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Thread: Shout out to all Casino Spies

  1. #21
    Bob21 wrote:

    "The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



    Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.

  2. #22
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.
    That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

  5. #25
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.
    That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.
    Any AP that sweats a loss is playing above his/her means.

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.
    That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.

    Nothing you just said applies to me. The AP's that survive do not worry about short term negative swings.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

    I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

    I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.
    Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

    If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.

  8. #28
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    Alan, I thought this was an excellent post. One thing I’ve found interesting about APs is they will never acknowledge the casino’s business model. When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.

    I’ve always wondered why APs are so reluctant to acknowledge casinos provide entertainment as their value to society. It’s most likely because then an AP would feel guilty about taking advantage of a business who’s primary purpose is to provide entertainment.

    Most people work at a job that provides some sort of value to society. An AP intuitively knows the way they make money provides no value to society. I think this is why full-time APs struggle going through life. I might be wrong but that’s what I think.

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.
    Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

    In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

    You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.

  10. #30
    The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

    Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

    I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

    I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.
    Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

    In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

    You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.
    Kewlj you're right. Casinos are evil. Let's shut them all down tomorrow.

    Now, what are you going to do to earn $85,000 a year?

  12. #32
    Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
    I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

    The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

    There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

    Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

    I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

    I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.
    Alan I am sorry that you take offense that I and others think you have some degenerate gambling addiction.

    No, everyone that visits casinos that is not an AP is not a degenerate gambler. There are many, many people that visit casinos occasionally for entertainment purposes.

    I don't know what the rules are, as far as frequency and money spent. But certain behaviors indicate a problem. Some of those behaviors would include.

    Someone that visit a a casino almost daily (who isn't playing with an advantage and making money)

    Someone that loses more than they can afford. (to the point that family members post their concerns on a public forum)

    Someone who's gambling life interferes with relationships with family members and grandchildren (again posted on public forum)

    Someone who moves to Las Vegas so they can gamble everyday.

    Someone who is broke halfway through the month.

    Someone who has numerous relationships/marriages that went bad because of their gambling.

    and finally someone who gets married in a casino! While you think this is cute and comical, it highlights a very unhealthy obsession.

    I know you are going to get all mad and probably nasty about these comments. It's just fact.


    Now the grey area would be someone that does visits casinos everyday or numerous times a week, and gambles but gambles within their means. Maybe someone with a very healthy retirement (like the guy here that pretends he is in that situation). These people aren't broke halfway through the month. They can afford what they lose. It is truly entertainment.

    I would equate that to some retired or well-off person that lives on or near a gold course and plays golf everyday. I mean it probably still falls under addition or obsessive behavior, but at least they are doing so within their means. THAT doesn't appear to be the case with those on this forum. And one big clue to that is just how bitter several members here are towards those that have actually learned and work at making money.

  14. #34
    Finally my hard work has paid off!!
    For over a year now I have been handing out flyers to every dealer, pit boss and security guard I run into.
    I was about to give up on this mission but this thread has confirmed that what I am doing is working.
    I need to order more printer paper and ink to get the word out against these evil doers.

    Please keep posting all information that you can on the web.
    It really helps when most of you doxx yourself as you have already done many times over.
    Thanks Again!

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
    I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

    The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

    There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.
    Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

    But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    My only recommendation for you is the same as what Stanford Wong recommends. Get a full-time job and do something that has value to society and do APing on the side part-time. This is not being a troll...this is giving good advice, advice that Stanford Wong has also given.

    I don’t know if you’ve heard of Stanford Wong but he’s a pillar in the AP community and a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame. I hope you don’t think he’s a troll because his advice is the same as mine.

    I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.
    Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

    If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.
    Here is the direct quote from Stanford Wong:

    “My advice is to keep advantage play part-time. Do something else with the major part of your time, something more valuable to society. You will find that more satisfying than becoming a full-time advantage player.”

    Where did I find this quote? In the book “I am a card counter”, by Frank Scoblete, published 2014, page 102.

    If that is no longer Stanford Wong’s view on APing then he should contact Frank Scoblete and have him take this out of his book. If Al Rogers thinks being a full-time AP is a good career choice than my view of Al Rogers has gone down several notches.
    Last edited by Bob21; 03-31-2019 at 09:05 PM.

  17. #37
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
    I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

    The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

    There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.
    Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

    But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.
    The lack of etiquette at craps is disturbing and only gets worse. I had no patience for hands on the table and late bets. I am not proud but I was known to fire dice at someone’s head that wouldn’t keep hands up. And I just wouldn’t allow it when I was dealing, especially when I was on stick. I did crack em with the stick too many times.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    When you ask them what a casino does, they’ll say something like prey on the vulnerable and poor. We all know a business model does not prey on something....it has to provide value or people won’t go to that business.
    Bob21, before direct deposit, for decades casino's cashed social security, so that the elderly could lose their monthly income right there at the casino on the 3rd of the month. Probably part of why SS went to direct deposit. So now casinos cash paychecks, and tax refund checks, enticing workers with some sort of bonus like free play or free drinks. They want to get that money before Daddy ever makes it home to pay the rent and buy groceries.

    In addition Casinos routinely overserve patrons, so they will not think clearly and lose all there money. Bars get fines for this. Casinos do this regularly. Anyone, and I mean anyone who spends any time in a casino has seen this over and over.

    You refusing to acknowledge this predatory behavior, is you not being honest. We have enough of that on this forum.
    Kewlj you're right. Casinos are evil. Let's shut them all down tomorrow.

    Now, what are you going to do to earn $85,000 a year?
    Ahem. that's $100K a year. lol Getting a job wouldn't work. Who would hire him? You'd have fire everyone he didn't like after a week to him to shut up.

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Alan-great point. Not everyone that gambles is a sick degenerate gambler, even if they usually lose. It is just one form of entertainment.
    I love to gamble. I don't deny that. But when I gambled professionally I grew to hate it because it became a job and was no longer entertainment. It didn't matter that I was making good money. It took all the fun out of what had been one of my main forms of entertainment.

    The same thing applies sometimes now that I play the horses professionally. When I played for entertainment, I might bet 60-80 races in a day. Now I sit there all day and might only bet a couple races and am bored out of my mind. It is not the same and is certainly less fun. I sometimes take an off day where I don't have any races I like and just bet them all for fun like i used to.

    There is a downside to making your entertainment your job.
    Regnis let me tell you something. I really admire the wealthy people here in Summerlin who go to Red Rock and Suncoast and drop several thousand and don't give a damn. These are mostly wealthy retirees.

    But I'll tell you what really bugs me about them: they have no consideration for others. They get angry when there's a line at the players club, and there's no regard for gambling etiquette at the craps tables: they'll buy in for $5,000 even as the shooter is getting ready to throw the dice or even when the dice are in the air they'll throw their money on the table.
    The lack of etiquette at craps is disturbing and only gets worse. I had no patience for hands on the table and late bets. I am not proud but I was known to fire dice at someone’s head that wouldn’t keep hands up. And I just wouldn’t allow it when I was dealing, especially when I was on stick. I did crack em with the stick too many times.
    Hands. Don't get me started. The worst is when some tourist is explaining the game to another tourist and starts pointing to the printed numbers and words on the layout -- while the dice are headed right to where they are.

    Late bets kill a good roll. No, it's not a superstition. When a player throws in a late bet, just when the shooter is about to let go of the dice, the shooter will change his delivery... and sometimes that means the dice go off the table or into the bank of chips.

    One other thing I can't understand. Why must players stand at the far ends of the tables and place their passline chips where everyone is throwing their dice? Everyone wants to avoid hitting chips. So why not stand on the sides or in the corners and leave the back wall area free and clear?

  20. #40
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


    Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.

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