Alan, have you read any of my post? I have always pointed out the value proposition of a casino. It’s to provide negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment. It’s that simple. And I see nothing wrong with that. That’s why I don’t criticize casinos. They are functioning the way their business model calls for.
If people have a problem with casinos, they should take it up with the government that allows them to operate. They should not criticize casinos. That has made my point all along.
Alan, I’ll add one more comment. If you consider entertainment as value than you are correct, casinos are not a “zero sum” game. The economist who see casinos as a “zero sum” game don’t consider the entertainment side of the equation.
And yes, there are a lot of economist that consider casinos a “zero sum” game. It really depends on how you define “zero sum”.
Let's take a different form of entertainment. The movies.
Do you consider a movie theater charging $10 for a ticket as a zero sum game?
I guess you could if you value the movie theater experience as worth $10. But to the movie theater company it is not zero sum because they don't keep the $10.
From that $10 the movie theater company has to pay for the movie shown, and for the buikding, taxes, employees, utilities, etc, and what's left over is profit that goes to shareholders.
Frankly your definition of zero sum is flawed and this entire thread and argument is just... well I was going to say silly.
Casinos were created to provide a service -- gambling. Society wanted that service provided. Government taxes that service just like it taxes the sale of cars and liquor and cigarettes.
Depending where you live taxes will vary. In California they tried to tax advertising but the voters said no. Also in California they tax new home purchases more than homes that were purchased years earlier -- and that's what the voters wanted.
Your entire argument seems convoluted to me.
Alan, have you read any of my posts? You and I are on the same page. We’re saying the same thing. Movies, ball games, casinos, they’re all entertainment. That’s their value. I get it.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
That has been my point all along. Don’t criticize casinos when they’re doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.
If people have a problem with casino take it up with our government... don’t criticize casinos. Our government has legalized them to generate revenue for state and local governments. At their core, casinos are voluntary tax centers for the government
Here is the problem conservatives have with casinos. It’s exactly what Mickey and other people have already pointed out. When a new movie theater opens, a city’s bankruptcy, crime, etc don’t go up. This is not the case with casinos. When casinos open up in new communities, bankruptcies, crime, etc increase. I get that. Most people understand that downside of casinos. That’s why a lot of states and local governments don’t allow casinos in their city and state. And at one time our entire country made casinos illegal.
Like I said, I feel we’re arguing and we shouldn’t be. I think you and I are really on the same side of the coin on this one.
Bob21 wrote:
Don’t criticize casinos when they’re doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.
What is it they're supposed to do? Yes, I'm going to criticize casinos that don't keep out minors. I'm going to criticize casinos that keep serving alcohol to drunk patrons. I'm going to criticize casinos that don't stop panhandling. I'm going to criticize casinos that don't keep their parking lots clean and safe.
It will be a sad day when we need the government to run everything.
Agreed! As with all business, if they are breaking the law, they should be criticized and prosecuted. That’s true with all businesses. There is no industry that doesn’t have some bad apples. Grocery stores have been caught cheating with inaccurate scales...I could go on and on. I get it. If a business is doing something wrong, they should be held accountable and prosecuted. That’s why we have laws.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
But it makes no sense to hold casinos accountable when crime and bankruptcy go up in a town that approves a casino. A casino should not be held accountable for the actions of every person in a town. That’s what liberals like to do. Based on past history, everybody should know what will happen when a casino opens, bankruptcies and crime will go up. The reason governments still allow casino into their community is because they like the revenue casinos generate.
I stand by my comments. Casinos should not be blamed for the downside that inevitably occurs when a casino opens. The blame should go to our government for allowing them into their community. If a casino breaks the law, then, yes, they should be held accountable. That’s true for any business or individual who breaks the law.
Last edited by Bob21; 03-29-2019 at 06:58 AM.
The Pequot Tribe isn't even real Indians. Here's a little history lesson for you.Originally Posted by Bob21
In the 70's the United States Government was monitoring the last of the dwindling Pequot Indian Tribe in Connecticut. In the late 70 after the last remaining member passed away, the United States and state of Connecticut, in a power grab, grabbed all of the reservation land, and sold it off to developers, who proceeded to build hundreds of expensive (for that time) homes throughout the land that was formally the Pequot reservation. Several years into this project a group of people show up, I am going to say maybe 30-50 but don't hold me to that number, claiming to be members of the Pequot Indian Tribe and rightful owners of that land. They sue the State of Connecticut and the federal government for multi-hundreds of millions (again time frame). The story is covered on 60 minutes where the "tribe members" begin to garner huge support. Several of the early preliminary cases go against the government. It isn't just about the land but there are now hundreds of families living in these newly built expensive communities.
At this point The United states Congress, agrees to terms with this "Pequot Indian" group and passes a bill that recognizes these people, most who have little or no Indian heritage at all, as the Pequot Indian tribe. The bill and settlement gives the "Tribe" back a section of the land that was seized that had not yet been developed and permission to built not a casino but a "gambling hall". Despite public support for the "Tribe" from national news coverage, President Reagan veto's the bill and agreement. But because of the public support, Congress is able to override the veto. And Presto, the Pequot Indian Tribe is reborn. The tribe then uses Asian financing to build the larges Casino in the world (at that time). Only in America.
What a surprise! The anti-AP, casino supporter, likely casino employee guy, doesn't like BoB Nersesian, the attorney who has brought the numerous casinos to their knees on behalf of AP's.Originally Posted by Bob21
Hey kj, I am not an anti-AP. I guess you could call me a “balanced” AP. I am an AP myself. When I see APs make misinformed comments about casinos, I correct them.Originally Posted by kewlJWhat a surprise! The anti-AP, casino supporter, likely casino employee guy, doesn't like BoB Nersesian, the attorney who has brought the numerous casinos to their knees on behalf of AP's.Originally Posted by Bob21
There are a lot of APs that don’t know why casinos exists. They think they just appear in communities like weeds. Most APs don’t know they have to get government approval before they can open. Why does the government approve them when they know the downsides that come with them? Because of all the revenue the casinos generate for the state and local governments.
I also point out the casinos business model, which most APs don’t understand or won’t acknowledge. When I say it’s to provide negative EV games for the purpose of entertainment, I almost always get some AP responding by saying “bullshit”. If that’s not their business model, I wish some AP could enlighten me on what it is. So far none have.
As far as Bob, in case you didn’t notice he gets paid for his services. He’s not doing anything out of the goodness or his heart or because he has some higher moral code. He’s basically an “ ambulance chaser “. There are quite a few lawyers out there like Bob. He’s found his niche with the AP crowd and holding casinos hostages over some trivial thing. I’m sure there are some legitimate cases, but I expect a lot of the cases the casino just pay him off to make them go away. He’s become a hero in the AP world since it doesn’t take much to be a hero in their world. Lol
I did unintentionally leave out a piece of information from the Pequot tribe story that was fairly significant. Not only did the Tribe file suit with The Federal Government, the State of Connecticut, and the developers, but they filed individual suits against each and every family that had moved into the hundred of homes they had purchased for trespassing. It was threating to become a huge legal nightmare for everyone involved, which is why Congress agreed to this settlement, despite knowing that these people were not Pequot Indians.
I am assuming this was pre-DNA testing, as that would have solved the problem pretty easily.
PLEASE bob21. Just save it for someone who cares. Your words on numerous forum clearly show who and what you are....a casino industry sympathizer/supporter.Originally Posted by Bob21
You saying all the shit you say and then attempting to say you are an AP yourself amounts to the same as a highly racist person spewing racist remark after racist remark and then saying "I am not a racist, I have a black friend".
For what it is worth, not only is my AP membership paid up in full, but I get to work the door and there is no way in hell I am letting you in the clubhouse or letting you get your hands on the Manual.
This is proof that you don't know Bob Nersesian or much about him. I suppose your knowledge is what is passed along from the Casino Industry that he beats so often.Originally Posted by Bob21
Of course Mr Nersesian wants to get paid for his services. But he has and will take on cases where he has not even recovered his expenses. And there wouldn't even be a need for a Bob Nersesian, if the casino industry wasn't the low life predatory business that it is, bullying and abusing patrons with illegal tactics, illegal detentions, illegal backroomings, physical abuse, illegal seizures, refusal to cash chips and pay patrons. Tell us some more how upstanding the casino industry is.
KewlJ,Originally Posted by kewlJThe Pequot Tribe isn't even real Indians. Here's a little history lesson for you.Originally Posted by Bob21
In the 70's the United States Government was monitoring the last of the dwindling Pequot Indian Tribe in Connecticut. In the late 70 after the last remaining member passed away, the United States and state of Connecticut, in a power grab, grabbed all of the reservation land, and sold it off to developers, who proceeded to build hundreds of expensive (for that time) homes throughout the land that was formally the Pequot reservation. Several years into this project a group of people show up, I am going to say maybe 30-50 but don't hold me to that number, claiming to be members of the Pequot Indian Tribe and rightful owners of that land. They sue the State of Connecticut and the federal government for multi-hundreds of millions (again time frame). The story is covered on 60 minutes where the "tribe members" begin to garner huge support. Several of the early preliminary cases go against the government. It isn't just about the land but there are now hundreds of families living in these newly built expensive communities.
At this point The United states Congress, agrees to terms with this "Pequot Indian" group and passes a bill that recognizes these people, most who have little or no Indian heritage at all, as the Pequot Indian tribe. The bill and settlement gives the "Tribe" back a section of the land that was seized that had not yet been developed and permission to built not a casino but a "gambling hall". Despite public support for the "Tribe" from national news coverage, President Reagan veto's the bill and agreement. But because of the public support, Congress is able to override the veto. And Presto, the Pequot Indian Tribe is reborn. The tribe then uses Asian financing to build the larges Casino in the world (at that time). Only in America.
Some of the things you say with accuracy is the fact that the Pequots have little or no Indian blood in their veins. Also you got Regan right.
Here is another history lesson.
In the early 1970's a young idealistic lawyer wanted to help the most wretched people in America. First he set out to find out who these people would be. He determined among the poorest of the poor in America were a group of native Americans living in the state of Maine.
The lawyer discovered these Indians and others like them in eastern states such as Ma. and Ct. along the East coast had no Federal Recognition like "Western Indians". Western Indians had the Interior Dept. or the Bureau of Indian Affairs looking out (however badly) for their interests.
He urged the grandson of the last remaining person living on a plot of land known as a Reservation in Ct. to apply for Federal recognition. Time was running out to act. From this humble beginning in the seventies many years later the great Casino that is Foxwoods was born.
It's a fascinating story I won't pretend to know all. Your story doesn't sound familer to me. I'll let it go at that.
Yes Bob. Who do you think you are? The gall to post on a forum and talk about something other than KJ. KJ wants to talk about KJ talk about KJ. So pleeeease Bob STFU!Originally Posted by kewlJ
It's probably his back door. lolOriginally Posted by kewlJFor what it is worth, not only is my AP membership paid up in full, but I get to work the door and there is no way in hell I am letting you in the clubhouse or letting you get your hands on the Manual.
The Moses homosexual obsession continues. It is ALWAYS the exact same story with these guys. They say they hate gay, but what they really hate is themselves for being gay.Originally Posted by UCFXIt's probably his back door. lolOriginally Posted by kewlJFor what it is worth, not only is my AP membership paid up in full, but I get to work the door and there is no way in hell I am letting you in the clubhouse or letting you get your hands on the Manual.
Just have the fucking balls to accept who you are Moses. No one even cares. Although Moses, the homeless Homo is pretty funny.
Using your logic, all business are predatory lowlifes just trying to take advantage of people. Why? Because all businesses get sued. Here’s a news flash for you kj. All business get sued regularly! This has become how some people make a living. Sueing businesses over next to nothing.Originally Posted by kewlJThis is proof that you don't know Bob Nersesian or much about him. I suppose your knowledge is what is passed along from the Casino Industry that he beats so often.Originally Posted by Bob21
Of course Mr Nersesian wants to get paid for his services. But he has and will take on cases where he has not even recovered his expenses. And there wouldn't even be a need for a Bob Nersesian, if the casino industry wasn't the low life predatory business that it is, bullying and abusing patrons with illegal tactics, illegal detentions, illegal backroomings, physical abuse, illegal seizures, refusal to cash chips and pay patrons. Tell us some more how upstanding the casino industry is.
The hotel businesses constantly gets sued by “the slip and fall getting out of the tub crowd”. Lol. There’s are bunch of “ambulance chaser” lawyers that work that circuit. Lol. Check the warning labels on some of your household items; they will make you laugh. They are there to combat all the frivolous lawsuits that come from the “ambulance chaser” lawyers.
Look, I’ve listened to Bob on GWAE and he seems like a decent person for an “ambulance chaser” type lawyer. Heck, I once had a good friend who was an “ambulance chaser” lawyer. I didn’t agree with what he did so we didn’t talk much about it.
Last edited by Bob21; 03-29-2019 at 12:13 PM.
Big deal. And yes, an interesting story. Thanks for the history lesson. My point is all casinos - indian, non-indian and in between indian - are approved by local and state governments and support local and state governments with revenue. There are no exceptions.Originally Posted by kewlJThe Pequot Tribe isn't even real Indians. Here's a little history lesson for you.Originally Posted by Bob21
In the 70's the United States Government was monitoring the last of the dwindling Pequot Indian Tribe in Connecticut. In the late 70 after the last remaining member passed away, the United States and state of Connecticut, in a power grab, grabbed all of the reservation land, and sold it off to developers, who proceeded to build hundreds of expensive (for that time) homes throughout the land that was formally the Pequot reservation. Several years into this project a group of people show up, I am going to say maybe 30-50 but don't hold me to that number, claiming to be members of the Pequot Indian Tribe and rightful owners of that land. They sue the State of Connecticut and the federal government for multi-hundreds of millions (again time frame). The story is covered on 60 minutes where the "tribe members" begin to garner huge support. Several of the early preliminary cases go against the government. It isn't just about the land but there are now hundreds of families living in these newly built expensive communities.
At this point The United states Congress, agrees to terms with this "Pequot Indian" group and passes a bill that recognizes these people, most who have little or no Indian heritage at all, as the Pequot Indian tribe. The bill and settlement gives the "Tribe" back a section of the land that was seized that had not yet been developed and permission to built not a casino but a "gambling hall". Despite public support for the "Tribe" from national news coverage, President Reagan veto's the bill and agreement. But because of the public support, Congress is able to override the veto. And Presto, the Pequot Indian Tribe is reborn. The tribe then uses Asian financing to build the larges Casino in the world (at that time). Only in America.
This guy's in as much denial about Indian casinos as Adam Schiff is about the absence of "Russian Collusion".Originally Posted by Bob21Big deal. And yes, an interesting story. Thanks for the history lesson. My point is all casinos - indian, non-indian and in between indian - are approved by local and state governments and support local and state governments with revenue. There are no exceptions.Originally Posted by kewlJThe Pequot Tribe isn't even real Indians. Here's a little history lesson for you.Originally Posted by Bob21
In the 70's the United States Government was monitoring the last of the dwindling Pequot Indian Tribe in Connecticut. In the late 70 after the last remaining member passed away, the United States and state of Connecticut, in a power grab, grabbed all of the reservation land, and sold it off to developers, who proceeded to build hundreds of expensive (for that time) homes throughout the land that was formally the Pequot reservation. Several years into this project a group of people show up, I am going to say maybe 30-50 but don't hold me to that number, claiming to be members of the Pequot Indian Tribe and rightful owners of that land. They sue the State of Connecticut and the federal government for multi-hundreds of millions (again time frame). The story is covered on 60 minutes where the "tribe members" begin to garner huge support. Several of the early preliminary cases go against the government. It isn't just about the land but there are now hundreds of families living in these newly built expensive communities.
At this point The United states Congress, agrees to terms with this "Pequot Indian" group and passes a bill that recognizes these people, most who have little or no Indian heritage at all, as the Pequot Indian tribe. The bill and settlement gives the "Tribe" back a section of the land that was seized that had not yet been developed and permission to built not a casino but a "gambling hall". Despite public support for the "Tribe" from national news coverage, President Reagan veto's the bill and agreement. But because of the public support, Congress is able to override the veto. And Presto, the Pequot Indian Tribe is reborn. The tribe then uses Asian financing to build the larges Casino in the world (at that time). Only in America.
Again, few if any tribal casinos pay state or local taxes on revenue. Oh....and ALL businesses, large & small, have to be approved by the local govt. regulations.
Wise up.
You’re right Indian casinos don’t pay taxes. They just share their revenue with state and local governments. What’s the difference?Originally Posted by Rob.SingerThis guy's in as much denial about Indian casinos as Adam Schiff is about the absence of "Russian Collusion".Originally Posted by Bob21Big deal. And yes, an interesting story. Thanks for the history lesson. My point is all casinos - indian, non-indian and in between indian - are approved by local and state governments and support local and state governments with revenue. There are no exceptions.Originally Posted by kewlJ
Again, few if any tribal casinos pay state or local taxes on revenue. Oh....and ALL businesses, large & small, have to be approved by the local govt. regulations.
Wise up.
I can tell most people are missing my point about state and local governments approving casinos. Ron said my point was convoluted. There is nothing convoluted about it.
On every gambling forum I’ve been on when I say something to defend casinos, I get the standard clueless AP who attaches a bunch of articles to his post showing me the evils of casinos. You know the standard thing that everybody knows...with casinos, comes increased bankruptcy, crime, etc. I think APs are the only people in the world that don’t know everybody already knows this.
I’ve never questioned this. What I’ve tried to point out is that this is not the casino’s fault. Unless you’re a liberal, you shouldn’t hold a casino accountable for something outside of their control. If you don’t want increased brankrupcies and crime then don’t let casinos come into your community...everybody knows this is a byproduct of casinos. And there’s nothing that can be done about it in a free society.
My point is blame the government for letting casinos in. Don’t blame casinos for doing what their business calls for. Don’t blame casinos for the actions of free individuals that are outside their control.
My guess is most APs probably still won’t understand this since most APs are liberals. Liberals are kind of slow, and like to blame some business for some problem in our society. For example, they blame McDonald’s for fat people.
Last edited by Bob21; 03-29-2019 at 02:58 PM.
A consequence of your argument seems to be that nobody can be blamed for doing anything harmful if it is legal.
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