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  1. #1
    I’m opening a new thread since I can see most don’t understand why casinos exist. This discussion belongs under its own thread and not in the tipping thread. I hope this will help inform the people who have many misconceptions about casinos.

    The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s. You can think of them as voluntary tax programs for the state, similar to why most states have lotteries. It’s not a coincidence that casinos became legal in Nevada in 1931, the same year that Hoover Dam project started. The government needed money to fund this project and our country was coming out of a depression, so it didn’t want to raise mandatory taxes. Hence, the voluntary tax program, called casinos.

    New Jersey (Atlantic City) followed in 1976, and subsequent states legalized casinos one by one for all the same reason...to generate revenue for state and local governments. Today casinos are legal in at least 30 states.

    Local communities also need to approve a casino before they can operate. I live in a state with a lot of casinos, but my local community is conservative and has NOT allowed them in. This comes up in every election on our ballot and it’s always voted down. Again, governments (local and state) are what determines if a casino can operate.

    To summarize, casinos are run by private businesses for the purpose of generating revenue for our government. That’s why it makes no sense to criticize casinos for doing what their business model calls for. For those who haven’t figured it out, the casino’s business model is to provide negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment. If you don’t like casinos and think they are destructive to the poor and vulnerable (which is my view), then you should criticize our government and try to get them shut down. You should NOT criticize casinos.

    In my opinion, there is a little difference between someone on welfare and an AP. The welfare person gets a check directly from the government, while the AP goes to the government’s voluntary tax center (casinos) to get their check. They both are more or less living off the government. This isn’t a popular view, but it’s the correct one.

    I pay a lot of mandatory taxes with my current job, so I don’t feel too bad in extracting money from the government’s voluntary tax centers (casinos). I’m not saying what an AP is doing is wrong...it’s not! But let’s not try to make it out to be some noble job and make the casinos out to be the bad guy.

  2. #2
    Bob21 when a casino cuts paytables on video poker is it doing it to generate more tax revenue or to generate more profits for its shareholders?

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Bob21 when a casino cuts paytables on video poker is it doing it to generate more tax revenue or to generate more profits for its shareholders?
    Don’t know. All I know is gambling (casinos) is a ZERO sum game. The only value being created in a casino is entertainment. Casinos are like sports, movies, art, etc. It creates no value other than entertainment.

    What I do know is that it’s in the government’s interest for everyone to be a net loser in a casino. Obviously, this isn’t going to happen.

    Think of the state lottery. The state would make much more money if it didn’t have to pay out any money to the winners. The reason they have to pay out some money to winners is to get people to play.

    Casinos and lottiers are the same thing...a voluntary tax program to raise revenue for the government.

    This gets into a bigger question. Why do states have voluntary tax programs? Why not get rid of casinos and lotteries and just raise taxes on everybody? That would be the most fair way of doing things. Because if they did than the politicians would be voted out of office.
    Last edited by Bob21; 03-28-2019 at 08:55 AM.

  4. #4
    Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

    Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

    Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).
    The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

    Just checked the AGA, and found:

    "At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 03-28-2019 at 08:53 AM.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

    Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).
    The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

    Just checked the AGA, and found:

    "At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."
    There are 1700 casinos in Montana.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

    Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).
    The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

    Just checked the AGA, and found:

    "At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."
    There are 1700 casinos in Montana.
    I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for posting this. What a wonderful feeling you must have being able to set the record straight by saying there are 1700 casinos in Montana. But regardless of the sign on the door, places of business such as bars and restaurants and gas stations with a limited number of machines are NOT considered to be casinos.

    So before this turns into 20 pages of arguing over definitions and the typical insulting that every thread evolves into because of absentee weak management let me say that the numbers used above by the AGA and quoted for the Native Indian Casinos do not include gas stations, bars, convenience and grocery stores with slot machines. Check the AGA website for how these are defined:

    "Commercial casino locations do not include other forms of commercial gaming, such as bars, taverns or truck stops with video lottery terminals, video gaming terminals or electronic gaming devices, animal racetracks without gaming machines such as horse and dog tracks, slot-route operation locations, instant racing terminal locations or off-track betting operations, lottery/retail locations, card rooms, standalone sportsbooks, or other locations in which gaming is incidental to the location’s primary business."
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 03-29-2019 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post

    The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

    Just checked the AGA, and found:

    "At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."
    There are 1700 casinos in Montana.
    I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for posting this. What a wonderful feeling you must have being able to set the record straight by saying there are 1700 casinos in Montana. But regardless of the sign on the door, places of business such as bars and restaurants and gas stations with a limited number of machines are NOT considered to be casinos.

    So before this turns into 20 pages of arguing over definitions and the typical insulting that every thread evolves into because of absentee weak management let me say that the numbers used above by the AGA and quoted for the Native Indian Casinos do not include gas stations, bars, convenience and grocery stores with slot machines. Check the AGA website for how these are defined:

    "Commercial casino locations do not include other forms of commercial gaming, such as bars, taverns or truck stops with video lottery terminals, video gaming terminals or electronic gaming devices, animal racetracks without gaming machines such as horse and dog tracks, slot-route operation locations, instant racing terminal locations or off-track betting operations, lottery/retail locations, card rooms, standalone sportsbooks, or other locations in which gaming is incidental to the location’s primary business."
    Cruise 4 miles of 10th Ave. South in Great Falls, Montana and you will see 40 signs that say CASINO. And gambling is their primary business, not booze or gas or food.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

    Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).
    You could not be more wrong redietz. Tribal casinos have to get approval from state and local governments, just like a state run casinos. They exist for the same reason non-Tribal casinos exist. To generate revenue for state and local governments.

    If you think you're right, why aren’t there casinos in every state? At one time all our land was Indian land. Why doesn’t Texas have casinos? Because that state won’t let them in.

  10. #10
    It's true that tribal casinos do generate some revenue for government but the intent of tribal casinos is to generate revenue for the tribe. Unfortunately sometimes the tribe has only a dozen members.

    Note the following:

    Casino ventures between companies and small tribes are particularly controversial. According to Timothy Egan, in “Lawsuit in California Asks, Whose Tribe Is It, Anyway?” (New York Times, April 10, 2002), critics suggest that small tribes are being manipulated by outside investors who only want to cash in on tribal casinos. The California Nations Indian Gaming Association insists that small tribes should not be denied the tremendous economic opportunities offered by casinos. Egan notes that Susan Jensen, a spokesperson for the group, said, “The reason some of these tribes have only one or two people left is because Indians were exterminated.”
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 03-28-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    It's true that tribal casinos do generate some revenue for government but the intent of tribal casinos is to generate revenue for the tribe. Unfortunately sometimes the tribe has only a dozen members.

    Note the following:

    Casino ventures between companies and small tribes are particularly controversial. According to Timothy Egan, in “Lawsuit in California Asks, Whose Tribe Is It, Anyway?” (New York Times, April 10, 2002), critics suggest that small tribes are being manipulated by outside investors who only want to cash in on tribal casinos. The California Nations Indian Gaming Association insists that small tribes should not be denied the tremendous economic opportunities offered by casinos. Egan notes that Susan Jensen, a spokesperson for the group, said, “The reason some of these tribes have only one or two people left is because Indians were exterminated.”
    I disagree with your assessment of the tribal casinos but we should really start a new thread on this subject. The main reason tribal casinos exists is no different than why any other casinos exist. The tribal casinos is basically a loophole local governments use to allow them to bring casinos into their area.

    What I’ve found is most APs don’t understand the Tribal casino situation either.

    I lived in Connecticut for 7 years and found the whole Indian casino thing fascinating. Different tribes of Indians were constantly trying to get casinos approved but the Foxwoods and MS group had more political power and got these casinos stopped. It was interesting keeping up with it. Bottom line is Indian casinos are still under US law.

  12. #12
    “The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s”

    C’mon man! The casino’s primary purpose is to generate revenue for the casino

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    “The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s”

    C’mon man! The casino’s primary purpose is to generate revenue for the casino
    Here’s what you're missing. State and local governments would never approve them if they didn’t get something from them. They know the downside of casinos. Pretty much everybody who wasn’t born under a rock knows the downsides of casinos.

    The casino industry and shareholders can NOT operate casinos without the government’s approval.

    As with all businesses, a business makes more money than it pays in taxes. Yes, I get that. That’s pretty much common sense. As with an individual, a business only pays a portion of its earnings to the govement in taxes. A casino is under the same tax laws as other businesses.

    Casinos and lotteries are in the same boat. They both have been legalized by our government as a way to generate more revenue for our government. It’s that simple!

    Here’s an interesting statistic I’ve seen somewhere. Casinos generate more revenue than the theee major sports (NFL, NBA and MLB) and movie industry combinded. So guess what that means? Casinos generate more revenue for our government than all these businesses combined. Let that sink in for a while. People in our country love their casinos.

  14. #14
    Yes I get that. They have to give revenue to the government to operate. But you stated the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for the government. Again the primary purpose of a casino is to generate revenue for its owners and the revenue it pays to the government is a cost of doing business.

    I disagree with your assertion that their primary purpose is to generate revenue for the government. Ask Bugsy Seigel, Benny Binion, Howard Hughes, Steve Wynn, etc etc if they got up one day and said “I need a way to generate revenue for the government. What would be the best way to do it? I know! Go into the casino business so that I can generate revenue for the government!” No they went into the casino business with the primary purpose of generating profit for themselves and with the understanding they would have to pay taxes to the government as a cost of doing business. (The ones that actually paid taxes and didn’t illegally skim the profits)

  15. #15
    Bob21wrote:

    "The casinos primary purpose is to generate revenue for state and local government’s. You can think of them as voluntary tax programs for the state, similar to why most states have lotteries."


    "To summarize, casinos are run by private businesses for the purpose of generating revenue for our government. That’s why it makes no sense to criticize casinos for doing what their business model calls for."



    Now that is not right Blob. What the casinos "private business" payout to the government in annual license fees and percentages of gaming revenue are considered expenses "cost of doing business" to the companies themselves. Or said another way grease the wheel so to speak. Either way far greater percentages of the profits are dispersed to the shareholders. Most of this dispersment money to shareholders leaves the states never to return again.


    Now back to what the States receive in guaranteed contract percentages in give back agreements money's from casinos are in fact very lucrative sums, to say the least. Subsequently, in my mind that fact alone makes the State's actual shareholders "in some form of capacity" in those businesses themselves. Now this next fact is important, States run their own Gaming Commissions which in essense cannot make them independant bodies who are supposed to be looking out for the better good of it's citizens. What I am saying is in my mind States have no business making up gaming regulations as it is a conflict of interest on whom they are looking out for. No other way to say it. That is one of the reasons for all the new shitty gaming rules turning up everywhere in the country. Alan maybe you can do a story?
    Last edited by BoSox; 03-28-2019 at 10:51 AM.

  16. #16
    “Anyway, I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to agree on this, but you should at least understand legal casinos can NOT operate without our government approving them. I hope we can at least agree on that point”

    Yep, agree with that. Will add that when governments approve casinos I don’t think the public’s interest is first and foremost in their mind. It’s the revenue. Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions. And then they usually give one or two casinos a monopoly in an area with the logic being they are protecting the public by limiting gaming growth in the area when in realty the lack of competition in an area will allow a casino to offer horrible odds to its players.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    “Anyway, I’m pretty sure we aren’t going to agree on this, but you should at least understand legal casinos can NOT operate without our government approving them. I hope we can at least agree on that point”

    Yep, agree with that. Will add that when governments approve casinos I don’t think the public’s interest is first and foremost in their mind. It’s the revenue. Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions. And then they usually give one or two casinos a monopoly in an area with the logic being they are protecting the public by limiting gaming growth in the area when in realty the lack of competition in an area will allow a casino to offer horrible odds to its players.
    We’re in complete agreement on all your comments in this post. Our government is just as shady (probably more so) than any of the casino operators. I agree...most the time the public’s interest is not considered when governments approve casinos.

    Governments (both local and state) have sold out to get quick easy revenue from casinos. Texas is one state that has held out and not legalized casinos. The problem is all the revenue they’re losing to boardering states (Louisiana and Oklahoma). There’s a reason WinStar (located across their boarder in Oklahoma) is the worlds largest casino. They are catering to the Dallas crowd. Texans love to gamble even though their state has no legal casinos. If Texas should ever legalize casinos, WinStar will be in a heap of trouble.

    A couple states and local towns have some principles and have resisted casinos. I’m proud to say I live in one of those cities. Everytime I see the casinos initiative on the ballot, I vote no. The last thing I want is a casino in my city. I wonder how long we’ll be able to hold out. Casinos get closer to being approved everytime it’s on the ballot.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions.
    Bingo. This is why casinos will continue to proliferate in states which already have casinos and why states like Texas, which don't have them, will probably approve legislation to build some in the not to distant future. Mickey already pointed out what happens to the people in a town when casinos initially hit a new area - so it really makes it clear how much the states cares about their citizenry versus protecting and growing their pensions.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Gotta be able to fund those cushy government pensions.
    Bingo. This is why casinos will continue to proliferate in states which already have casinos and why states like Texas, which don't have them, will probably approve legislation to build some in the not to distant future. Mickey already pointed out what happens to the people in a town when casinos initially hit a new area - so it really makes it clear how much the states cares about their citizenry versus protecting and growing their pensions.
    Double bingo. I think you’re the first one of this forum that gets what I’m saying, and I agree with you about Texas. It’s only a matter of time until Texas legalize casinos. They already have a lottery so it’s just a matter of time before they approve casinos.

    This has been my point all along. If you have a problem with casinos, don’t get upset with casinos...take it up with your government.

    A casinos’s primary purpose is to generate revenue (tax or sharing revenue in the case of Indian casinos) for the government. A casino is basically government’s voluntary tax center. That’s why govenrments legalize them even though they understand the downside (which is not the casino’s fault) that comes with them.

  20. #20
    There is some very strange assertions in this thread.

    All tribal casinos are exempt from paying fed. taxes.

    Here in Az. where there are some big Indian joints, they do not pay the state corporate income tax, and Indians who earn wages on property are exempt from paying state income tax.

    Other than that, casinos' sole purpose for opening are to generate revenue for themselves. Obviously. States have the right to negotiate for a part of their net profiting, but it is rarely agreed upon.

    (Indians open casinos so their executive board members can drink all the firewater they like)

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