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Thread: Shout out to all Casino Spies

  1. #41
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


    Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.
    Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

    Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

    Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

    And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

    Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

    And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

    One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

    Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

    And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 03-31-2019 at 11:39 PM.

  2. #42
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    The question I have is do APs actually enjoy their work? Or are they so wrapped up worried about dodging management that they can't possibly enjoy casinos and their comps and perks?

    Does it really bother the APs so much that everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling has to be a degenerate?

    I know people who enjoy scuba diving and sky diving -- things that I wouldn't do -- but I don't call them suicidal.

    I know people who pay thousands of dollars to belong to golf courses, but while I don't enjoy smacking and chasing a little white ball I don't call those people addicts.
    Like most jobs, there are parts of it that are fun and parts of it that aren't so fun. The actual gambling part isn't particularly fun, unless I'm on a game that's actually fun to play -- like some variants of VP, sometimes slots can be fun (although I'm not usually playing a "fun" slot if I'm playing one), and of course, if the advantage is upfront and you're making money then and there (as opposed to something that takes weeks or months to profit off of).

    The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular job.

    At least for me, I think it's kinda cool to be able to beat a casino at their own game. It's also entrepreneur-y, IMO, where I would rather provide for myself. I don't want to work for someone else, because that means I'm getting paid less than the money I'm bringing in.

    Sometimes you gotta worry & dodge management, but for the most part, not really. Obviously I'm going to try to pay attention to my surroundings in case I see something that looks a little fishy.


    Not sure why you think we think everyone who gets a thrill out of gambling is a degenerate. Just because we view you as a degen doesn't mean we view every other person in a casino a degen. It is telling, though.


    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

    Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

    Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

    And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

    Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

    And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

    One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

    Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

    And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?
    Why do you care so much about us proving our claims? If anything, there is plenty of proof on here and WOV for you to figure it out -- too much proof for my liking, but whatever. It is, simply put, just math. If you can't do even basic math, then you're gonna have a tough time figuring it out.

    IME, $800/hr plays aren't available 24/7, and I don't think anyone has made that claim, either. Finding the play is most of the work.


    Lol @ edge & variance comparison. You need a refresher on math.



    So the ONLY AP that you know, and it isn't surprising you only know one with a low income because most APs would avoid you like the plague, is basically your entire view of what APs are.
    #FreeTyde

  3. #43
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.
    That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.
    What losses? I rarely have a losing day. It's like taking candy from a baby. At least for me.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


    Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.
    Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all. You wouldn't comprehend


    If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?Keep licking those windows. I'll drop a box of crayons off to the stickman at Red Rock 4 you.
    FraudJ's word is worth less than the prop cash in Singer's safe...RIP

  5. #45
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    BoSox and kewlj and the rest of you APs: did you ever think that there are people who go to casinos and actually have fun gambling, and they are not degenerate gamblers and they are not using the rent money to gamble with?
    Sure there are. Aside from that, I would bet that most people who spend years posting on gambling forums are either AP's or degenerate gamblers. Since you are the complete opposite of an AP, that can only mean one thing.


    Got hitched at a craps table. Won 100k in one shot on VP and never had a winning year. Owes son money, son asking if anyone has seen his father in the casinos.
    Nothing has changed with me AxelWolf. I just want APs to show proof of their claims. That's all.

    Now in all fairness... we know that card counting in blackjack is real so no one needs to prove card counting. And I've received a video of a dealer who exposed hole cards, but we already know that hole carding exists.

    Rob never produced a tax return. Fact.

    And when I went to a couple of casinos and actually sat in a center chair I couldn't get a good look at the cards of nearby tables because of various reasons including the angle of the tables, the presence of other players, and the timing of the deals among other factors.

    Oh... those $800 an hour plays... they are written about as if they're always available.

    And I don't think anyone outside of the AP Club can understand how there can be anything positive -- EV or otherwise -- about losing $8800 in a day.

    One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?

    Oh, I forgot... that package really does include magazine clippings and advertising for Redietz and his successes. Was there any question about it?

    And just one more... I personally know one of the "APs" on this forum. I won't name him. But he told me that a year ago his annual earnings were $11,000. When I asked him why he gave up his regular job for that he said to me "I like playing in casinos." So, who's the addict?
    Alan, I don't care if you believe me or not. I owe you no proof. Believe what you want to. I don't care. And your AP buddy. No offense to him but he is not very talented. What he makes in a year I make in about a month. But if you don't believe that I don't give a rat's ass.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #46
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Bob21 wrote:

    "The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



    Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.
    Ok Bosox, I get you and your AP buddies aren’t entertained when you’re in a casinos. It’s work for you. I understand that.

    But what about the majority of people? Why do you think they go to casinos?

    Also, what do you believe a casino’s business model is? So far, I haven t found been able to find an AP who has been able to answer this question.

  7. #47
    It's great having boob21 on block. Don't have to read his ignorant blather anymore. Now, for all of you that continue to read and engage him let me make a prediction. When you zig he will zag and when you zag he will zig. Who in the hell wants to read his stupid ignorant shit? I don't.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    It's great having boob21 on block. Don't have to read his ignorant blather anymore. Now, for all of you that continue to read and engage him let me make a prediction. When you zig he will zag and when you zag he will zig. Who in the hell wants to read his stupid ignorant shit? I don't.
    Hey Mickey, if I’m on “block”, how are you able to respond to me immediately after I post?

    I’m just curious how the block function works, because whenever someone blocks me I usually get more replies from them, always reminding me they have blocked.

    You can’t make this stuff up. Only in the AP world.

  9. #49
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.
    RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

    But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

    So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

    When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

    If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.

  10. #50
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Bob21 wrote:

    "The ONLY value being created in a casino is by the casino. It’s the value of entertainment."



    Responsible gamblers may very well look at a casino visit as a cost or value on some form of entertainment. Ask any non-responsible gamblers if they are getting the value of entertainment when they enter a casino with the rent money. A number of successful players enjoy playing the game and the atmosphere that the casino brings. While their are others who are successful at the game, but despise the actual casino environment altogether. This latter group may play often or only periodically based on different economic needs. Still in this latter group there are some players who continue playing that do not rely on or need any income from gaming. I fall into this last group and speaking only for myself "I worked a normal job for many years" I play much less often now but I continue to play because I can and I am pretty good at it. Otherwise I would never play again. Out of all the many years I have played part time in a casino never once did I ever feel I was being entertained while playing the game.
    Ok Bosox, I get you and your AP buddies aren’t entertained when you’re in a casinos. It’s work for you. I understand that.

    But what about the majority of people? Why do you think they go to casinos?

    Insecurities, irresponsibilitiies, and false perceptions not necessarily in that order. Basically it boils down to many people are only living in the moment and are incapable of thinking about tomorrow which they really do not want to do. A need to impress friends and others with a care less attitudes who think incorrectly that they are fooling someone.


    "Also, what do you believe a casino’s business model is?"


    Literally putting on a facade that make people think they are having a good time, while simultaneously emptying their wallets.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.
    RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

    But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

    So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

    When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

    If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.
    The difference is, I don't need to "take vacation days". If I want to go somewhere, I go. I don't need to try to see if "they'll let me" and plan a month+ in advance. If I want to watch cat videos and Netflix all day, then I do that. If there's something I gotta do, then I go in the morning....or afternoon....or at night....or tomorrow or the next day, or whenever I want to go. I don't have to answer to a boss, I don't have to follow a dress code or wear a uniform. There is definitely some rigidity in scheduling, but it is nowhere near that of a regular job. So no, the freedom and flexibility aspect is totally 100% different.
    #FreeTyde

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post

    No Alan I never understood the concept.
    I always enjoy looking at the good looking waitresses who may walk by but that doesn't cost anything.
    That's too bad. I guess it's a rough life APs have sweating out every loss since their income depends on it.
    What losses? I rarely have a losing day. It's like taking candy from a baby. At least for me.
    You make it sound so simple Mick, and for you it is because of a few simple facts. You have work ethic and discipline, which most don’t. You are willing to do the leg work on determining if a play makes sense, are smart enough to use others finds and refine them. You have the discipline to only play when it makes sense and the work ethic to get out and find the plays.

    This isn’t a Mick admiration post, it’s reality. And the reality is most doubters on here and in the public couldn’t do it even if they wanted to because they lack these basics. And they are the same basics that most successful people in life exhibit.

    And back to where this thread started, does anyone think ZK has these skills? Of course not but no one could tell him that because he refused to listen. He knows better.

    It would be easy to say the things I would love to on WoV about him, and I could with no repercussions here. But honestly my only concern is him causing harm to others when the money is gone (which will happen) and he feels the casinos are to blame.

    Some of us know his name, have read his rants and I only hope nothing ever happens with him that makes me or others wonder if we should have warned someone. Sounds dramatic, but maybe someone did and that’s why he is getting backed off. Who knows if it is an act, but something is seriously wrong with him mentally and I wouldn’t want to be near him if he ever snaps.

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    The other fun part in being an AP is flexibility of schedule, which means I can go do stuff if/when I want. I don't have to be at work every Mon-Fri from 9am-5pm. If I want to go visit my parents, I can go whenever I want. If I have friends in town, I can hang out with them whenever I want. It's not completely "whenever I want" since I still have AP stuff I need to do, but it is much more flexible than working a regular.
    RS, this is the standard answer I’ve seen most APs give for why they like being an AP. They like the flexibility and freedom that comes from working for yourself as an AP.

    But pretty much everything you’ve stated above is also true for someone working a normal job. It’s called taking vacation days. Most people who have worked for a while get at least a month in vacation days they can take whenever they want and they also get all weekends and holidays off.

    So if my mother or friend come into town, guess what? I can take off work and enjoy spending time with them. We have that same freedom working a normal job.

    When I listen to these podcasts on GWAE, full-time APing sounds like an awful job where you’re on the road constantly. It sure doesn’t sound like APing gives you much freedom or flexibility.

    If you live in Vegas, you probably don’t need to travel as much, but overall it sounds like full-time APing is a very time consuming and demanding job.
    The difference is, I don't need to "take vacation days". If I want to go somewhere, I go. I don't need to try to see if "they'll let me" and plan a month+ in advance. If I want to watch cat videos and Netflix all day, then I do that. If there's something I gotta do, then I go in the morning....or afternoon....or at night....or tomorrow or the next day, or whenever I want to go. I don't have to answer to a boss, I don't have to follow a dress code or wear a uniform. There is definitely some rigidity in scheduling, but it is nowhere near that of a regular job. So no, the freedom and flexibility aspect is totally 100% different.
    Good reply. I think it really depends on what type of job you’re taking about. I think most white color office jobs are pretty relaxed these days. I know I can take off anytime I want without any prior approval. I extend the same policy to the people who work for me. They can call me up that morning and tell me they aren't coming to work for whatever reason, and I’m good with it. For the most part, no one takes advantage of me. Well maybe one lady, but she still gets her work done. I trust people and treat them like I’d want to be treated.

    The dress code has also got more relaxed at most jobs. We can wear jeans to work now, where no one did that 20 years ago.

    I think you’re referring to manufacturing and blue color jobs. Yeah, those are a little more strick on rules for taking a day off.

    The key is to find something you enjoy and make money at. If you enjoy the full-time AP life, then more power to you.

    When I retire, I do plan on doing more APing. I enjoy it and I’ve paid our government so much tax, it’ll be time for me to try to get some of it back through APing.

  14. #54
    To get this back on track, nobody is spying on or ratting out ZK. Backcounters are painfully obvious!

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post


    I have reached out to him to confirm that this is his position, because frankly I don't picture him saying that. I will let you know what I hear back.
    Since I don't have direct contact information for Stanford Wong, I reached out to Al Rogers, who was a business partner with Stanford for decades, running BJ21 and Pi Yee Press. Al contacted Stanford who says you got that impression from Professional Blackjack, but that you are taking his words out of context to alter his meaning. He confirms that is NOT his position.

    If you have further questions, maybe you should contact Al, who still is the administrator at BJ21 as well as Blackjackinfo. But the bottom line is that what you stated is NOT Stanford's position as you claimed. So stop misstating his position.
    Here is the direct quote from Stanford Wong:

    “My advice is to keep advantage play part-time. Do something else with the major part of your time, something more valuable to society. You will find that more satisfying than becoming a full-time advantage player.”

    Where did I find this quote? In the book “I am a card counter”, by Frank Scoblete, published 2014, page 102.

    If that is no longer Stanford Wong’s view on APing then he should contact Frank Scoblete and have him take this out of his book. If Al Rogers thinks being a full-time AP is a good career choice than my view of Al Rogers has gone down several notches.
    Hey Kj, did you ever get back to Al Rogers to see if Stanford Wong agrees he made this quote? In your previous post, you said Stanford Wong has backed away from this position.

    To me it’s not a big deal, but it appears to be within the AP community. I just want to know if I can continue to use this quote from Wong, since it aligns with my views on APing.

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    One more thing... if you have an edge why do you lose? If variance is greater than your edge is having an edge so valuable?
    The casino had an edge when you hit your $100000+ natural royal flush, are you going to ask them the same question ?
    It depends on how large the variance is. People won't play games that have too large a variance and these types of games will get pulled from the floor - so game designers must design games where the variance is low enough for this not to happen - this results in a variance where an edge is valuable enough to vulture/AP much of the time.

  17. #57
    The big lotteries are a good example of this. Even if the JP makes them +EV, the variance is so huge that it's not worth it. Table games progressives are another good example of this.

  18. #58
    Jbjb the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial.

    You guys are right, you don't have to prove anything and since I no longer own this forum or moderate it and since the content here is no reflection on my standards for accuracy and truthfulness, by all means, keep posting your claims. But keep in mind that it is unlikely I'm the only one doubting your claims. Carry on.

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Jbjb the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial.

    You guys are right, you don't have to prove anything and since I no longer own this forum or moderate it and since the content here is no reflection on my standards for accuracy and truthfulness, by all means, keep posting your claims. But keep in mind that it is unlikely I'm the only one doubting your claims. Carry on.
    I don't know what you mean by "the word you were searching for is entrepreneurial."

    As for anyone's claims. It doesn't matter. I've said before the fact that casinos bar people and are so paranoid that they use services like OSN, Biometrica, etc. is proof enough. We aren't here to prove anything to anyone and you should be the same.

  20. #60
    My apologies jbjb. It was RS__ who wrote "At least for me, I think it's kinda cool to be able to beat a casino at their own game. It's also entrepreneur-y,..."

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