Casino’s Mission

[Bob21]

There is some very strange assertions in this thread.

All tribal casinos are exempt from paying fed. taxes.

Here in Az. where there are some big Indian joints, they do not pay the state corporate income tax, and Indians who earn wages on property are exempt from paying state income tax.

Other than that, casinos' sole purpose for opening are to generate revenue for themselves. Obviously. States have the right to negotiate for a part of their net profiting, but it is rarely agreed upon.

(Indians open casinos so their executive board members can drink all the firewater they like)

Rob, I just spent some time on the internet researching the Arizona Indian casino situation. You’re right, they pay no federal taxes on their revenue. But here’s what you’re missing. In 2002, the voters of Arizona approved Proposition 202 which shared a potion of gaming revenue from Indian casinos with the State of Arizina and local governments. So I guess, technically you’re right. The Indian casinos don’t get taxed...they just share their revenue with the state.

I also found Connecticut receives 25% of the hold on slot machines and Pennsylvania receives 50% hold from their Indian casinos.

So I guess if you want to get technical, Indian casinos don’t pay taxes. They just share their revenue with state and local governments. Could you please explain this distinction to me?

While I didn’t know what the situation was between state and local governments with Indian casinos, I knew the governments were getting something. Why? Because I didn’t fall off a turnip truck yesterday and I was born with some common sense. I’ve noticed this is lacking in the gambling and AP community. Lol.

I encourage you to do some research on your own. I think you’ll be surprised at what you find.

[Bob21]

Well, ring the bell -- Argentino and I see eye to eye on another topic.

Yeah, there are some strange -- and wrong -- assertions here. Kind of makes one wonder why somebody starts a thread when they don't know anything about half the casinos in this country.

In many ways, tribal casinos are a way for Native Americans to collect their own reparations from the mathematically challenged American tourist population.

So you’re saying Indian casinos pay no local or state taxes? Maybe it’s not called taxes but they pay something to the state and local entities for the right to operate their casinos. I think you’re right, it’s called something else, but it’s still revenue going to local governments. If you’re going to make such an accusation, please support it with some references.

I’m shocked at how little APs know about the casino industry. It looks like they get most of their information from word of mouth and speculation. Do some research and you might be surprised at what you find.

I'm no AP, at least in the marginalized sense of the word. But while you're requesting supporting info on the facts I laid out, it'd be nice if you first produce evidence of your initial assertions. I know there will be none because it's all just a click away on the internet. You should have listened to redietz.

And I'll even clip your wings a little more before you try to proclaim that those who win in casinos are big time taxpayers. First, most people lose, and the vast majority of those who receive W2G's incur overall more losses than they win. But let's stick with the "winners" for now, shall we?

We'll first use kew as an example. The character he's created wins every year playing bj. Let's say he claimed a net income of $88,000 in 2018. He's likely received zero W2G's. Now it doesn't take an MBA like me to ascertain that he'd have to be the absolute dumbest bazooka to come down the gambling pike not to have also claimed $88,000 in losses--IF he files a tax return. No AP gambler looks for ways to pay taxes.

Next we'll shift gears to mickeycrimm. The character HE'S created on the internet claims to beat up casinos to the tune of $100,000+ every year! He also claims to rarely, if ever, receive W2G's, because he's a low level player. Now, should he be an avid filer of tax returns, do you actually believe he would not deduct losses equal to his winnings, or do you think he would truthfully report his net winnings so he could happily cut a check for $21,000 to the IRS on April 15th?

Wise up.

Hey Rob, where are you coming from with this post? I never said gamblers pay taxes on their winnings. Nothing you’ve said in your post has anything to do with the points I’ve been trying to make.

My main point is don’t blame casinos for operating and doing what their business model calls for. If you don’t like them, blame our government for allowing them to operate.

I really don’t know what points you’re trying to make with your post. In fact, I think I agree with it. Your post kind of went in a different direction than what I was trying to say.

I think some in the AP and gambling community need to take a reading comprehension course.

[Rob.Singer]

I certainly do not blame casinos for operating. They have been very kind to me over the years.

Thank you, capitalism and government.

[The Boz]

I certainly do not blame casinos for operating. They have been very kind to me over the years.

Thank you, capitalism and government.

By any chance are you the guy who offered to suck me off outside the Battle Mountain Truck Stop Monday night? They guy claimed to have a 9 1/2 cock and also claimed to be able to turn the $20 he wanted for swallowing into $100,000 in minutes on a VP machine.

Probably just a strange coincidence.

And I’m sure that ramshackle RV he stumbled back to wasn’t actually his.

[redietz]

For the record, there is no "Indian gaming" in Pennsylvania. There are no "Indian casinos" or "Indian bingo halls."

The numbers I listed above (45% of U.S. revenue and close to 500 U.S. casinos) were referring to Native-American gaming. The casinos in Pennsylvania that have been purchased by tribes are not considered, and their numbers do not count towards, the Native American numbers. Tribes bought casinos on non-tribal land in Pennsylvania because they made incredible amounts of money from their tribal-land casinos and want to ameliorate the effects of more and more states legalizing gambling. So if the tribes have no land in those newly-legal states, they pony up the money to buy casinos outright. These casinos are considered state-regulated and non-tribal, and they pay taxes.

But these are not "Indian gaming."

[Bob21]

For the record, there is no "Indian gaming" in Pennsylvania. There are no "Indian casinos" or "Indian bingo halls."

The numbers I listed above (45% of U.S. revenue and close to 500 U.S. casinos) were referring to Native-American gaming. The casinos in Pennsylvania that have been purchased by tribes are not considered, and their numbers do not count towards, the Native American numbers. Tribes bought casinos on non-tribal land in Pennsylvania because they made incredible amounts of money from their tribal-land casinos and want to ameliorate the effects of more and more states legalizing gambling. So if the tribes have no land in those newly-legal states, they pony up the money to buy casinos outright. These casinos are considered state-regulated and non-tribal, and they pay taxes.

But these are not "Indian gaming."

Redietz, I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with this post. It looks like you’re agreeing with me. My point, in case you missed it, is the state and local govenrments still receive a lot of revenue from Indian casinos. In many cases, more than from non-Indian casinos. You can call it taxes, revenue sharing or whatever, but Indian casinos contribute to local governments.

The Indian gaming regulation act is not what people think. It’s pretty complicated and has gone before the Supreme Court many times. States and local governments still need to approve Indian casinos. They aren’t going to approve them if there’s not something in it for them. Remember, in the big cowboys vs Indian war, the cowboys won.

As far as Pennsylvania, Mohegan Sun tribe in Connecticut bought Pocono Downs race track and has slot machines on this property where they share revenue with the state. Maybe you were trying to make some technical point that the Indian properties are regulated differently in Pennsylvania than other states. Okay, I’ll give you that. I expect each state probably handles indian casinos differently.

This belief that APs have that the Tribal casinos revenue is only for the Indians is very misguided. These casinos are pretty much like all the others. They provide revenue to state and local governments. They exist because state and local governments want them.

[redietz]

For the record, there is no "Indian gaming" in Pennsylvania. There are no "Indian casinos" or "Indian bingo halls."

The numbers I listed above (45% of U.S. revenue and close to 500 U.S. casinos) were referring to Native-American gaming. The casinos in Pennsylvania that have been purchased by tribes are not considered, and their numbers do not count towards, the Native American numbers. Tribes bought casinos on non-tribal land in Pennsylvania because they made incredible amounts of money from their tribal-land casinos and want to ameliorate the effects of more and more states legalizing gambling. So if the tribes have no land in those newly-legal states, they pony up the money to buy casinos outright. These casinos are considered state-regulated and non-tribal, and they pay taxes.

But these are not "Indian gaming."

Redietz, I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with this post. It looks like you’re agreeing with me. My point, in case you missed it, is the state and local govenrments still receive a lot of revenue from Indian casinos. In many cases, more than from non-Indian casinos. You can call it taxes, revenue sharing or whatever, but Indian casinos contribute to local governments.

The Indian gaming regulation act is not what people think. It’s pretty complicated and has gone before the Supreme Court many times. States and local governments still need to approve Indian casinos. They aren’t going to approve them if there’s not something in it for them. Remember, in the big cowboys vs Indian war, the cowboys won.

As far as Pennsylvania, Mohegan Sun tribe in Connecticut bought Pocono Downs race track and has slot machines on this property where they share revenue with the state. Maybe you were trying to make some technical point that the Indian properties are regulated differently in Pennsylvania than other states. Okay, I’ll give you that. I expect each state probably handles indian casinos differently.

This belief that APs have that the Tribal casinos revenue is only for the Indians is very misguided. These casinos are pretty much like all the others. They provide revenue to state and local governments. They exist because state and local governments want them.

Tribal casinos exist outside the purview and jurisdiction of state and local governments. That is my point. They do not have to share revenue with anyone. The 50% tax you quoted regarding a Pennsylvania casino is non-tribal by definition.

There are no "Indian casinos" in Pennsylvania. I can't make it more clear than this.

Argentino -- take a stab at this, if you will. https://500nations.com/Pennsylvania_Casinos.asp

[kewlJ]

Here is my knowledge concerning Indian Casinos. Some of the legal knowledge comes from public and private things said by gambling Attorney Bob Nersesian.

So casinos built on Indian land and run by Indians not only fall outside the jurisdiction of any kind of state gaming commission, but anyone having any kind of legal issue, like an illegal back-rooming or assault by casino security has to take the matter not through the normal legal process but through the tribal court. Foxwood for example besides casino security, has it's own police force, jail, and tribal court. A players chance of winning any kind of legal dispute is about the same as seeing 18 y.o.'s in a row.

About the time I was relocating to Las Vegas in late 2009, in the blackjack community on the forums, all the rave was the Indian casinos in the Midwest. Places like upstate Michigan and Wisconsin. The kind of places we see on Mickeycrimm's tour. At a time that blackjack games all over the country were deteriorating, with rules such as H17 and that nasty blackjack pays 6:5, the Midwest Indian casinos still offered s17 3:2 blackjack with amazing penetration. Lots of players were raving about these conditions. One of my buddy's suggested that I relocate to the Midwest for a few years. Of course I didn't. I wanted no part of unregulated casinos.

So funny thing over the next couple years, those games that on paper looked like a goldmine, blackjack card counters as group, didn't fair so well. Many if not lost outright severely underperformed expectation. And as a group this amounted to a fairly significant sample size. What I am saying is those games weren't as great as they appeared to be on paper for whatever reason. And many card counter AP's stopped flocking to the Midwest Indian casinos. I don't know what the status is today, I'll leave it to some of the Midwest players to weigh in on that.

Now I have been mostly talking about Indian Casinos, run by Indians, or I guess Native Americans is the politically correct term, on Indian land. They don't have to follow any rules or even laws. But in a discussion on another forum I asked the question about a situation like Sands Pa. For those that don't know Sands was sold just about a year ago, to an Indian Tribe in Alabama, who now owns and runs the casino. (Some of my friends in the area have really complained about how the casino has gone down hill). So my question is, that Sands is NOT Indian land. There is no reservation in the middle of Bethlehem Pa. So in a case like this are they required to follow Pennsylvania Gaming commission rules and regulations? Or is there some bizarre loophole where the little bit of land that the casino sits on is recognized as independent Indian land?

[Bob21]

For the record, there is no "Indian gaming" in Pennsylvania. There are no "Indian casinos" or "Indian bingo halls."

The numbers I listed above (45% of U.S. revenue and close to 500 U.S. casinos) were referring to Native-American gaming. The casinos in Pennsylvania that have been purchased by tribes are not considered, and their numbers do not count towards, the Native American numbers. Tribes bought casinos on non-tribal land in Pennsylvania because they made incredible amounts of money from their tribal-land casinos and want to ameliorate the effects of more and more states legalizing gambling. So if the tribes have no land in those newly-legal states, they pony up the money to buy casinos outright. These casinos are considered state-regulated and non-tribal, and they pay taxes.

But these are not "Indian gaming."

Redietz, I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with this post. It looks like you’re agreeing with me. My point, in case you missed it, is the state and local govenrments still receive a lot of revenue from Indian casinos. In many cases, more than from non-Indian casinos. You can call it taxes, revenue sharing or whatever, but Indian casinos contribute to local governments.

The Indian gaming regulation act is not what people think. It’s pretty complicated and has gone before the Supreme Court many times. States and local governments still need to approve Indian casinos. They aren’t going to approve them if there’s not something in it for them. Remember, in the big cowboys vs Indian war, the cowboys won.

As far as Pennsylvania, Mohegan Sun tribe in Connecticut bought Pocono Downs race track and has slot machines on this property where they share revenue with the state. Maybe you were trying to make some technical point that the Indian properties are regulated differently in Pennsylvania than other states. Okay, I’ll give you that. I expect each state probably handles indian casinos differently.

This belief that APs have that the Tribal casinos revenue is only for the Indians is very misguided. These casinos are pretty much like all the others. They provide revenue to state and local governments. They exist because state and local governments want them.

Tribal casinos exist outside the purview and jurisdiction of state and local governments. That is my point. They do not have to share revenue with anyone. The 50% tax you quoted regarding a Pennsylvania casino is non-tribal by definition.

There are no "Indian casinos" in Pennsylvania. I can't make it more clear than this.

Argentino -- take a stab at this, if you will. https://500nations.com/Pennsylvania_Casinos.asp

Look I haven’t spent much time researching this, but I spent enough time to see that in some states Indian casinos SHARE revenue with their state. Rob made a big deal that Arizona Indian casinos are not taxed. I look into and in no time find Arizona Indian casinos SHARE revenue with state and local governments.

Two of the largest Indian casinos in America are Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun. I’ve heard over and over again that these are sovereign casinos with no government oversight. What do I find out with almost no research? That both share 25% of their slot revenue with the state. In case you didn’t know, this is where casinos make most of their money.

Okay, there are no Indian casinos in Pennsylvania. Indian entities only own gambling facilities in Pennsylvania. I’ll give you that. Good catch Sherlock. What was your point?

Here’s something you and kj and your Bob the lawyer guy that all of you have made into “god like” status need to think about. Don’t you think there has to be some oversight of the Indian casinos if they are sharing revenue with the state. Wouldn’t you think the state is at least auditing their books?

Here’s something else to think about. Many Indian casinos are NOT even run by Indians. Indians (probably two or three people who are 1/16 Indian) just get to keep some of the revenue. For example, Harrah’s runs some Indian casinos. You think Harrah’s is using a different system to run Indian casinos than their own? Come on man, get a life.

You guys and your belief that Indian casinos are so different than other casinos makes no sense. I’m sure there is some technical difference. But for the most part they are run the same way and they are all approved by local and state governments and they all contribute to local and state governments.

[mickeycrimm]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

Just checked the AGA, and found:

"At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."

There are 1700 casinos in Montana.

[mickeycrimm]

Casinos are in business for one thing and one thing only, to make a profit. The taxes they pay are nothing more than what the states charge them to operate.

[Alan Mendelson]

Tribal casinos, of which there are close to 500, do not operate according to Bob21's precepts. They generate close to half of all gaming revenue in the United States (45% or thereabouts).

Other than that, Bob21 is spot on (that was sarcasm).

The American Gaming Association reports there were 640 casinos operating in the US in 2017. Are 500 of them Indian casinos?

Just checked the AGA, and found:

"At the close of 2018, there were 979 casino gaming locations in the United States. These are tribal gaming locations as defined by the National Indian Gaming Commission and commercial casino locations that are licensed, individual land-based casinos, riverboat casinos, racetrack casinos (racinos) and jai alai frontons."

There are 1700 casinos in Montana.

I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for posting this. What a wonderful feeling you must have being able to set the record straight by saying there are 1700 casinos in Montana. But regardless of the sign on the door, places of business such as bars and restaurants and gas stations with a limited number of machines are NOT considered to be casinos.

So before this turns into 20 pages of arguing over definitions and the typical insulting that every thread evolves into because of absentee weak management let me say that the numbers used above by the AGA and quoted for the Native Indian Casinos do not include gas stations, bars, convenience and grocery stores with slot machines. Check the AGA website for how these are defined:

"Commercial casino locations do not include other forms of commercial gaming, such as bars, taverns or truck stops with video lottery terminals, video gaming terminals or electronic gaming devices, animal racetracks without gaming machines such as horse and dog tracks, slot-route operation locations, instant racing terminal locations or off-track betting operations, lottery/retail locations, card rooms, standalone sportsbooks, or other locations in which gaming is incidental to the location’s primary business."

[Bob21]

Casinos are in business for one thing and one thing only, to make a profit. The taxes they pay are nothing more than what the states charge them to operate.

Agreed! But take it a step further. Why do states allow casinos to operate? So they can generate more revenue. It’s that simple.

The reason casinos are different than other business is because no true value is being created. This is why they are called a “zero sum” game. Typically, governments try to legalize businesses that grow an economy, and increase a person’s standard of living. Casinos do not do that. All they do is transfer money from one party to the other.

This is what i’m trying to drive home to APs, but I can tell most don’t get it. Mickey, I think you do. The casino is functioning the way it should. It’s doing nothing wrong. If you don’t like casinos, you should take it up with our government and get them shut down.

I have no problem with casinos and will never say anything bad about them. They hold the higher moral ground between the AP and the casino. The casino is providing jobs, entertainment and tax revenue to the government. An AP is just being a parasite, and indirectly extracting revenue from the government.

You could make the argument that an AP is trying to destabilize our government. By the way, I’m not going that far.

[Alan Mendelson]

Casinos are not a zero sum game. Profits are extracted which means they aren't zero sum.

[Bob21]

Casinos are not a zero sum game. Profits are extracted which means they aren't zero sum.

You’re missing the point on what “zero sum” means. The profits come from someone who lost. The person who lost got nothing for his money. In a normal Business, you get something for your money, food, a car, a house; etc, when you “lose your money” (basically pay for something). In a casino when you lose money, you get nothing, except entertainment. And as you said, the other side gets a profit. Thus, “zero sum”.

This is why you can think of casinos as a voluntary tax center, for the uneducated, poor, and math challenged people.

[Alan Mendelson]

No, Bob21. I'm afraid you don't know what zero sum means.

The commodity market is zero sum. I give you 1,000 barrels of oil and you give me $59,000. That's zero sum. We each got something in our deal.

When I make a $5 bet at video poker and lose that is not zero sum. I lost $5.

When I make a $5 bet and hit two pair for $10 the casino loses and that's not zero sum either.

"In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain or loss of utility is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the utility of the other participants."

[Bob21]

No, Bob21. I'm afraid you don't know what zero sum means.

The commodity market is zero sum. I give you 1,000 barrels of oil and you give me $59,000. That's zero sum. We each got something in our deal.

When I make a $5 bet at video poker and lose that is not zero sum. I lost $5.

When I make a $5 bet and hit two pair for $10 the casino loses and that's not zero sum either.

"In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which each participant's gain or loss of utility is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the utility of the other participants."

Then I guess our definitions are different. Answer me this question? What value is being created in a casino, besides entertainment?

All that is going on in the casino is a transfer of money from one party to the other with no value being created (if you exclude the value of someone enjoying losing money). For most people, that’s called “zero sum”.

If there was some value being created with casinos or gambling, they would have been legalized long before 1931.

[Alan Mendelson]

Bob21 I'll be honest with you: casinos are a business much like any of the other sin businesses including alcohol and tobacco and prostitution. It provides a product or service that government and voters have allowed.

In Hawaii and Utah the government and the voters do not allow casinos. In parts of Nevada prostitution is allowed.

[Bob21]

Think of it this way Alan. If I give you $10, and you give me back $9, I am one dollar poorer and you are one dollar richer. Thus, “zero sum”. But since the Government gets involved in this transaction (assuming it occurred in a casino), they tax that one dollar and take a cut out of it. The government considers that one dollar you won from me as profit. Obviously, the tax amount would be less than on $1 since some would come out for operating expenses.

This is why casinos can be considered voluntary tax centers. People don’t have to go to casinos and donate money to them and our government.

By the way I’m not the only person that believes casinos is a zero sum game a lot of high-level economistist have called it is “zero sum” game too. I get that your definition is different

[Bob21]

Bob21 I'll be honest with you: casinos are a business much like any of the other sin businesses including alcohol and tobacco and prostitution. It provides a product or service that government and voters have allowed.

In Hawaii and Utah the government and the voters do not allow casinos. In parts of Nevada prostitution is allowed.

I agree with Alan. We’re on the same page. The value they provide is entertainment. I’ve alway pointed this out. We are in total agreement.