Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 104

Thread: Inside the Edge - Blackjack Documentary

  1. #21
    Moses, just to be clear, the “church team” made about $4 milllion in 7 years, give or take a year. They are kind of fuzzy on their stasitics, so I can’t get an good read on what all is included in the $4 million number. I think the number I see quoted most often is $3.8 million.

    They had as many as 30 members, but most the time played with less. Some were part time, some full time. If you assume 20 members putting in 1,000 hrs/yr (which is reasonable if you consider travel time) that means they made about $28/hr. If you take out expenses, I expect they averaged about $20/hr, which is a little better than working at McDonald’s.

    My point is if you go on Blackjack Apprentiship website their claims look impressive. Who wouldn’t want to make $4 million playing blackjack? You have to listen to interviews to find out the fine print behind these numbers.

    The point is BJA is making money by preying on the greed of people. They are selling an illusion...that there are riches to be made in casinos by counting cards using Hilo. The reality is the people getting wealthy are the ones selling $3,000 weekend bootcamps.

    That has been my point all along. The real money is in selling bootcamps to wannabe APs. That’s why I want to branch out into the bootcamp business. And my bootcamp will teach other skills some APs don’t know about, like how to use different handles on different forums. Lol. My bootcamp will teach much more than just Hilo.

    Who knows I might even go over how to troll when you’re fishing. This is a lost art with the young kids, because they spend too much time in casinos.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, just to be clear, the “church team” made about $4 milllion in 7 years, give or take a year. They are kind of fuzzy on their stasitics, so I can’t get an good read on what all is included in the $4 million number. I think the number I see quoted most often is $3.8 million.

    They had as many as 30 members, but most the time played with less. Some were part time, some full time. If you assume 20 members putting in 1,000 hrs/yr (which is reasonable if you consider travel time) that means they made about $28/hr. If you take out expenses, I expect they averaged about $20/hr, which is a little better than working at McDonald’s.

    My point is if you go on Blackjack Apprentiship website their claims look impressive. Who wouldn’t want to make $4 million playing blackjack? You have to listen to interviews to find out the fine print behind these numbers.

    The point is BJA is making money by preying on the greed of people. They are selling an illusion...that there are riches to be made in casinos by counting cards using Hilo. The reality is the people getting wealthy are the ones selling $3,000 weekend bootcamps.

    That has been my point all along. The real money is in selling bootcamps to wannabe APs. That’s why I want to branch out into the bootcamp business. And my bootcamp will teach other skills some APs don’t know about, like how to use different handles on different forums. Lol. My bootcamp will teach much more than just Hilo.

    Who knows I might even go over how to troll when you’re fishing. This is a lost art with the young kids, because they spend too much time in casinos.
    Moses?...is he still around?...I thought him and Tater eloped and were having a lot of hot fornication under a bridge somewhere

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, just to be clear, the “church team” made about $4 milllion in 7 years, give or take a year. They are kind of fuzzy on their stasitics, so I can’t get an good read on what all is included in the $4 million number. I think the number I see quoted most often is $3.8 million.

    They had as many as 30 members, but most the time played with less. Some were part time, some full time. If you assume 20 members putting in 1,000 hrs/yr (which is reasonable if you consider travel time) that means they made about $28/hr. If you take out expenses, I expect they averaged about $20/hr, which is a little better than working at McDonald’s.

    My point is if you go on Blackjack Apprentiship website their claims look impressive. Who wouldn’t want to make $4 million playing blackjack? You have to listen to interviews to find out the fine print behind these numbers.

    The point is BJA is making money by preying on the greed of people. They are selling an illusion...that there are riches to be made in casinos by counting cards using Hilo. The reality is the people getting wealthy are the ones selling $3,000 weekend bootcamps.

    That has been my point all along. The real money is in selling bootcamps to wannabe APs. That’s why I want to branch out into the bootcamp business. And my bootcamp will teach other skills some APs don’t know about, like how to use different handles on different forums. Lol. My bootcamp will teach much more than just Hilo.

    Who knows I might even go over how to troll when you’re fishing. This is a lost art with the young kids, because they spend too much time in casinos.
    Moses?...is he still around?...I thought him and Tater eloped and were having a lot of hot fornication under a bridge somewhere
    Never mind, I just read for 5 minutes over at FreakZone and see he’s still posting all day long...I see he started a thread titled “When to get in and When to get out”.... didn’t read it but just figured it was about his filthy romps with the Tater lol

  4. #24
    Moses says:
    Even if someone made $2000 just one day in these little gambling towns. It would mean making $200 an hour and playing for 10 hours. That is a load in itself. Plus it leaves no room for those torrential downturns that WILL occur with a simple count and full tables. But imagine the pit failing to notice the good fortune you seem to having. My experience is they get twitchy at the $200 mark in a red chip game. Especially in a pitch game in little towns. There are NOT enough places in town to table hop and half of the places do not offer a game worthy of play in the first place. Therefore, I'd have to conclude that the God Lord, for whatever reason, has decided to shine his light brightly on Midwest Player. Master Norm and Don S would probably refer to this as VOODOO and it would end up in the older yeller section at BJTF. Who'd blame them?

    Moses, I was trying to show how seldom making $2,000 at the red chip level happens over a two period. It wasn't done in one day, but over two days. However, I have won $2,000 in just one day at the red chip level. It also goes the other way and I have lost more than $2,000 over a two day period just playing red chips.

    Now here is a little story. I almost always just play at the red chip level, but sometimes in larger casinos I will play at the green chip level. I was at a casino out of my local area and wanted a room comp. Before I started to play I asked how much play do I need to get my room comped. The pit boss said I would need to play at least $25 for at least 4 hours to get a room comp. He said if he saw me even just once drop my bet below $25 the deal was off. I tried to talk him into letting me play $10 a hand for 8 hours, but he wouldn't agree. So I finally accepted the deal and off I went on a roller coaster ride.

    The session had its ups and downs and I would make a big deal about how this free room was going to cost me hundreds of dollars when things were not going well. Well, the session did finally turn positive and after 4 hours I had enough play at the $25 level so I asked for the free room, well they had to check with someone else. Just some bullshit delays. So I continued to play at the $25 level, but I wanted that free room so I could start playing at the $10 level again and be under less stress. I think maybe around the 5 or 6 hour mark I got the free room comp and went and checked in. After check in I dropped back down to the $10 red chip level and would play for a total of 9 hours that day.

    This day turned out to be the best day I ever had except for some blackjack promotion I played. I made $3,225 for 9 hours of play mostly at the green chip level. So you can see the huge difference between red chip and green chip play. By the way, this could of went the other way and turned out to be a very expensive free room.

  5. #25
    Midwest Player, I went back and watched Holy Roller movie to see the size of their checks. At the dinner where they celebrated “closing a bank”, one guy got a $2000 check and he actually showed it to the camera. I have won $2000 in a weekend red chipping. Not often but I’ve done it more than once. And I didn’t go out and have a celebration dinner.

    I expect when the church team calculated their hourly rate, they did not include the training time. Based on some of the material on BJA, I epect they trained about three months for 40 hours a week before they played in a casino. If you include the training time, the travel time and expenses, and the playing time, I expected their hourly rate was probably about what you could make part time at McDonald’s.

    And working at McDonald’s or some other part time job, they would’ve been adding value to society rather than extracting revenue from state and local governments, which rely on casinos for some of their revenue.

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    People who use disguises, fake ID's, illegal SS nos., or any other type scam always eventually pay the piper.
    Do you feel the same way about those that use sockpuppets?
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  7. #27
    Moses, good comments on your recent zenzone post. Yeah, if there was big money to be made in blackjack, businesses like BJA wouldn’t be popping up to tell people how to do it. Everybody knows more APs just makes it harder on the rest of us. In the last two years, I’ve seen more and more young counters at my local casinos. Last weekend, there was a counter at every table, and one table had 3 of them. Some were pretty good. Casinos can only support so many APs before they’ll have to change the rules.

    People don’t like me calling APs parasites, but that’s what we are. We need the host (casinos) to be healthy for us to make money. The host (casinos) can only support so many parasites (APs) before they have to either change the rules or spend more time and money finding and extracting us.

    I expect what happened with the church team is it had run its course, meaning there was very few casinos close by they could play in. It’s a tough life traveling, and I read somewhere that the last couple years they weren’t that profitable. And after a while the excitement wears down, especially when you’re getting backed off almost as soon as you sit down.

    Since they had all this material they used to train their members, they decided to make a business out of it. You can’t blame them since it’s legal to do this. BJA is a basically a business training people to become parasites (making money off other business by not giving anything back).

    My problem with the BJA guys is their hypocrisy. They are constantly criticizing casinos for being this evil enterprise, even though casinos are doing excited what they are suppose to do. And then they use the same tactics (selling greed) they claim casinos are using to entice young impressionable kids to strike it rich in a casino. Their marketing material is very misleading claiming to make millions without letting people know the fine print...meaning it took years with a lot of people. They are much more dishonest than any casinos I’ve been too.

    Yeah, I figured my last comment would upset people and possibly strike up a debate, but the reality is casinos are a business and the ONLY reason our states let them into their communities is to raise revenue for their state and local governments. Casinos are like state run lotteries...they are basically a voluntary tax on its citizens. It’s okay to try to turn the table on a casino and win money from them, but this isn’t anything noble and it isn’t benefiting anybody but ourselves. This is just the reality of it. There should be nothing wrong with facing reality.
    Last edited by Bob21; 04-28-2019 at 07:05 AM.

  8. #28
    Moses, excellent responses. For the most part, I agree with you.

    I was thinking about your comment the other day about God striking down people with lightning that he doesn’t like. I know this is a common phrase used by people, but it made me think and prepare for the next thunderstorm.

    If God doesn’t like hypocrisy or pride and lightning is His tool for teaching lessons (basically the Old Testament God), you probably want to stay as far away from the BJA guys as possible during a thunderstorm. Lol.

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, excellent responses. For the most part, I agree with you....
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, good comments on your recent zenzone post....
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, just to be clear....
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, I just reread your last post on zenzone....
    4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.

    Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.

    So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.

  10. #30
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post



    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, just to be clear....
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, I just reread your last post on zenzone....
    4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.

    Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.

    So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
    kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.

    You’ve also been a contributor in this thread early on, and as usual you were wrong in your comments. This is actually a decent thread about gambling and IF it’s advantageous to have more and more APs in the world. I think I’ve even seen you agree with me on this point. You said you don’t agree with the Blackjack apprenticeship people recruiting and training APs.

    Yeah, I guess I could go over to Zenzone and reply to Moses, but I think it actually works better this way... having our interaction go back-and-forth between the two forums. Midwest Player also interacts with Moses in this way. Even Keystone gets involved sometimes. This is actually one of the better threads on this site right now. It even has your usual out of control ranting that no thread would be complete without.

    About thunderstorms and lightning. I think it might be a good idea for people to stay away from kJ during a thunderstorms too. Just to play it safe. Lol

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Yeah, I figured my last comment would upset people and possibly strike up a debate, but the reality is casinos are a business and the ONLY reason our states let them into their communities is to raise revenue for their state and local governments. Casinos are like state run lotteries...they are basically a voluntary tax on its citizens. It’s okay to try to turn the table on a casino and win money from them, but this isn’t anything noble and it isn’t benefiting anybody but ourselves. This is just the reality of it. There should be nothing wrong with facing reality.
    Bob, I can't understand why you continue to harp on advantage blackjack players being bad for casinos. Before the book "Beat the Dealer" came out, blackjack was not the number one casino game. I believe it was craps, anyway after the book came out the popularity of blackjack exploded and the casinos made more money than ever before. If everyone believed the game could not be beaten, a lot less folks would be playing it. So we draw in more customers to the casino than ever before and they are making more money than ever before.

    Now here is a little story for you. Our local casinos are pretty dead this time of year. I'm often the first one to open a table, and almost all the time my presence will draw in other players. They could go to the next table that is empty, but no, they sit at my table because they don't like to play alone and promptly lose their money. If the table was empty there is a good chance they would not even play. Also I always have a lot of chips in front of me. At least $300 in chips so it looks like I'm winning even if I'm not (This is probably a bad thing as it draws in other players which I don't want to do, but I need working capital). I've had players comment at the table "don't you ever lose". If I can do it they want to try also.

    Now Bob, you mentioned lotteries. We have a lottery in our state where half the money goes to the k-12 education and administration of the lottery. The other half is paid out in lottery winnings. However, money is spent advertising the lottery. It is a parasite taking money away from the other areas. Why do they do it? They do it because it attracts more players and they end up with an even larger pile of money. It is kind of like a few advantage players winning to attract even more revenue for the casinos.

    Now there are a lot of things we have that don't add any value to society. Take bowling for example. It doesn't put another loaf of bread on the table. It is just another game some folks enjoy. Same could be said for golf. What a waste of all that valuable land. Just another game some folks spend a lot of money on. Same thing can be said for casinos, We have them because folks enjoy them. That is there primary purpose. Revenue for government is just a side item.
    Last edited by Midwest Player; 04-28-2019 at 01:29 PM.

  12. #32
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Moses, I just reread your last post on zenzone....
    4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.

    Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.

    So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
    kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.

    Bob21, in my mind you are a no good rotten to the core piece of shit. Okay you interact with some members here including your buddy at the Zen Zone. Never once did I ever hear you chastise your buddy for making his constant threatening posts on a regular basis from ZZ. Put another way one can not help but think that you condone his behaviour. Upon closer examination it seems you instigate much of this crap. When your buddy was banned here It was you who suggested your buddy take on a female sock puppet when his responses started. This is all fun and games to you nothing more. In reality you are more dangerous than your buddy whom you manipulate at will.
    Last edited by BoSox; 04-28-2019 at 02:33 PM.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post



    4 of the last 5 posts by Bob21 have started with the word "Moses" and in the very first line referenced something moses posted over at the funny farm, known as zenzone, where he is the only current poster.

    Moses is not a member of this forum and for good reason. He is banned from this forum that it is almost impossible to be banned from, because he has serious mental issues. Physically threatening MULTIPLE members. He is pure nuts, as evidence of his posting at the funny farm, where he reprints entire discussions from a number of forums he is banned at, just so he can interject his thoughts, of which no one else is involved, nor cares. It is just him talking to himself. There is NO other active members.

    So Bob21, no one here any longer cares about this deranged idiot. If you have this strong desire to continue to worship and interact with him, why can't you go to the funny farm site as well, so that we don't have to be subject to this cross forum insanity that no one gives a shit about except for you and Mr. multiple personality (of which I still believe you are one of). GO! Go to the nut house and sit with Moses, play with your feces and mumble to yourselves. But stop subjecting the rest of us to this bullshit.
    kJ then put me on block. That will solve all of our problems, until you have some problem with another member or moderator, which usually happens at least every other day. You are wrong when you say people aren’t interested in what I have to say. This thread has quite a few views and I’m also interacting with Midwest player. You didn’t include the times I replied to Midwest player in this thread, but I think it was two or three times.

    Bob21, in my mind you are a no good rotten to the core piece of shit. Okay you interact with some members here including your buddy at the Zen Zone. Never once did I ever hear you chastise your buddy for making his constant threatening posts on a regular basis from ZZ. Put another way one can not help but think that you condone his behaviour. Upon closer examination it seems you instigate much of this crap. When your buddy was banned here It was you who suggested your buddy take on a female sock puppet when his responses started. This is all fun and games to you nothing more. In reality you are more dangerous than your buddy whom you manipulate at will.
    Mr.Botox, I think you are correct that Bob manipulates the other guy, but that`s only because the other guy is too stupid to realize it and has the brain the size of a raisin...besides that, I don`t think Bob`s a bad guy at all.....Moses on the other hand is a loudmouth chump...a lil whiner, just like he whined to me in PM ....I know many here in the AP and non AP camps think the other are liars, but I`ve personally never seen a bigger bullshit artist than this Moses fool...quite a sissy too

  14. #34
    Originally Posted by Keystone View Post
    I know many here in the AP and non AP camps think the other are liars, but I`ve personally never seen a bigger bullshit artist than this Moses fool.
    This is interesting. Why do some AP's think some of the non-AP's are liars? One simple reason....their math doesn't add up. They make claims that are mathematical impossible. It isn't personal, or at least doesn't start out that way. It is just that the math doesn't work, whether it be 18 y.o's in a row, or making a million dollars plus, playing -EV games, or a claim of being a 30 year professional gambler and professional blackjack player in Reno, where they only tolerate red chip play. It's all about the math. The claims don't add up mathematically, so we call them out on it and things escalate.

    Now on the other side, the anti-AP's challenge claims of AP's despite that the math works. There almost always seems to be some sort of jealousy or bitter feelings involved. It didn't work for THEM. They were or are a losing player, usually because they are playing -EV games. At times it appears there is some degenerate gambling issues at play. Whatever the case, they lost and lose money, so they attack the players that don't lose, even though these players have the mathematics on their side. And from there it escalates into a weird world of alternative math and "special plays" that allow results better than optimal play. We just leave reality.

    Now as for the person mentioned, I hesitate to do this, because he can't respond, but yet he does, so I am going to. Maybe this is small of me. But there are 2 quotes from the funny farm that I want to bring to light. I am going to place these quotes in green to distinguish them as his.

    "Forum's are a little like playing blackjack. IF a casino can't handle a 1 to 4 spread on a $5 table. Hell, I didn't want to play in the first place."

    I tried to tell people that his claim of being a 30 year professional blackjack player in Reno was bogus, for 2 reasons. 1.) he didn't have some basic knowledge necessary to succeed. Knowledge about normal variance and such. And 2.) Reno doesn't allow anything but red chip level play for very long. Sure a player can roll into town for a couple days, on a weekend and get some green/black chip action in, but a regular player playing regularly can't get anything more than red chip action. This quote confirms that is what he is. Again, it is probably small of me to enjoy him exposing himself like this, but this is a guy that has attacked me for years out of some sort of bitterness.....which leads to quote #2.

    "I could make a decent case for me being noble. Put 3 kids through college, lived in nice houses that were paid for, nice cars for everyone, rentals, stocks, big bank account, and I was 98% wage earner. I felt I like I did everything the good Lord expected of me according to HIS book. But sometimes hard work doesn't pay off and you get screwed. That life was really good. But a little disheartening to learn, after 25 years, it wasn't real. Today, it's not nearly as good, but at least it's real. I can deal with real.

    So I don't give much thought or concern to my being noble anymore - been there, done that. Maybe it's not a correct way of thinking. But I never ask anyone for anything in my life. Those who judge me are still the ones who also seek something from me. If I want to play some blackjack and bet some games I think I've earned the right. But no, I certainly wouldn't recommend this lifestyle to my kids".


    Two paragraphs....very sad and troubling paragraphs posted today in their entirety (no edit by me). I ask you to read these two paragraphs several times. Pay close attention to the repeated use of past tense, "lived in a nice house", "did everything right", "that life was good". And probably the saddest comment, "Today, it's not nearly as good, but at least it's real. I can deal with real."

    Now let me ask, does this sound like a 30 year successful professional sportsbetter and blackjack player? Or does this sound like someone who has lost nearly everything he had and takes solace in the company of his fellow degenerate gamblers and homeless friends that he can relate to. There is even the part where he is justifying to himself (and maybe friends and kids) that he has earned this right to play a little blackjack and bet some sports games if he wants.

    I honestly take no pleasure in revealing this one. It's sad. But I bring it up because it always comes back to the single fact that these guys that attack and try to discredit AP's do so out of a very bitter resentment. That is always what it is about.

    Good luck to you Moses. Find happiness.

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Yeah, I figured my last comment would upset people and possibly strike up a debate, but the reality is casinos are a business and the ONLY reason our states let them into their communities is to raise revenue for their state and local governments. Casinos are like state run lotteries...they are basically a voluntary tax on its citizens. It’s okay to try to turn the table on a casino and win money from them, but this isn’t anything noble and it isn’t benefiting anybody but ourselves. This is just the reality of it. There should be nothing wrong with facing reality.
    Bob, I can't understand why you continue to harp on advantage blackjack players being bad for casinos. Before the book "Beat the Dealer" came out, blackjack was not the number one casino game. I believe it was craps, anyway after the book came out the popularity of blackjack exploded and the casinos made more money than ever before. If everyone believed the game could not be beaten, a lot less folks would be playing it. So we draw in more customers to the casino than ever before and they are making more money than ever before.

    Now here is a little story for you. Our local casinos are pretty dead this time of year. I'm often the first one to open a table, and almost all the time my presence will draw in other players. They could go to the next table that is empty, but no, they sit at my table because they don't like to play alone and promptly lose their money. If the table was empty there is a good chance they would not even play. Also I always have a lot of chips in front of me. At least $300 in chips so it looks like I'm winning even if I'm not (This is probably a bad thing as it draws in other players which I don't want to do, but I need working capital). I've had players comment at the table "don't you ever lose". If I can do it they want to try also.

    Now Bob, you mentioned lotteries. We have a lottery in our state where half the money goes to the k-12 education and administration of the lottery. The other half is paid out in lottery winnings. However, money is spent advertising the lottery. It is a parasite taking money away from the other areas. Why do they do it? They do it because it attracts more players and they end up with an even larger pile of money. It is kind of like a few advantage players winning to attract even more revenue for the casinos.

    Now there are a lot of things we have that don't add any value to society. Take bowling for example. It doesn't put another loaf of bread on the table. It is just another game some folks enjoy. Same could be said for golf. What a waste of all that valuable land. Just another game some folks spend a lot of money on. Same thing can be said for casinos, We have them because folks enjoy them. That is there primary purpose. Revenue for government is just a side item.
    Midwest Player, there is a lot to dissect in your post. I wish I knew how to highlight potions of it and make my comments.

    First, you ask why I think APs are bad for casinos? That's pretty simple. Because casinos lose money on them in the long run. No business likes customers that are losing propositions. That's why casinos backoff and 86 APs. I'm surprised you don't understand that. If you ran a casino and knew an AP lived at your casino, would you just let them camp out and take you to the cleaners? I don't think so.

    As far as "Beat the Dealer", I get that this book made bj the most popular game in the casino and brought in huge profits for the casinos. I've read this story many times and believe it. But that was because people thought the game could be beat but they didn't put in the time to beat it. Casinos want people who think the game can be beat but don't have the ability to do it. Casinos don't want people who have the ability or bankroll to beat them. Do you think they liked losing $4 million to the church team? There's a reason those guys got backed off from 100s of casinos.

    As far as BJA, they are training people to become pros and take serious money from casinos. Have you seen some of the comments from people on BJTF? They say some of the people trained by BJA are some of the best counters they've worked with. Do you think casinos want these people in their casino? I know I wouldn't. Having more competent counters does not make it easier for us or the casinos. That's just a fact. The fewer competent counters, the better for all of us. "Beat the Dealer" didn't make a bunch of people competent counters.

    Again what BJA is doing is legal, but I don't agree with what they're selling. They're selling greed. They are selling the illusion of getting rich with little work. I don't think it's good for the young kids who have bought into this dream. Due to my posts being high quality on BJA (I toned down my sarcasm when I was on BJA), I got quite a few personal emails from BJA members who lived in my area. They wanted to play with me in our local casinos. Most of them had fairly low paying jobs and weren't the sharpest tool in the tool shed, to say the least. Yes, these people will just lose their money in casinos so I guess in this case BJA is helping casinos.

    As far as what adds value to society, you're completely missing my point. There are many things that add value to our lives that don't put "a loaf of bread" on the table. Going to a movie, a ballgame, bowling, an art gallery, a museum, an opera, a concert, sightseeing, etc, all add value to our lives. I'd add going to a casino and enjoying gambling can also add value to our lives. It's called entertainment! Our lives need entertainment. And the only "value" going on in a casino is that by the casinos. It's called entertainment.

    When an AP takes money from a casino, we're NOT adding any value to society. This was nothing to do with a moral judgment on what an AP does. Again, there is nothing wrong with being an AP. I am a part time AP after all.

    When governments allowed casinos into their communities, they did it to provide entertainment to people who like casinos and to raise revenue. They didn't do it because they thought some people would try to live off casinos. With this said, everybody knows some of the weaker people in our society will become problem gamblers and lose everything. And some people will try to live off casinos. These people are called APs. Our government and casinos want as few of these people as possible.

    And you are INCORRECT about the primary reason governments let casinos into their communities. It is primarily for economic activity and to bring in revenue. It's not a coincidence that casinos were legalized in Nevada the same year Hoover Dam project started.

    While I agree casinos need some APs to show people their games can be beat. It's in the casino's interest to have as few as possible. They want to all be like Max Rubin's casino. He won't allow any APs in his casino to gamble. He will only let them in his casino to eat. If you think casinos like APs, you should talk to Max Rubin about it. Better yet, why don't you open a casino and make it AP friendly, advertising that no AP will ever be backed off or bared. How long do you think your casino would survive before it'd go bankrupt? I'll give you a hint, not very long.

    This has got long enough, but I can tell you're still struggling with this stuff, but at least you're trying.

  16. #36
    Quote: Bob21: "When an AP takes money from a casino, we're NOT adding any value to society. "


    incorrect. when an AP takes money from a casino he does not then eat that money

    he spends it. on houses, cars, raising children, etc.

    contributing to the economy

    they also cause casinos to hire more employees due to increased action at the tables
    Last edited by Half Smoke; 04-29-2019 at 01:20 AM.
    please don't feed the trolls

  17. #37
    Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
    Quote: Bob21: "When an AP takes money from a casino, we're NOT adding any value to society. "


    incorrect. when an AP takes money from a casino he does not then eat that money

    he spends it. on houses, cars, raising children, etc.

    contributing to the economy

    they also cause casinos to hire more employees due to increased action at the tables
    Half smoke, here is what you and most APs are missing. If you didn’t win that money and it stayed in the casino’s hands, someone else would be spending it. No value has been created when you win money from a casino. It’s that simple.

    Casinos are a “zero sum” game. What does that mean? Money is just exchanged from one party to the other, based on some gambling proposition. In the end, nothing is created of value (with the exception of entertainment) when the money exchanges hands.

    In other money translations something of value is exchanged. Each party gets something. This isn’t the case in a casino. This is why the casino is the only party providing “value” in a casino. Casinos are like a movie, a ball game, a concert, etc. The business model of a casino is for people to give them money (in the long run...of course, in the short run some people will win) for the purpose of entertainment. It’s that simple.

    This doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with being an AP. It’s legal. I do it. But if we want to be honest with ourselves, we should also recognize we’re doing nothing of value. If APs didn’t exists, casinos and governments would have more money to spend. Casino employees and stock holders would be buying more things.

    If you believe you can spend the money better than a casino employee or stock holder that’s another debate. I’m sure in some cases that’s correct, and in other cases it’s incorrect.

    The debate here is what value does an AP bring to society when they win money in a casino. The answer is none.

  18. #38
    Fuck "society" and the rest of that liberal bullshit! I care about me and my family. Not you or anyone else's.

  19. #39
    Nothing you can do talking reason with a guy like boob21. When you zig he is going to zag, and when you zag, he is going to zig. Unless you’re badmouthing or he can manipulate you into badmouthing BJA, then he will keep on course all day.

  20. #40
    Quote: Bob21 : "If you didn’t win that money and it stayed in the casino’s hands, someone else would be spending it. No value has been created"


    If that was true then it would also be true that if you work for Ford Motor Co. nothing you did provided any value to society.
    because if there was no Ford motor Co. or you did your job poorly cars would be sold by other companies and other people would have your job - the money you made and spent will be made and spent by others
    please don't feed the trolls

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. What's my edge in craps?
    By Alan Mendelson in forum Las Vegas
    Replies: 361
    Last Post: 07-05-2018, 04:40 AM
  2. Gambling With An Edge 5 Oct 2017
    By mickeycrimm in forum Las Vegas
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 10-04-2017, 07:50 AM
  3. No House Edge in Poker???? -- C'Mon!!!
    By redietz in forum Las Vegas
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-03-2013, 01:33 PM
  4. Gambling inside the Diamond Lounges?
    By Alan Mendelson in forum Las Vegas
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-26-2012, 03:52 PM
  5. Inside the new Octavius Tower
    By Alan Mendelson in forum Las Vegas
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-20-2011, 05:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •