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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #341
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    I am NOT trying to shame you into anything Mickey. Nor am I trying to get you to change your opinion and turn on Rob. Please stop with this nonsense. All I am saying is there are other possibilities that You and Axel don't seem to be considering.

    Now about this retirement in 2009. IF this latest claim or caper turns out to be false, and his previous claim that he is still sticking to today continues to be mathematically impossible, what exactly was he retiring from? Playing VP at a disadvantage?
    Rob did in fact announce his retirement. Whether one considers his system to be professional play or not is irrelevant to that fact.
    Correct. I consider (and I filed schedule C for) the years 2000 - 2003 (where I won playing my SPS) and the years 2004 - 2009 (where I won exploiting the DU flaw) all as playing as a professional VP player.

    Which begs this question: shouldn't I receive a VERY SPECIAL invitation from vpfree for induction into their Hall of Fame? I mean....who exactly has accomplished (or won) all that I have by playing that game?
    I think you can get tax records for any year you want from the IRS by paying a small fee. If you've already threw them out you could probably go that route in procuring the evidenciary hard proof. I'd imagine then they'd have to accept you into the HOF. Who knew there was actually such a thing as a VPHOF?

  2. #342
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Rob did in fact announce his retirement. Whether one considers his system to be professional play or not is irrelevant to that fact.
    Correct. I consider (and I filed schedule C for) the years 2000 - 2003 (where I won playing my SPS) and the years 2004 - 2009 (where I won exploiting the DU flaw) all as playing as a professional VP player.

    Which begs this question: shouldn't I receive a VERY SPECIAL invitation from vpfree for induction into their Hall of Fame? I mean....who exactly has accomplished (or won) all that I have by playing that game?
    I think you can get tax records for any year you want from the IRS by paying a small fee. If you've already threw them out you could probably go that route in procuring the evidenciary hard proof. I'd imagine then they'd have to accept you into the HOF. Who knew there was actually such a thing as a VPHOF?
    Ron would look great in one of those Gold Jackets.

  3. #343
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Who knew there was actually such a thing as a VPHOF?
    I thought the same thing. Does anybody know if there is such a thing as the craps hall of fame (CHOF)? I throw some pretty mean dice. Maybe I have a chance at that one. Lol

  4. #344
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Rob did in fact announce his retirement. Whether one considers his system to be professional play or not is irrelevant to that fact.
    Correct. I consider (and I filed schedule C for) the years 2000 - 2003 (where I won playing my SPS) and the years 2004 - 2009 (where I won exploiting the DU flaw) all as playing as a professional VP player.

    Which begs this question: shouldn't I receive a VERY SPECIAL invitation from vpfree for induction into their Hall of Fame? I mean....who exactly has accomplished (or won) all that I have by playing that game?
    I think you can get tax records for any year you want from the IRS by paying a small fee. If you've already threw them out you could probably go that route in procuring the evidenciary hard proof. I'd imagine then they'd have to accept you into the HOF. Who knew there was actually such a thing as a VPHOF?
    Back when we had this tax returns challenge, we found out that we could ask for and pay for only a few years prior--like 7-years maximum, if that. And I think that was for transcripts. I'll look it up again and report back.

    I just checked and yes, the irs destroys records older than 7 years, unless there is past fraud involved.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 05-20-2019 at 04:59 PM.

  5. #345
    Congratulations Rob.

    Trying to catch up, but too much respect for Mick and Axel to question the disclosure.

    That said, I still think you would have lost any wager I proposed.

    Again Congratulations.

  6. #346
    Ron, why would you have thrown away your tax returns? While there is no reason for most people to keep them after 7 years, you are telling us you knew your were going to release this claim after 10 years and you certainly knew there would be people that would like to see some documented proof. Seems awfully convenient to say I no longer have tax returns, W-2's or any kind of paper work to back up anything.

    Furthermore I see some inconsistencies in things you have said just today. But I am just not going to keep going in circles. You are not on trial Ron, and I am not on the jury. If you were on trial and I was on the jury, it would be my job to try to convince fellow jurors Mickey and Axel, that they are not considering the who scope of evidence, just a narrow piece. But again, this isn't a jury and everyone should make up there own mind as to your credibility. So Mickey and Axel differ from, myself, JBJB, RS_ and some others in the community. Big deal. You have convinced some, you haven't convinced others.

    None of it is going to effect me, what I do or my finances so, I am not going to keep going in circles. Good luck in convincing everyone that you want to convince. Good luck in doing whatever it is you hope to get out of all this?

  7. #347
    Jesus Fn ChristKJ, it’s not worth it.

    Go keep doing what you do, keep making money.

    Live the rest of your life knowing you will out live the majority of us, or all of us.

    The time you spend arguing with others could be better spent finding ways to ensure your future if the environment you thrive in changes.

    Singer is a pimple on your ass and none of us have any obligation to protect others who may fall for his false teachings.

    Make everything you can, while you can. And spend it on what you enjoy.

    A wise man once told me “Money can’t buy happiness “..... “But there is a hell of a lot of it out there for rent”.

    As a single rich man in Vegas, it’s not bad advice.

    Just don’t end up in bed with Shadrock. Or do it if it makes you happy.

    Respect!

  8. #348
    Here's a little story you might like Ron. A guy claims he saw a purple being from the planet Neptune in the woods near his home. Of course none of the townspeople believe him, but he insists for years and years. During that time, this same guy has made other equally preposterous claims, saying he saw a pterodactyl flying in the same woods. He also claims that early one morning he saw a Unicorn drinking at the stream in the woods. The towns people find him to be totally not credible, loony toons, as a matter of fact.

    So time passes and our friend has a new claim, that he saw a bear in the woods. Unlike his other claims this is actually possible. Two of the better respected townspeople vouch for him, because they too have seen bears in those woods. Now does the fact that this most recent claim is possible, because there are known to be bear in the woods, prove that this person saw a bear in the woods?

    Well no it doesn't it still comes down to credibility and frankly this fellow has none. But Just as some of the towns people are mulling it over considering giving this guy the benefit of the doubt, he doubles down that he still saw a purple being from another planet.

    So do I think the guy saw a bear in the woods? I don't know. BUT, I can't take his word for it.

  9. #349
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Ron, why would you have thrown away your tax returns? While there is no reason for most people to keep them after 7 years, you are telling us you knew your were going to release this claim after 10 years and you certainly knew there would be people that would like to see some documented proof. Seems awfully convenient to say I no longer have tax returns, W-2's or any kind of paper work to back up anything.

    Furthermore I see some inconsistencies in things you have said just today. But I am just not going to keep going in circles. You are not on trial Ron, and I am not on the jury. If you were on trial and I was on the jury, it would be my job to try to convince fellow jurors Mickey and Axel, that they are not considering the who scope of evidence, just a narrow piece. But again, this isn't a jury and everyone should make up there own mind as to your credibility. So Mickey and Axel differ from, myself, JBJB, RS_ and some others in the community. Big deal. You have convinced some, you haven't convinced others.

    None of it is going to effect me, what I do or my finances so, I am not going to keep going in circles. Good luck in convincing everyone that you want to convince. Good luck in doing whatever it is you hope to get out of all this?
    For many years I always kept my tax returns for 7 years because I always thought that's what the law was. Then I was told in an audit by the IRS as well as by my IRS son-in-law that it was 3 for normal individual tax filers, so that's what I keep now. What you're doing is trying to read something into all this that's just not there.

  10. #350
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    And let's talk about "proof" for a minute. MickeyCrimm, who I continue to have great respect for, called this claim by Singer "a bombshell", "the biggest thing to hit the AP community is some time". Ok, if true I accept that. But this is Rob Singer making the claim. 20 years of lying about everything and anything, big and small. Is it unreasonable to expect some sort of evidence, documentation to collaborate a claim of this magnitude?
    The quotes are not mine.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  11. #351
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Jesus Fn ChristKJ, it’s not worth it.

    Go keep doing what you do, keep making money.

    Live the rest of your life knowing you will out live the majority of us, or all of us.

    The time you spend arguing with others could be better spent finding ways to ensure your future if the environment you thrive in changes.

    Singer is a pimple on your ass and none of us have any obligation to protect others who may fall for his false teachings.

    Make everything you can, while you can. And spend it on what you enjoy.

    A wise man once told me “Money can’t buy happiness “..... “But there is a hell of a lot of it out there for rent”.

    As a single rich man in Vegas, it’s not bad advice.

    Just don’t end up in bed with Shadrock. Or do it if it makes you happy.

    Respect!
    Sometimes I don't get the things that you decide to go off on me about Boz, or is it Bon? Anyway, this discussion is just that. It is a discussion about what Mickey says is a "bombshell" story in the AP community. The biggest thing to come down the pike in years. It's worth of discussion, is it not? Especially since the claim was made by a person who's credibility is what's the phrase I want to use....almost non existent. So I have voiced my opinion. So what's with this bug up your ass, Bon?

  12. #352
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    The quotes are not mine.
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Maybe one of these days the whole story will come out. If and/or when it happens it will be one of the biggest stories to ever hit the professional video poker world. And that is simply because it was ROB SINGER that found it. Rob's trolling of the professional video poker world, and his ability to get under their skin, have caused many to loathe him. That's the irony of this story. When professional video poker players everywhere find out what Rob was really doing, and the money he made, they are going to be SHOCKED!!.
    "Biggest story ever to hit the video poker world" vs "bombshell". really Mickey? you are quibbling about the wording?

  13. #353
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Jesus Fn ChristKJ, it’s not worth it.

    Go keep doing what you do, keep making money.

    Live the rest of your life knowing you will out live the majority of us, or all of us.

    The time you spend arguing with others could be better spent finding ways to ensure your future if the environment you thrive in changes.

    Singer is a pimple on your ass and none of us have any obligation to protect others who may fall for his false teachings.

    Make everything you can, while you can. And spend it on what you enjoy.

    A wise man once told me “Money can’t buy happiness “..... “But there is a hell of a lot of it out there for rent”.

    As a single rich man in Vegas, it’s not bad advice.

    Just don’t end up in bed with Shadrock. Or do it if it makes you happy.

    Respect!
    Sometimes I don't get the things that you decide to go off on me about Boz, or is it Bon? Anyway, this discussion is just that. It is a discussion about what Mickey says is a "bombshell" story in the AP community. The biggest thing to come down the pike in years. It's worth of discussion, is it not? Especially since the claim was made by a person who's credibility is what's the phrase I want to use....almost non existent. So I have voiced my opinion. So what's with this bug up your ass, Bon?
    Again, not my quote.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  14. #354
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Here's a little story you might like Ron. A guy claims he saw a purple being from the planet Neptune in the woods near his home. Of course none of the townspeople believe him, but he insists for years and years. During that time, this same guy has made other equally preposterous claims, saying he saw a pterodactyl flying in the same woods. He also claims that early one morning he saw a Unicorn drinking at the stream in the woods. The towns people find him to be totally not credible, loony toons, as a matter of fact.

    So time passes and our friend has a new claim, that he saw a bear in the woods. Unlike his other claims this is actually possible. Two of the better respected townspeople vouch for him, because they too have seen bears in those woods. Now does the fact that this most recent claim is possible, because there are known to be bear in the woods, prove that this person saw a bear in the woods?

    Well no it doesn't it still comes down to credibility and frankly this fellow has none. But Just as some of the towns people are mulling it over considering giving this guy the benefit of the doubt, he doubles down that he still saw a purple being from another planet.

    So do I think the guy saw a bear in the woods? I don't know. BUT, I can't take his word for it.
    And what you will come to learn as you hopefully mature while you gain experience through living, is that credible people who have earned that status over time, use their own experience, their sense, and their ability to figure out problems lacking absolute proof, as a very meaningful way of determining fact from fiction.

    I hope you get there someday.

  15. #355
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Jesus Fn ChristKJ, it’s not worth it.

    Go keep doing what you do, keep making money.

    Live the rest of your life knowing you will out live the majority of us, or all of us.

    The time you spend arguing with others could be better spent finding ways to ensure your future if the environment you thrive in changes.

    Singer is a pimple on your ass and none of us have any obligation to protect others who may fall for his false teachings.

    Make everything you can, while you can. And spend it on what you enjoy.

    A wise man once told me “Money can’t buy happiness “..... “But there is a hell of a lot of it out there for rent”.

    As a single rich man in Vegas, it’s not bad advice.

    Just don’t end up in bed with Shadrock. Or do it if it makes you happy.

    Respect!
    Sometimes I don't get the things that you decide to go off on me about Boz, or is it Bon? Anyway, this discussion is just that. It is a discussion about what Mickey says is a "bombshell" story in the AP community. The biggest thing to come down the pike in years. It's worth of discussion, is it not? Especially since the claim was made by a person who's credibility is what's the phrase I want to use....almost non existent. So I have voiced my opinion. So what's with this bug up your ass, Bon?
    Again, not my quote.
    Fine! Mickey didn't use the word "bombshell" His exact quote is "the biggest story EVER to hit the video poker world". WTF?

  16. #356
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Congratulations Rob.

    Trying to catch up, but too much respect for Mick and Axel to question the disclosure.

    That said, I still think you would have lost any wager I proposed.

    Again Congratulations.
    I understand and thanks boz. Given my age, you probably would have won at least ONE of those bets

  17. #357
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    Sometimes I don't get the things that you decide to go off on me about Boz, or is it Bon? Anyway, this discussion is just that. It is a discussion about what Mickey says is a "bombshell" story in the AP community. The biggest thing to come down the pike in years. It's worth of discussion, is it not? Especially since the claim was made by a person who's credibility is what's the phrase I want to use....almost non existent. So I have voiced my opinion. So what's with this bug up your ass, Bon?
    Again, not my quote.
    Fine! Mickey didn't use the word "bombshell" His exact quote is "the biggest story EVER to hit the video poker world". WTF?
    Kew, let me help you out on this.

    This IS the biggest story ever in the video poker (not gambling) world. Now admit it: because it involves me, it's knocked your socks off. Right?

  18. #358
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    --I discovered the flaw by looking for it or something like it, brought on by a motivation and vengeance for losing as an AP previously. I spent four years in doing so.
    Rob, I’m getting closer to believing your story, but I’m still on the fence, not that that should matter to you. I mean Mickey has me on ignore so I get what I think doesn’t matter to some.

    But this line here caught me attention when I read it. You seem to indicate you believe there are bugs in all programs if one looks hard enough to find them. Why would you think that? There had been no bug in this game prior to 2003, so it’s not like this game had a history of bugs.

    And I don’t see how your “motivation and vengeance” played into IGT obviously accidentally having a bug in this vp program after 2003. What if this bug wasn’t there? Then you would have wasted four years of your life looking for something that didn’t exists.

    I guess I find it somewhat hard to believe you spent four years looking for something that might not have even existed.

    But everything else in your story seems to add up. The more I go through it, the more it kind of makes sense. Still pretty incredible story though, and I’d have thought you would have made some trips outside Nevada to exploit it. I get you want to be cautious and not over do it, but I’d think you’d have been more aggressive than you were, knowing that at any time it could come to an end.

  19. #359
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Kew, let me help you out on this.

    This IS the biggest story ever in the video poker (not gambling) world. Now admit it: because it involves me, it's knocked your socks off. Right?
    Completely incorrect Ron. The fact that it is you is completely irrelevant with the exception of one thing. You have zero credibility with me, in part because you continue to claim you saw a purple being from another planet (the original Singer System that remains mathematically impossible). The two are NOT separate. They go to credibility.

    You have repeated this several times now Ron, so you want this to be true. You seem to want to be the bad guy, who is proving everyone that doesn't like him wrong. We have sort of moved past that. At this point, this claim which is unsubstantiated, is about one thing for me, credibility. And you have none. Whether it was all a game you were playing as you now claim, makes no difference, You have zero credibility. You chose that. And you continuing to double down on your Singer System claim, just adds to that.

    Mickey, how about a comment on that? How about a comment on the Singer System claims that Rob continues to double down on? (which continue to be mathematically impossible as stated). Let's not have this Singer System claim get lost in all this, because that continues to play into Ron's credibility, especially as he has chosen to continue to double down on the claim.

  20. #360
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Kew, let me help you out on this.

    This IS the biggest story ever in the video poker (not gambling) world. Now admit it: because it involves me, it's knocked your socks off. Right?
    Completely incorrect Ron. The fact that it is you is completely irrelevant with the exception of one thing. You have zero credibility with me, in part because you continue to claim you saw a purple being from another planet (the original Singer System that remains mathematically impossible). The two are NOT separate. They go to credibility.

    You have repeated this several times now Ron, so you want this to be true. You seem to want to be the bad guy, who is proving everyone that doesn't like him wrong. We have sort of moved past that. At this point, this claim which is unsubstantiated, is about one thing for me, credibility. And you have none. Whether it was all a game you were playing as you now claim, makes no difference, You have zero credibility. You chose that. And you continuing to double down on your Singer System claim, just adds to that.

    Mickey, how about a comment on that? How about a comment on the Singer System claims that Rob continues to double down on? (which continue to be mathematically impossible as stated). Let's not have this Singer System claim get lost in all this, because that continues to play into Ron's credibility, especially as he has chosen to continue to double down on the claim.
    Maybe to calm yourself down a little, you could go take a math class, then get back to us. What you'll find is that the Bell Curve applies to all of us--not just to you. When I say my strategy did in fact provide positive results for its 4-year life, and because it worked just as I expected it would do I've been teaching it or a variation of it ever since, what's "mathematically impossible" here is that someone who claims to understand the math can't comprehend that my strategy simply falls within the totality of that Curve.

    Face it kew. If anyone came on here and said they could go play video poker with a br of $57,200 and walk away with at least a $2500 profit, you'd be stupid to bet against such a thing. And this is even WITHOUT any particular type of strategy. Go ask TomSki, Dunbar, Shack or anybody else to run a RoR on that one. You'll see what I mean.

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