, please support it with some references.

I’m shocked at how little APs know about the casino industry. It looks like they get most of their information from word of mouth and speculation. Do some research and you might be surprised at what you find.

I'm no AP, at least in the marginalized sense of the word. But while you're requesting supporting info on the facts I laid out, it'd be nice if you first produce evidence of your initial assertions. I know there will be none because it's all just a click away on the internet. You should have listened to redietz.

And I'll even clip your wings a little more before you try to proclaim that those who win in casinos are big time taxpayers. First, most people lose, and the vast majority of those who receive W2G's incur overall more losses than they win. But let's stick with the "winners" for now, shall we?

We'll first use kew as an example. The character he's created wins every year playing bj. Let's say he claimed a net income of $88,000 in 2018. He's likely received zero W2G's. Now it doesn't take an MBA like me to ascertain that he'd have to be the absolute dumbest bazooka to come down the gambling pike not to have also claimed $88,000 in losses--IF he files a tax return. No AP gambler looks for ways to pay taxes.

Next we'll shift gears to mickeycrimm. The character HE'S created on the internet claims to beat up casinos to the tune of $100,000+ every year! He also claims to rarely, if ever, receive W2G's, because he's a low level player. Now, should he be an avid filer of tax returns, do you actually believe he would not deduct losses equal to his winnings, or do you think he would truthfully report his net winnings so he could happily cut a check for $21,000 to the IRS on April 15th?

Wise up.